Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[infinitemeridian]

So the point of a Sanders presidency is to purge anyone from the party that doesnt agree with him

Very cool and noble -_-

Now you're starting to get it!

[JohnBrown1917]

At least he lives in the US.

You are some rando European that somehow is obsessed with Bernie XD

Coming from the guy that used to pretend to live in Colombia.

In case you forgot, leftist politics place a lot of importance on internationalism.

[Karrotlord]

So the point of a Sanders presidency is to purge anyone from the party that doesnt agree with him

Very cool and noble -_-

Yes, getting in Reps and Senators that will actually do what the people want them to is quite noble. Unless you're fine with the current Democrat brand of spinelessness and "centrism" that leads to the GOP running roughshod over them.

[Endus]

What are you talking about? His own personal political goals?

As independent from his platform. His desire to advance his career, his desire to be President, his desire to end his career on the highest of notes, etc. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

I don't see what Sanders is doing as an attempt to further his platform. It's an attempt to further his personal career.

[infinitemeridian]

As independent from his platform. His desire to advance his career, his desire to be President, his desire to end his career on the highest of notes, etc. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

I don't see what Sanders is doing as an attempt to further his platform. It's an attempt to further his personal career.

I'm curious as to how you would quantify such a thing. How could he convince you he's running to further his platform and not his career?

[Endus]

I'm curious as to how you would quantify such a thing. How could he convince you he's running to further his platform and not his career?

It isn't quantifiable, it's how his conduct appears to me. His choices seem more focused on self-aggrandizement than in achieving lasting progress in the nation. That he refuses to work together with Democrats save for when he finds them useful to his personal advancement is a key part of that evidence.

Like I said; it wasn't the first time he did so. It's that he immediately abandoned them once he no longer had a shot at the Presidency, and then joined right up again in the next election.

[Karrotlord]

It isn't quantifiable, it's how his conduct appears to me. His choices seem more focused on self-aggrandizement than in achieving lasting progress in the nation. That he refuses to work together with Democrats save for when he finds them useful to his personal advancement is a key part of that evidence.

Like I said; it wasn't the first time he did so. It's that he immediately abandoned them once he no longer had a shot at the Presidency, and then joined right up again in the next election.

Because 3rd party candidates get nowhere during the general election except spoiling it for the other candidate that they usually agree with.

[Endus]

Because 3rd party candidates get nowhere during the general election except spoiling it for the other candidate that they usually agree with.

I'm not disputing that.

My point remains that he's using the Democrats as a stepladder to the Presidency, because their policies don't have any means to prevent him doing so, even though he isn't a Democrat and won't remain a Democrat if he doesn't with the nomination. That's cynical and manipulative, and that's why I dislike him.

[Fugus]

That's exactly it.

I was pretty pro-Bernie in the run-up to 2016; I thought he'd decided to work to reform the Democrats from within, rather than being an Independent. And then he lost the primary, and stepped out, again. Fuck, maybe he was bent out of shape, fine. But then he joins again for 2020? That's when I entered "fuck you, Bernie Sanders" territory.

It has nothing to do with his politics, which I'm largely in favor of. It's entirely down to his poor character, from my point of view.

I remember back then, after the election, they tried to give him a token position with no power and gave him just enough representation to be overruled on any of it and mainly just hounded him for his donor list.

And we already know why he keeps joining with Democrats when it is time for the primaries and such, because they are the most like him and he doesn't want to poach votes running 3rd party. So he joined and he wins, then he goes back to his normal. If he lost and I would expect him to not run at all that time.

If we had viable 3rd parties, then he wouldn't need to do that. But, from what I recall during that time, they weren't really trying to give him power or adopt his stuff, they were trying to placate him and the main push for his stuff now isn't coming from the party even now, it is coming from the voters and many of the candidates who are running forcing the issues.

[Gestopft]

I do remember asking during the 2016 primaries why Bernie was running in the Democratic primaries.

Because Warren opted not to, and he thought Hillary needed a challenge from the left

[cubby]

This is kinda mystifying, especially considering there's the actually true black mark of Biden being instrumental in making it impossible to discharge student debt through bankruptcy.

Did Biden really do that? Re student debt discharge?

[Gestopft]

Did Biden really do that? Re student debt discharge?

Yeah. He represented a lot of banks/credit card companies in Delaware, America’s corporate HQ. In fact, the first clash between Warren and Biden was long before Warren came to the Senate, and it was over the bankruptcy bill that Biden had been pushing for a long time. Warren got Clinton to veto it, but it was pushed again and passed under Bush.

[Elegiac]

Did Biden really do that? Re student debt discharge?

Yep. Biden was instrumental in getting that legislation passed.

In 10 weeks’ time Joe Biden will lay “Joe’s vision for America” at the feet of Iowa’s caucus-goers in the hope that the first voters in the Democratic presidential race will put him on the road to the White House.

Among his promises is that he will fix the student loan crisis saddling 45 million Americans with crippling debt now totalling a staggering $1.5tn. One idea is to allow people struggling to repay private student loans owed to banks and credit card companies to discharge them in bankruptcy.

The pledge is one of the most striking policies on offer from Democratic candidates in the 2020 race, given how the problem Biden now proposes to resolve came about in the first place. Private student loans were largely stripped of bankruptcy protections in 2005 in a congressional move that had the devastating impact of tripling such debt over a decade and locking in millions of Americans to years of grueling repayments.

The Republican-led bill tightened the bankruptcy code, unleashing a huge giveaway to lenders at the expense of indebted student borrowers. At the time it faced vociferous opposition from 25 Democrats in the US Senate.

But it passed anyway, with 18 Democratic senators breaking ranks and casting their vote in favor of the bill. Of those 18, one politician stood out as an especially enthusiastic champion of the credit companies who, as it happens, had given him hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions – Joe Biden.

[tyrlaan]

because their policies don't have any means to prevent him doing so

Indeed. Thank goodness. Because shitty 2 party system is shitty.

even though he isn't a Democrat and won't remain a Democrat if he doesn't with the nomination.

I can't possibly bring myself to care. Tribalism is garbage and the DNC and RNC are garbage too.

That's cynical and manipulative, and that's why I dislike him.

I would have went with pragmatic and intelligent, but to each their own.

[mvaliz]

I don't see what Sanders is doing as an attempt to further his platform. It's an attempt to further his personal career.

...the dude's 78 years old and a millionaire several times over. You really think, at that age, career moves/evolution is his motivation? o_O

We are talking about the same guy who was getting arrested in 1963 for marching in the Black Rights march, right?

[jeezusisacasual]

I'm not disputing that.

My point remains that he's using the Democrats as a stepladder to the Presidency, because their policies don't have any means to prevent him doing so, even though he isn't a Democrat and won't remain a Democrat if he doesn't with the nomination. That's cynical and manipulative, and that's why I dislike him.

By that measure everyone is an opportunist, i look at like this. I only work for my current employer as a way to move up an ever climbing ladder and will gladly relocate/change jobs at the drop of a hat as i am only here due to financial reasons which if i can find a way to make more money in a easier job i will take it as i am only loyal to myself. I see no problem with this as it is common in the corporate world and by your standards once a Republican always a Republican etc. And for the record i am voting purely based on healthcare reasons alone ( this is why i still own own both homes in Wyoming ) anything else is secondary to me from global standing to military issues to even basic economic issues.

[Elegiac]

By that measure everyone is an opportunist, i look at like this. I only work for my current employer as a way to move up an ever climbing ladder and will gladly relocate/change jobs at the drop of a hat as i am only here due to financial reasons which if i can find a way to make more money in a easier job i will take it as i am only loyal to myself. I see no problem with this as it is common in the corporate world and by your standards once a Republican always a Republican etc. And for the record i am voting purely based on healthcare reasons alone ( this is why i still own own both homes in Wyoming ) anything else is secondary to me from global standing to military issues to even basic economic issues.

Here's the difference.

Everyone else isn't claiming some form of ideological purity. Sanders' supporters are.

[mvaliz]

No, he's not a millionaire several times over. He's worth around $2M, much of that from book sales.

None of this is to further his career though. He's fighting for the same stuff he's been fighting for since he got into politics.

Ah, didn't know his net worth. I know he had a couple houses so I thought at least 3 mill. So, I was almost right. :P

And, yes, the other part is worth mentioning that he's been fighting for these things for many many years.

[Wyrt]

Ah, didn't know his net worth. I know he had a couple houses so I thought at least 3 mill. So, I was almost right. :P

And, yes, the other part is worth mentioning that he's been fighting for these things for many many years.

I believe the third house was recent, after his book.

2 houses is kind of mandatory for politicians since they need to live both in their home state and in Washington DC. Would kind of be nice if we could eliminate that somehow, but I think it'll be a thing as long as politicians are required to be physically present for government.

[mvaliz]

I believe the third house was recent, after his book.

2 houses is kind of mandatory for politicians since they need to live both in their home state and in Washington DC. Would kind of be nice if we could eliminate that somehow, but I think it'll be a thing as long as politicians are required to be physically present for government.

Kinda reminds me how pissed I got between 2008 and 2016 when every damn neocon complained about Obama spending XYZ money to "Go to vacation in Hawaii" like he was just wind surfing and not visiting family.... what's he supposed to do, NOT visit his family for 8 years!? o_O