Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Fugus]

Here's the video the campaign EMail was based on. I don't know if there is a more complete version, it's what I could find quickly by following the links from the PolitiFact article:



He's clearly being sarcastic when he's talking about Paul Ryan. He mentions, multiple times, how the tax code needs to be adjusted to 1) not overwhelmingly favor the rich, and 2) help workers.

About the best you can do from Bernie's standpoint to criticize him is that he says, "wealthy people are just as patriotic as poor people," and suggests wealthy people are not automatically evil. He also says SS and Medicare need "adjustments" but specifically says it in a sentence where he says the tax code needs to be changed so we can keep SS/Medicare.

Your read on the video is just.....wrong.

That's the video I am talking about and your read is different than mine. He targets Medicare and Social Security at the part where he leans in and even at the end talks about how it can stay but "Needs Adjusting".

Well, that is a version of the video, they zoomed in more on this one, the original was zoomed further out with a CSPAN logo on it.

[eschatological]

If you can't tell he's being sarcastic about Paul Ryan in those two sentences, idk what to tell you. You know how I know? Literally everything else in the video, where he talks about adjusting the tax code to not benefit the rich, but workers instead.

Especially considering the nature of the man. He opened with a joke about how he should have Republican kids so when they stick him in a home it'd have a view.

As for "needing adjustments," every politician ever believes that. His sentence is about keeping them solvent, when he says "so we can keep SS and Medicare." Even Bernie talks about how to adjust SS/Medicare to keep it solvent, because currently, it isn't. You know how Bernie suggests we adjust it? By raising taxes on the rich, just like Biden was talking about in this clip!

[Elegiac]

That's the video I am talking about and your read is different than mine. He targets Medicare and Social Security at the part where he leans in and even at the end talks about how it can stay but "Needs Adjusting".

Well, that is a version of the video, they zoomed in more on this one, the original was zoomed further out with a CSPAN logo on it.

Your read seems to be distinct from everyone's except Bernie's campaign managers.

[Fugus]

Your read seems to be distinct from everyone's except Bernie's campaign managers.

I don't think I will be the only one to see it that way, and you can bet your bottom dollar that that will be plastered everywhere the entire general should he make it there. Biden is the one person Trump can most likely beat due in large part to that.

[Elegiac]

I don't think I will be the only one to see it that way, and you can bet your bottom dollar that that will be plastered everywhere the entire general should he make it there. Biden is the one person Trump can most likely beat due in large part to that.

You're implicitly admitting that this is a Trumpian campaign tactic.

I guess that's as good as we can get.

[Fugus]

You're implicitly admitting that this is a Trumpian campaign tactic.

I guess that's as good as we can get.

No, not calling it a Trumpian tactic. That would be a lie and taking it out of context.

With what I see in that video, it very much appears to be him talking about cutting Social Security and Medicare both when he leans in and later when he talks about "Adjusting it".

What do you think he means when he says adjusting it then? I doubt he means expanding them or increasing the amounts.

[Elegiac]

No, not calling it a Trumpian tactic.

You're dismissing whether or not Biden actually said what he did and saying "people will see it my way, because Trump will use this same video in the general election".

How is that not a Trumpian tactic? You're reaching to China at this rate.

[eschatological]

No, not calling it a Trumpian tactic. That would be a lie and taking it out of context.

With what I see in that video, it very much appears to be him talking about cutting Social Security and Medicare both when he leans in and later when he talks about "Adjusting it".

What do you think he means when he says adjusting it then? I doubt he means expanding them or increasing the amounts.

I said what I think he means: keeping it solvent.

Everyone thinks SS/Medicare needs to be adjusted. Even Bernie.

- - - Updated - - -

Hey look! A Bernie Sanders quote about adjusting SS:

MarketWatch: What do you envision as the future of Social Security?

Bernie Sanders: For many years now, we have had Republicans, led by former Speaker Paul Ryan and currently Mitch McConnell, and a lot of the media saying “look we are an aging population, we can’t afford to maintain Social Security, we are in one way or another going to have to cut it back” — maybe by changing CPI, maybe by raising the retirement age, maybe cutting back on benefits, whatever it may be. I think there has been a lot of misinformation about the status of Social Security, its financial condition and how we go forward into the future.

I look at this issue for a start by saying, does Social Security have a financial problem now? And the answer is it does. Right now, despite the fact there is $2.8 trillion in the trust fund — a lot of money — the fact is that trust fund will be depleted in 15 years. But having said that, that does not mean as people make it out to mean that there is no money to pay out Social Security benefits. Social Security would still be able to pay out 79% of the benefit owed to eligible Americans because of the revenue coming in every day. So we have a gap that we have to fill. That is number one, and that is absolutely doable.

Number two, as I look out into the world I see a lot of elderly people who are struggling economically. About 20% of seniors are trying to get by on less than $13,500 a year, which to me is impossible to even comprehend how anybody can do that. You have a lot of other seniors who are cutting their prescription drugs, pills, they’re unable to feed themselves properly. You go around the country and you find that the Meals on Wheels program has long waiting lists because people need at least one decent nutritious meal a day. So you have a lot of need out there and in my view Social Security benefits are too low, much too low. My Republican friends want to cut Social Security. I want to do two things: I want to expand Social Security benefits, make them stronger, provide more money for our seniors, especially the lower-income seniors, and I want to make sure that Social Security trust fund is solvent well beyond the next 15 years. Our legislation makes it solvent for the next 52 years.

We do that by lifting the cap. Right now, if you are a billionaire you pay exactly the same amount of Social Security taxes as somebody who makes $132,900 a year and that is absurd. Trump pays his entire Social Security tax contribution in half of one day and that is totally absurd. So you make the payroll tax more progressive by lifting the cap for people earning $250,000 a year, including capital gains, profits and dividends. When you do that you increase benefits, extend the life of Social Security for 52 years. I think that’s what the American people want and what we’re going to fight for.

[Fugus]

I said what I think he means: keeping it solvent.

Everyone thinks SS/Medicare needs to be adjusted. Even Bernie.

Yes, he means keeping it solvent, HOW does he mean keeping it solvent?

We know that Sanders wants to actually increase Medicare with Medicare For All and how he plans to do all that.

How does Biden plan on doing it? Increasing it, expanding it, cutting it? Because changing the way taxes work isn't adjusting Social Security or Medicare.

[eschatological]

Yes, he means keeping it solvent, HOW does he mean keeping it solvent?

We know that Sanders wants to actually increase Medicare with Medicare For All and how he plans to do all that.

How does Biden plan on doing it? Increasing it, expanding it, cutting it? Because changing the way taxes work isn't adjusting Social Security or Medicare.

Now you're shifting the goalposts. The initial argument, which you agreed with, was that Biden was praising Paul Ryan who pushed for cutting Medicare/SS. That isn't true, as you can tell from the context of that video. Now you want to argue with, "Oh, but how is he going to do it?!? Bernie has a plan!" Well, sure, Biden is often vague on this. But it's easily to look up anyways:

When former Vice President Joe Biden recently announced his plans for older Americans, he joined his fellow Democratic presidential candidates in calling for the expansion of Social Security.

“We should be increasing, not decreasing, Social Security,” Biden said at a recent AARP Iowa forum. “It’s within our capacity to do so.”

.....

To achieve those goals, Biden’s plan calls for raising taxes on the wealthy by “asking Americans with especially high wages to pay the same taxes on those earnings that middle-class families pay.”

Notably, the plan specifically rejects proposals to privatize the program or introduce means testing, whereby benefits would only be provided to individuals below a certain level of income or wealth.

Oh hey, that's the same plan as Bernie! Wow! So different! Biden so evil!

[Fugus]

Now you're shifting the goalposts. The initial argument, which you agreed with, was that Biden was praising Paul Ryan who pushed for cutting Medicare/SS. That isn't true, as you can tell from the context of that video. Now you want to argue with, "Oh, but how is he going to do it?!? Bernie has a plan!" Well, sure, Biden is often vague on this. But it's easily to look up anyways:



Oh hey, that's the same plan as Bernie! Wow! So different! Biden so evil!

No, I never shifted goal posts as I never actually said anything about him praising Paul Ryan. I said that Biden's video shows him supporting cutting Social Security. That was all I said, and it does.

Edit: I repeat, how did he plan on adjusting it then? We know how Sanders planned on it.

[eschatological]

No, I never shifted goal posts as I never actually said anything about him praising Paul Ryan. I said that Biden's video shows him supporting cutting Social Security. That was all I said, and it does.

Edit: I repeat, how did he plan on adjusting it then? We know how Sanders planned on it.

It's literally in the article I quoted. It's the same as Bernie's plan - he wants to raise taxes on the ultra-wealthy.

[Fugus]

It's literally in the article I quoted. It's the same as Bernie's plan - he wants to raise taxes on the ultra-wealthy.

No, that's not "Adjusting Social Security and Medicare". That's figuring out how to fund stuff. Not the same thing. The wording matters.

Now if you want to call that another of many gaffs on Biden's part, so be it for you. But he said he wants to adjust medicare and social security. Adjust it HOW?

[eschatological]

No, that's not "Adjusting Social Security and Medicare". That's figuring out how to fund stuff. Not the same thing. The wording matters.

Now if you want to call that another of many gaffs on Biden's part, so be it for you. But he said he wants to adjust medicare and social security. Adjust it HOW?

Again, from the very same article. It's easy to google these things:

Biden’s plan would improve benefits for individuals in several key ways.

It calls for increasing payments to individuals who have been receiving retirement benefits for at least 20 years. The idea is aimed at protecting those older individuals against having to deplete their savings.

Biden’s plan would also set a minimum benefit so that all workers who put in 30 years of work would be guaranteed a benefit equal to at least 125% of the federal poverty level.

The plan would also increase survivor benefits for widows and widowers by about 20% more per month. Surviving spouses currently receive 100% of a deceased worker’s benefit as long as they are at full retirement age or older. But many individuals take those benefits before their full retirement age, which reduces their Social Security checks. Plus, if the spouse who died was receiving reduced benefits, the survivors benefit is based on that amount, and therefore also reduced.

Biden’s proposal also calls for letting public sector workers, including teachers who are not eligible for Social Security, to begin receiving pension benefits sooner than the 10 years that many of their plans currently require.

At this point, you're just stalling because you've lost the argument. It's clear Biden doesn't want to cut SS/Medicare. I pointed this out by indicating he wanted to close tax loopholes, raise taxes on the rich to fund it and make it solvent, and then you insisted that that isn't an "adjustment" even though the original quote said he wanted to expand SS/Medicare.

This quote should show you specifically how he wants to expand it.

[Fugus]

Sorry man, I am off to bed, will check back another time.

But what I mean when I am asking how Biden is going to adjust it, I mean is he going to raise it, lower it, expand it, shrink it. Because raising taxes isn't adjusting Social Security or Medicare, it is raising funding to cover it. Not the same thing and Politicians can be really good in their wording when those differences matter.

With Sanders, we know he is going to adjust it, he is going to expand Medicare with Medicare for All. We know about that adjusting.

What adjusting is Biden talking about? From what I can gather, he is talking about cutting them for his adjustment.

Edit: Just posted and saw your response. I was not stalling I was stating the difference and what I was asking. Ok, so he is planning on increasing social security from what you linked without increasing the age or anything either with no word on Medicare. That is progress I guess.

But I was not stalling. I said exactly what the video stated to me and best bet it WILL be plastered everywhere during the general.

[Elegiac]

Sorry man, I am off to bed, will check back another time.

But what I mean when I am asking how Biden is going to adjust it, I mean is he going to raise it, lower it, expand it, shrink it. Because raising taxes isn't adjusting Social Security or Medicare, it is raising funding to cover it. Not the same thing and Politicians can be really good in their wording when those differences matter.

With Sanders, we know he is going to adjust it, he is going to expand Medicare with Medicare for All. We know about that adjusting.

What adjusting is Biden talking about? From what I can gather, he is talking about cutting them for his adjustment.

Edit: Just posted and saw your response. I was not stalling I was stating the difference and what I was asking. Ok, so he is planning on increasing social security from what you linked without increasing the age or anything either with no word on Medicare. That is progress I guess.

But I was not stalling. I said exactly what the video stated to me and best bet it WILL be plastered everywhere during the general.

Give it up, dude. You bought into a bad faith smear by your candidate's campaign.

[Fugus]

Give it up, dude. You bought into a bad faith smear by your candidate's campaign.

Give what up? As I said before, I mentioned this a LONG time ago, long before Sanders ever mentioned it. Again, you can check my post history about it.

I didn't buy into anything from Sanders as I had already drew that conclusion myself long before Sanders mentioned it. Again, you can ask Cubby about that if you want as I have mentioned it to him multiple times going back MONTHS, might be a year, not sure.

Edit:

Now, off to bed, night guys.

[Milchshake]

I believe Biden or Warren would be better at building consensus to get strong legislation passed. But on the other hand, Bernie is backed by a swarm of rabid locust people who once activated may be able to annihilate all who might stand in the way of economic equality.

Bernie commands this massive army that can move mountains but he refuses to deploy against republicans it unless the DNC reward him with power.

[eschatological]

I believe Biden or Warren would be better at building consensus to get strong legislation passed. But on the other hand, Bernie is backed by a swarm of rabid locust people who once activated may be able to annihilate all who might stand in the way of economic equality.

Bernie commands this massive army that can move mountains but he refuses to deploy against republicans it unless the DNC reward him with power.

Bernie strikes me kind of as the "fool on the hill"/ignored prophet character in American politics. He was right about this shit 30 years ago, but it was so unpopular then that everyone at some point in politics in the past 30 years has ignored him utterly and tuned out his ranting as background noise. He was politically irrelevant, before 2016.

But now the merits of his ideas, on their own, have been examined, and people (who aren't cultish followers of the grand jester) have adopted them as worthwhile, but don't want anything to do with the guy who has ostracized himself from all his colleagues for his entire career.

Meanwhile, his followers, who themselves only learned about him 4 years ago, insist that his 30 years of yelling into the void be taken seriously even though he had 26 years of barely accomplishing anything in the party he scornfully adopts in election cycles, let alone across the aisle.

[Endus]

Meanwhile, his followers, who themselves only learned about him 4 years ago, insist that his 30 years of yelling into the void be taken seriously even though he had 26 years of barely accomplishing anything in the party he scornfully adopts in election cycles, let alone across the aisle.

It's the adopting and abandoning the Democratic Party to further his own personal political goals that I find most distasteful. It's cynical and manipulative and selfish. He's willing to use the Democrats to gain political advantage, but he's not willing to be a Democrat outside of that political race, because actually playing ball with the Democratic platform isn't actually what he's interested in.

And as for the "swarm of rabid locust people" who blindly support Sanders, as Slacker76 described them; they're the Democratic Tea Party. How'd appealing to that base work out for the GOP? That they stayed home in 2016 because they preferred Trump to Hillary Clinton is everything you need to know about them, and how little they actually support Bernie's views.