Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[PACOX]

I am not sure why any one would care whether Biden or Trump won. They are pretty much the same. Trump is more right-wing on domestic issues, but closer to the progressive position on the military-industrial complex. It is like choosing to stick your head in a bucket of cold shit or cold sick.

Sure, you can point to the supreme court and say Biden is better, but you could also point to Afghanistan and wonder why Obama didn't pull out a decade ago.

Trump sounds like an actual retard, but then that really projects the truth of how America behaves generally. Biden just sounds senile.

Im don't understand what they don't get when people are being 100% open in honest.

Trump is an asshat but for many people nothing really changes for them whether it's a Trump, a Biden, or a Hilary in office so they couldnt give two damns about what the RNC or the DNC tells them. They know they won't participate in a charade that benefits them a lot less than some pundit that one comes around ever 4 years.

Trump is indeed a symptom. The pain of a broken arm. The Democrats want to put a bandaid on a broken arm and gets offended when the patient says they don't want it.

What do you mean you don't want this bandaid? iI's better than nothing!

[Lenonis]

Don't worry we already know when Biden gets 85+% of Sanders' supporters votes and he still loses you'll blame us anyway.

Like I said, we saw this movie already.

No. I'll blame the 15% of Sanders' supporters who didn't vote for Biden. ​As I should.

[KrazyK923]

Like it or not the political reality is we have two candidates in November. That's just how it works.

But you seem to be implying that Biden is just going to run with a "get in line" approach and not actually do any outreach. That's silly -- of course he well. After the primary is over. And you'll also see Bernie starting to campaign for Biden as well using the exact same message that the goal of the progressive movement needs to be to stop Trump. If Bernie says Biden is where your vote to go will you still say that it's all poppycock?

Of course not because despite constant claims by his opponents, Sanders has always been a team player trying to get other Democrats to win.

Like I said yesterday, my vote in November, if Biden is the candidate, is to look at the platform. If its just Hillary all over again and nothing is changed and they expect me to just fall in line, then I donno. I voted for Hillary even though I disliked most of her moderate stances, and we still got Trump. I might just vote down ticket. Then again it won't really matter in my state because Illinois will 100% go Blue.

[PACOX]

Honestly, the math isn't clear for either candidate. Both have serious problems.

A contested convention is still one in Biden's favor.

[KrazyK923]

No. I'll blame the 15% of Sanders' supporters who didn't vote for Biden. ​As I should.

No you won't lol. You'll blame them all.

Even blaming that 15% is fucking stupid. Its not their obligation to vote for your guy just because the other option is Trump. The onus is on Biden to actually outreach and convince them to support him. Not to just expect it and then be butthurt when they don't.

Also great strategy to just admit if people don't fall in line you'll blame them. I love the utter pomposity. You guys just don't see what you're doing even when people tell you to your face. Its astounding.

[Edge-]

A contested convention is still one in Biden's favor.

I'm talking about in the general, not the convention.

[PACOX]

No. I'll blame the 15% of Sanders' supporters who didn't vote for Biden. ​As I should.

Already give up on swing Republicans. Let's gang up up the minority instead!

Cant win without either, not doing a good job at winning over either.

[Draco-Onis]

No. I'll blame the 15% of Sanders' supporters who didn't vote for Biden. ​As I should.

Didn't you just blame Sander supporters for Hillary not wining? just making sure.

[Lenonis]

Please don't make me explain how being more progressive than Trump does;t make a person progressive.

I didn't say it made him progressive. I said it made him the progressive choice. You declared you weren't stupid so I'm assuming you understand the difference.

Your argument IS the problem. You think as long as Dem Candidate X is left of the Repub candidate then great. That line of thinking ends with the Repubs moving so far right we're actually worried Trump is going to just install his kids into the presidency in 2024.

You have the change to litigate that right now in the primary. If you are unsuccessful then we are back to the Biden vs Trump situation. Just like if Sanders wins then Biden's supporters should support Sanders as he's the moderate choice. This works both ways you realize -- but according the polling the only camp still in the race that has an issue with this is Sanders' supporters. The other candidates supporters are already sold on the #bluenomatterwho because they realize what's at stake and how political reality works once you are out of the primary.

[draynay]

Already give up on swing Republicans. Let's gang up up the minority instead!

Cant win without either, not doing a good job at winning over either.

Some folks here have done well in easing off their aggressive rhetoric, or are banned, but somebody else is always ready to step in with some "with us or against us" divisive bullshit.

[Lenonis]

Thousands of people who didn't vote for Hilary in 2016 just said "I didn't vote for the establishment in 2016 and I won't do it again".

And that's on them. They own their votes or lack thereof and the consequences of it.

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Trump is indeed a symptom. The pain of a broken arm. The Democrats want to put a bandaid on a broken arm and gets offended when the patient says they don't want it.

What do you mean you don't want this bandaid? iI's better than nothing!

Except what I'm hearing is that people would rather have their OTHER arm be broken instead of taking the bandaid.

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Then again it won't really matter in my state because Illinois will 100% go Blue.

I'm going to call a truce to bring up a point maybe we can agree on. I read a really interesting article that said that even in states that are clearly red or clearly blue it's still worth getting out the vote because the strength of the victory allows a certain amount of ability to use the bully pulpit to claim a mandate to push things through and make the opposition feel there is a political price to pay if they go against it.

[Edge-]

Trump is indeed a symptom. The pain of a broken arm. The Democrats want to put a bandaid on a broken arm and gets offended when the patient says they don't want it.

What do you mean you don't want this bandaid? iI's better than nothing!

Alternatively...

Both have plans to mend the broken arm, but disagree on HOW to mend the broken arm.

One side wants to take a less radical approach and hope that resetting the bone and putting a cast on it will be sufficient, especially since the patient is very concerned about the costs of treating their broken arm. They view this as the best way to address the issue and get the patient to get the treatment they need, even if it may not fully heal the arm back to 100%.

One side wants a more radical approach that involves surgery, screws, and metal plates in the hopes that that will bring it back to 100%, but isn't exactly sure exactly how they'll get all that stuff in or where it will go. They're hoping that the promise of 100% use of their arm will convince the patient that it's worth the high cost. They view this as the best way to address the issue and get he patient the treatment they need, viewing this as the only path to 100% use for the arm again.

Both sides think theirs is the best approach for different reasons. Additionally, neither side can say with 100% certainty that their treatment option is the correct and best one for the situation.

And currently, both camps are frantically trying to convince the patient that that other doctor wants to fucking kill them.

Meanwhile, the crazy guy shilling homeopathic remedies outside is just waiting for the patient to get fed up with the both of them and come back to him for a second round of treatment after the first round failed miserably.

[Lenonis]

No you won't lol. You'll blame them all.

Glad you know me so well best buddy. When are we getting together for drinks?

Even blaming that 15% is fucking stupid. Its not their obligation to vote for your guy just because the other option is Trump.

Naw. I'll go with people owning the outcome of their actions. It's all that nice personal responsibility.

Also great strategy to just admit if people don't fall in line you'll blame them. I love the utter pomposity. You guys just don't see what you're doing even when people tell you to your face. Its astounding.

You do realize you're railing against holding people accountable for the consequences of their votes or lack thereofs. If that's the hill you want to die on then you do you but I'm done with this conversation best buddy. I've made my point.

[draynay]

I'm going to call a truce to bring up a point maybe we can agree on. I read a really interesting article that said that even in states that are clearly red or clearly blue it's still worth getting out the vote because the strength of the victory allows a certain amount of ability to use the bully pulpit to claim a mandate to push things through and make the opposition feel there is a political price to pay if they go against it.

What a terrible platitude.

[jeezusisacasual]

And that's on them. They own their votes or lack thereof and the consequences of it.

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Except what I'm hearing is that people would rather have their OTHER arm be broken instead of taking the bandaid.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm going to call a truce to bring up a point maybe we can agree on. I read a really interesting article that said that even in states that are clearly red or clearly blue it's still worth getting out the vote because the strength of the victory allows a certain amount of ability to use the bully pulpit to claim a mandate to push things through and make the opposition feel there is a political price to pay if they go against it.

It is literally up to the candidate to earn that vote, it is up to them to concede or bridge that gap regardless of whom is running. I a former Republican will be flying back to Wyoming to cast a vote for whomever against Trump but i understand i live a far different life to others who have crippling student debt and a lack of upward mobility so looking at from their eyes i get the whole burn the fields as they retreat.

[Lenonis]

Already give up on swing Republicans. Let's gang up up the minority instead!

I mean...are swing Republicans a thing? I generally wouldn't expect Republicans to vote for the Democratic candidate... But sure, I'll blame them too. And I OBVIOUSLY would blame Trump voters for voting for Trump but that's in their (perceived) best interest so I don't have the same argument about lighting the house on fire.

Cant win without either, not doing a good job at winning over either.

Drat. There go all my future political ambitions.

[jonnysensible]

No. I'll blame the 15% of Sanders' supporters who didn't vote for Biden. ​As I should.

it means you failed to appeal to them. Blaming the voters is dumb. As we saw in the UK.

[Lenonis]

Didn't you just blame Sander supporters for Hillary not wining? just making sure.

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooh myyyyyyy Gooooood. I should NOT have to state every single freaking time "I only mean the ones that didn't vote for Hillary." Jesus people.

[Elegiac]

it means you failed to appeal to them. Blaming the voters is dumb. As we saw in the UK.

Like Bernie failed to appeal to black people and Warren voters?

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Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooh myyyyyyy Gooooood. I should NOT have to state every single freaking time "I only mean the ones that didn't vote for Hillary." Jesus people.

Get used to it. I’ve just given up with the “Not all Bernie supporters” disclaimer since nobody reads it.

[KrazyK923]

I'm going to call a truce to bring up a point maybe we can agree on. I read a really interesting article that said that even in states that are clearly red or clearly blue it's still worth getting out the vote because the strength of the victory allows a certain amount of ability to use the bully pulpit to claim a mandate to push things through and make the opposition feel there is a political price to pay if they go against it.

Here's the thing.

Why would I do that if I didn't support the platform that the Democrats are running on? Why would I try to give them a gigantic win to run a mandate for things I do not support? This is why I've always said that if Warren or Sanders do not win, I will look at the platform after the convention to see if I vote for the moderate candidate, especially if the margin of projected victory for Illinois makes it a clear lock for the Democrats.

I'll still be there voting down ballot because I want to keep the House and not lose any Senate seats (I still don't believe we have any chance to win the Senate, especially now if Biden becomes the nominee) as well as local seats, but why would I give a landslide-like mandate for a platform I do not support?