1. #15801
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    seems like a lot of people here lately take disagreement as personal attacks. speaks to how stressed people are over politics since the orange was elected.
    Agreed. I've been pretty consistent in my positions regarding Sanders and Biden. And the surprising clarity that the DNC primary has brought so much earlier than anyone expected might also have people on edge.
    No one is above the law!

  2. #15802
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Being moderate is the compromise (midway point) between right ideology and left ideology. If the dems side starts at moderate instead of left, the compromise then becomes the midway point between moderate and the right, which will be more right than left. If the right keeps going right, and the left doesn't stay politically left but rather just left of wherever the right currently is, then "moderate" becomes increasingly right leaning.
    its not a perfectly equal venn diagram though. there are more left leaning moderates than right, which is why the repubs went further right to gain more extreme votes while alienating the few moderate ones (for example skroe) they had left.

  3. #15803
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    You'd expect me to vote for a senile dinosaur just because he is Dem? You think we're voting for a idol contest or cheering for football team here?

    Wow! Ouch! " Poor kids are just as smart as....." Not seen or heard about that one before. Makes me wonder how many more of these type of comments we are going to hear from him between now and Nov. Thanks for sharing.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
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  4. #15804
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I have no responsibility for Trump. The first time I voted against Republicans was for Obama in 2008 after the pre-Tea Party voted against TARP in the House in the midst of the financial crisis. When your house is on fire - when capitalism was on fire - to talk about moral hazards and bullshit like that while people's live savings and homes were on the line made it so I couldn't vote for any Republican, and I punished John McCain for it.

    I have never voted once for a Tea Party republican, at any point. Not in 2010, 2012 or 2014. The last major Republican I voted for was Massachusetts Governor Charlie Baker, who is anti-Trump. I have not voted for a Republican at any other level since 2014.

    Furthermore I started to oppose Trump in September 2015. I was VERY early on the anti-Trump Train. I never really paid attention to him before he started to run for President. But when I caught up with the Birther shit, with his attacks on immigrants and the disabled and the press, I said "absolutely not". I was in effect, a Day 1 NeverTrumper. I was NeverTrump before NeverTrump.

    So no. I'm not responsible for any of it. As for moderates in general, moderation has build America's vast wealth, power and opened countless opportunities for its people while limiting disruption. Is it perfect? No. What is? But right or left extremism will open the door to far more disruption, which is simply not what Americans want nor is it in their interests.

    This country needs reform. Not revolution. The people who wanted revolution keep getting out voted.

    I said this in 2016. Bernie Supporters didn't listen then. They misread Hillary's 2016 loss. Maybe they'll listen now, since Joe Biden is beating him worse than Hillary did.

    America has the problems of any country in need of modernization and reform. That's it. Healthcare reform. Electoral reform. Tax reform. Institutional reform. And so forth. Revolutions are for country's with less going for them than we have. And Bernie Sanders, as it turns out, was at the head of a mere failed political campaign who recklessly used a hallowed word as a slogan, rather than a real revolution.

    In the future, let's reserve revolution for really meaningful things, like the American Revolution or the French Revolution. Not when a septuagenarian from Vermont decides to run for President.
    You ignored all of my point.

    If you want to sell a car and will be fine with getting $1500 for it, do you list it as $2000obo or $1500obo?

    If you know you list it as $2000obo then you ultimately understand why pushing the moderate candidate against Tea party and Trump level candidates is bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    its not a perfectly equal venn diagram though. there are more left leaning moderates than right, which is why the repubs went further right to gain more extreme votes while alienating the few moderate ones (for example skroe) they had left.
    I don't know how else to explain it. WADR, nothing in that counters or even really addresses what I'm saying.
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  5. #15805
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Being moderate is the compromise (midway point) between right ideology and left ideology. If the dems side starts at moderate instead of left, the compromise then becomes the midway point between moderate and the right, which will be more right than left. If the right keeps going right, and the left doesn't stay politically left but rather just left of wherever the right currently is, then "moderate" becomes increasingly right leaning.
    But you're equating a complicated political landscape to essentially a slide rule with just four marks on it. Which is entirely incorrect. Each issue has different perspectives and represents different factors, left/moderate/right. No one candidate completely embodies any one section that you suggested above.

    Picking what you think is a "moderate" candidate doesn't mean the entire country shifts right. Biden can come in left/middle/right on any one issue. So your entire premise is wrong, because nothing in politics is simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You ignored all of my point.

    If you want to sell a car and will be fine with getting $1500 for it, do you list it as $2000obo or $1500obo?

    If you know you list it as $2000obo then you ultimately understand why pushing the moderate candidate against Tea party and Trump level candidates is bad.
    Because social policy for a country of 360,000,000 people is the same as selling cars, right?
    No one is above the law!

  6. #15806
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  7. #15807
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I don't know how else to explain it. WADR, nothing in that counters or even really addresses what I'm saying.
    i get what you're saying, but you are looking at wrong. the "midway point" has stayed the same, and by moving right the repubs have actually pushed more people to the left that were once in the right bubble.
    you think it went like
    (left)---(mid)---(right)
    to
    --------(left)---(mid)---(right)--->
    when what actually happened was
    (left)---(mid)---(right)
    to
    (left)-(mid)-------(right)-->
    thats why moderate candidates kept gravitating to the left side more, they were abandoned.

  8. #15808
    I still find it funny people are still trying to hold Biden to pre-Trump standards. Literally every gaff I see of him Trump has done something dumber and worse of the sort. As if the bar has never been lowered.

  9. #15809
    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    I still find it funny people are still trying to hold Biden to pre-Trump standards. Literally every gaff I see of him Trump has done something dumber and worse of the sort. As if the bar has never been lowered.
    Trump was a gift from God for the establishments democrats. Now they get to dangle a puppet for them to control as the "electable" candidate, and get swarms of "scared of Orange man" voters that follow CNN & MSNBC "electability" talking points. "Just ignore everything wrong Biden does, because he's the most 'electable'." "Bernie honeymooned in Russia!" "Bernie Bros!" *ignores Joe biden's problems and gaffs*
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2020-03-12 at 12:04 AM.

  10. #15810
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    They will. Because they will age and their priorities will change. 2008's hope and change voters are today's Biden "Establishment" voters. Bernie's voters largely couldn't vote in 2008.

    The slow pressures of time and life will fracture Bernie's half baked revolution.

    Secondly, Joe Biden is triage. But the problems in this country need reform, not revolution. Bernie Sanders and his supporters presume very much when they imagine the solutions to them. They have not won the argument. Not by a long shot.

    You can start by winning elections for more than just one Bernard Sanders's held Senate seat and a few House representatives.
    Do not get me wrong I will vote for a shit sandwich if it has a D in front of it instead of Trump but Biden and the democrats are going to do Obama 2.0 redux. If as it looks like it is the US is going into a slow down or recession president Biden will do the same thing Obama did. The movements you so despise are going to grow not get better Biden will institute zero reforms that will address the reason why so many Americans are angry.

    It should disturb you that even with everything Trump has done he has a very good chance of winning. That means someone with even 10% more brains could easily turn this country any way they want that doesn't happen in a country where everything is working. Biden wants to go back to the good old days those days are gone you cannot pretend Trump didn't happen. Biden is not triage he is delaying dealing with the problem and if he acts just like Obama he will be like pouring gasoline onto a fire.

  11. #15811
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    How? Just fucking how is he worse than Trump?
    not being worse than trump is not a qualifier for getting my vote. and so far his voting history hasn't convinced of anything other than biden will do whatever and say whatever to get elected and is basically more like a right leaning moderate. not a candidate i'm interested in.
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  12. #15812
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But you're equating a complicated political landscape to essentially a slide rule with just four marks on it. Which is entirely incorrect. Each issue has different perspectives and represents different factors, left/moderate/right. No one candidate completely embodies any one section that you suggested above.

    Picking what you think is a "moderate" candidate doesn't mean the entire country shifts right. Biden can come in left/middle/right on any one issue. So your entire premise is wrong, because nothing in politics is simple.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because social policy for a country of 360,000,000 people is the same as selling cars, right?
    Yes.

    Look at what has happened Cubby.......

    W was more right than Dole. The Tea Party was more right than W. The repubs then tried moderate, got clobbered again, then went the full 9 into batshit alt right with Trump. Each time, the left has become progressively more center to center right. So much so, the big grand super liberal piece of legislation, the ACA is the conservative created answer to single payer.

    You guys keep capitulate before you even get to the fucking table. You bring a candidate/legislation/whatever to the discussions already at what you think he compromise should be. And when people who actually have left ideals voice their concern you shout them down and tell them they are crazy and wrong, meanwhile the whole fucking country is moving more and more right. That is fact, open your eyes guys.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    i get what you're saying, but you are looking at wrong. the "midway point" has stayed the same, and by moving right the repubs have actually pushed more people to the left that were once in the right bubble.
    you think it went like
    (left)---(mid)---(right)
    to
    --------(left)---(mid)---(right)--->
    when what actually happened was
    (left)---(mid)---(right)
    to
    (left)-(mid)-------(right)-->
    thats why moderate candidates kept gravitating to the left side more, they were abandoned.
    No it hasn't. Biden is not a liberal. He is center right. Hillary was more right than Obama and Obama was more right than Bill.
    M.A.A.A. Make America Adult Again

  13. #15813
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    He is a status-quo dinosaur, a creep,just as corrupt but a more senile version of Trump. He can't even distinguish Tuesday from Thursday
    wtf?! are you just throwing shit at the wall and trying to see what garbage sticks?
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  14. #15814
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    just venting your spleen then?
    You haven't contributed anything of value to this conversation for some time now. Are you shooting for a record?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Not at all. You accused me of using authoritarian language. I explained it's not authoritarian language.

    <Bernie hate boner stuff>
    So "kiss the ring" is a phrase commonly used in a democracy? You keep making this about something it's not. I know you like bashing Sanders and his supporters, but they're irrelevant to the call out that was made at you (which was not originally me as a reminder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Do not get me wrong I will vote for a shit sandwich if it has a D in front of it instead of Trump but Biden and the democrats are going to do Obama 2.0 redux. If as it looks like it is the US is going into a slow down or recession president Biden will do the same thing Obama did. The movements you so despise are going to grow not get better Biden will institute zero reforms that will address the reason why so many Americans are angry.

    It should disturb you that even with everything Trump has done he has a very good chance of winning. That means someone with even 10% more brains could easily turn this country any way they want that doesn't happen in a country where everything is working. Biden wants to go back to the good old days those days are gone you cannot pretend Trump didn't happen. Biden is not triage he is delaying dealing with the problem and if he acts just like Obama he will be like pouring gasoline onto a fire.
    Too many folks disinterested in hearing this and just want us all to be happy with whatever we get.

  15. #15815
    No it hasn't. Biden is not a liberal. He is center right. Hillary was more right than Obama and Obama was more right than Bill.
    you're ignoring that both were much more to the left than their opponents, which proves my point. the right abandoned its moderates which were then folded into the left.
    i am going by american standards, cause america has never had a strong left (the actual progressive party died out shortly after it was born long ago). its not worth comparing to europe, which is a mistake i see a lot here do lately (egged on by europeans).

  16. #15816
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    i'm just going off the data- biden wouldn't be picking up demographics that went for bernie & trump if "moderate" was the issue. in fact moderate turnout increased.
    repubs drove away moderates/independents with their terrible history on race relations & obsession with ayn rand.
    bernie fans keep saying, "drive away this vital voting demographic because i don't like them!".
    well, didn't work out so well for bernie.
    you guys went off the data last time and look what happened....
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  17. #15817
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    You haven't contributed anything of value to this conversation for some time now. Are you shooting for a record?
    lol, thats a yes then.

  18. #15818
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    you're ignoring that both were much more to the left than their opponents, which proves my point. the right abandoned its moderates which were then folded into the left.
    i am going by american standards, cause america has never had a strong left (the actual progressive party died out shortly after it was born long ago). its not worth comparing to europe, which is a mistake i see a lot here do lately (egged on by europeans).
    No I'm not and no it doesn't;t.

    Being left of your opponent doesn't make you left or moderate.
    M.A.A.A. Make America Adult Again

  19. #15819
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    you guys went off the data last time and look what happened....
    maybe bernie would have done better if he had as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    No I'm not and no it doesn't;t.

    Being left of your opponent doesn't make you left or moderate.
    how strange, weren't you just saying its all relative?

  20. #15820
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    lol, thats a yes then.
    Wow, that's certainly a unique interpretation. Good try though.

    I'm not replying to you further because its a waste of time and you've already nearly derailed the thread once. So moving on. I look forward to your pithy last word response.

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