1. #15021
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    It would be awesome if people could manage to not immediately interpret criticism of Biden or moderate dems or establishment dems as "I'm not going to vote for the dem candidate unless it's Bernie".

    But I think I'm expecting too much.
    just venting your spleen then?

  2. #15022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    There’s considerably more spite and viciousness aimed at Bernie supporters than vice versa.
    This has been made very clear the past couple days. It's really sad.

  3. #15023
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    This has been made very clear the past couple days. It's really sad.
    if they can't take their own medicine, should probably stay out of politics then.

  4. #15024
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    "you guys" lol.
    see that is what I am worried about
    "he's your candidate I am not voting for him..... Bernie 2024!!!"
    heh..Bernie will be turning 79 Sept of this year...Pretty sure he won't try in '24.

  5. #15025
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    And this is what people like you don't get Trump supporters won't vanish anymore than Bernie supporters will. Joe Biden is at best a stop gap measure for fundamental problems in this country. When Trump 2.0 gets elected you can look fondly on the rest stop to madness.
    They will. Because they will age and their priorities will change. 2008's hope and change voters are today's Biden "Establishment" voters. Bernie's voters largely couldn't vote in 2008.

    The slow pressures of time and life will fracture Bernie's half baked revolution.

    Secondly, Joe Biden is triage. But the problems in this country need reform, not revolution. Bernie Sanders and his supporters presume very much when they imagine the solutions to them. They have not won the argument. Not by a long shot.

    You can start by winning elections for more than just one Bernard Sanders's held Senate seat and a few House representatives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    Cool story bro. Basically a non sequitur, but cool.
    Not at all. You accused me of using authoritarian language. I explained it's not authoritarian language.

    Simply put: I'm not going to coddle the vanquished Bernie supporters who spent January and February living in a universe of arrogant presumption about how things were going to go and the initiative they had. Especially when I called precisely why they would fail back in August/September 2019.

    But most of all, I'm not going to allow any Bernie supporter one iota of space on the topic of "well I just won't vote". The only reasonable response is to say "okay, no problem. We don't need you anyway because you don't live in the 6 states that matter."

    I'm mentioning that on purpose, because after Super Tuesday, the BernieBros here kept living in that alternate reality where the national popular vote mattered and people power and all that crap had currency.

    The only number that matters is 270.

  6. #15026
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    At some point, you guys who vote moderate, need to start accepting responsibility for Trump. Sure the government should run better with a moderate take, but that only happens when each side is equally yoked in their respective directions....the mid point between two is moderate. The problem is the right is far right and the left is already moderate to center right. The mid point, between that and far right is still pretty far right of center.

    The further the right goes, the more the left goes right. That’s how Trump happens.
    I have no responsibility for Trump. The first time I voted against Republicans was for Obama in 2008 after the pre-Tea Party voted against TARP in the House in the midst of the financial crisis. When your house is on fire - when capitalism was on fire - to talk about moral hazards and bullshit like that while people's live savings and homes were on the line made it so I couldn't vote for any Republican, and I punished John McCain for it.

    I have never voted once for a Tea Party republican, at any point. Not in 2010, 2012 or 2014. The last major Republican I voted for was Massachusetts Governor Charlie Baker, who is anti-Trump. I have not voted for a Republican at any other level since 2014.

    Furthermore I started to oppose Trump in September 2015. I was VERY early on the anti-Trump Train. I never really paid attention to him before he started to run for President. But when I caught up with the Birther shit, with his attacks on immigrants and the disabled and the press, I said "absolutely not". I was in effect, a Day 1 NeverTrumper. I was NeverTrump before NeverTrump.

    So no. I'm not responsible for any of it. As for moderates in general, moderation has build America's vast wealth, power and opened countless opportunities for its people while limiting disruption. Is it perfect? No. What is? But right or left extremism will open the door to far more disruption, which is simply not what Americans want nor is it in their interests.

    This country needs reform. Not revolution. The people who wanted revolution keep getting out voted.

    I said this in 2016. Bernie Supporters didn't listen then. They misread Hillary's 2016 loss. Maybe they'll listen now, since Joe Biden is beating him worse than Hillary did.

    America has the problems of any country in need of modernization and reform. That's it. Healthcare reform. Electoral reform. Tax reform. Institutional reform. And so forth. Revolutions are for country's with less going for them than we have. And Bernie Sanders, as it turns out, was at the head of a mere failed political campaign who recklessly used a hallowed word as a slogan, rather than a real revolution.

    In the future, let's reserve revolution for really meaningful things, like the American Revolution or the French Revolution. Not when a septuagenarian from Vermont decides to run for President.

  7. #15027
    Yeah, you have to be 35 by voting time...

  8. #15028
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    AOC will be old enough by then. :P
    Edit:
    Actually she'll be old enough by November. Do you have to be 35 to run or just to be sworn in? I don't know if that's ever been a thing?
    i like her, but imo she would be better off getting more achievements under her belt & building a greater coalition in congress, if she makes it that far.

  9. #15029
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    i guess i don't, explain again how trump was a reaction to moderate policies?
    Being moderate is the compromise (midway point) between right ideology and left ideology. If the dems side starts at moderate instead of left, the compromise then becomes the midway point between moderate and the right, which will be more right than left. If the right keeps going right, and the left doesn't stay politically left but rather just left of wherever the right currently is, then "moderate" becomes increasingly right leaning.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  10. #15030
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    AOC will be old enough by then. :P


    Edit:
    Actually she'll be old enough by November. Do you have to be 35 to run or just to be sworn in? I don't know if that's ever been a thing?
    A corner case that has never been tested. But it probably means sworn in, since the Constitution only speaks to the legal requirements for office and not campaigns. Technically speaking, the Campaign for President can be held within a day if the country wanted it. It would still fulfil the constitutional requirement so long as the electors were chosen. It is a political choice of the country to have a year long campaign and a political choice to even hold elections in November (we can change it via law, and it used to be in a different time of year).

    The short of it is, the constitution says nothing about campaigns and a person only "becomes" President at the anointed time (the swearing in is not a legal requirement). So long as they are 35 by then, logically, it should be fine.

    But 35 would also be the number of states AOC would lose in 2024.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Yeah, you have to be 35 by voting time...
    Do you? The Constitution just specifies (implicitly) when they assume office, not when the public or electoral vote is held.

  11. #15031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    AOC will be old enough by then. :P


    Edit:
    Actually she'll be old enough by November. Do you have to be 35 to run or just to be sworn in? I don't know if that's ever been a thing?
    When sworn in, I think.

    But don't worry, they'll find a way to paint her as racist or out of touch or whatever in the same way they are doing to Sanders.

  12. #15032
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    seems like a lot of people here lately take disagreement as personal attacks. speaks to how stressed people are over politics since the orange was elected.
    Agreed. I've been pretty consistent in my positions regarding Sanders and Biden. And the surprising clarity that the DNC primary has brought so much earlier than anyone expected might also have people on edge.

  13. #15033
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Being moderate is the compromise (midway point) between right ideology and left ideology. If the dems side starts at moderate instead of left, the compromise then becomes the midway point between moderate and the right, which will be more right than left. If the right keeps going right, and the left doesn't stay politically left but rather just left of wherever the right currently is, then "moderate" becomes increasingly right leaning.
    its not a perfectly equal venn diagram though. there are more left leaning moderates than right, which is why the repubs went further right to gain more extreme votes while alienating the few moderate ones (for example skroe) they had left.

  14. #15034
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    You'd expect me to vote for a senile dinosaur just because he is Dem? You think we're voting for a idol contest or cheering for football team here?

    Wow! Ouch! " Poor kids are just as smart as....." Not seen or heard about that one before. Makes me wonder how many more of these type of comments we are going to hear from him between now and Nov. Thanks for sharing.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  15. #15035
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I have no responsibility for Trump. The first time I voted against Republicans was for Obama in 2008 after the pre-Tea Party voted against TARP in the House in the midst of the financial crisis. When your house is on fire - when capitalism was on fire - to talk about moral hazards and bullshit like that while people's live savings and homes were on the line made it so I couldn't vote for any Republican, and I punished John McCain for it.

    I have never voted once for a Tea Party republican, at any point. Not in 2010, 2012 or 2014. The last major Republican I voted for was Massachusetts Governor Charlie Baker, who is anti-Trump. I have not voted for a Republican at any other level since 2014.

    Furthermore I started to oppose Trump in September 2015. I was VERY early on the anti-Trump Train. I never really paid attention to him before he started to run for President. But when I caught up with the Birther shit, with his attacks on immigrants and the disabled and the press, I said "absolutely not". I was in effect, a Day 1 NeverTrumper. I was NeverTrump before NeverTrump.

    So no. I'm not responsible for any of it. As for moderates in general, moderation has build America's vast wealth, power and opened countless opportunities for its people while limiting disruption. Is it perfect? No. What is? But right or left extremism will open the door to far more disruption, which is simply not what Americans want nor is it in their interests.

    This country needs reform. Not revolution. The people who wanted revolution keep getting out voted.

    I said this in 2016. Bernie Supporters didn't listen then. They misread Hillary's 2016 loss. Maybe they'll listen now, since Joe Biden is beating him worse than Hillary did.

    America has the problems of any country in need of modernization and reform. That's it. Healthcare reform. Electoral reform. Tax reform. Institutional reform. And so forth. Revolutions are for country's with less going for them than we have. And Bernie Sanders, as it turns out, was at the head of a mere failed political campaign who recklessly used a hallowed word as a slogan, rather than a real revolution.

    In the future, let's reserve revolution for really meaningful things, like the American Revolution or the French Revolution. Not when a septuagenarian from Vermont decides to run for President.
    You ignored all of my point.

    If you want to sell a car and will be fine with getting $1500 for it, do you list it as $2000obo or $1500obo?

    If you know you list it as $2000obo then you ultimately understand why pushing the moderate candidate against Tea party and Trump level candidates is bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    its not a perfectly equal venn diagram though. there are more left leaning moderates than right, which is why the repubs went further right to gain more extreme votes while alienating the few moderate ones (for example skroe) they had left.
    I don't know how else to explain it. WADR, nothing in that counters or even really addresses what I'm saying.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  16. #15036
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Being moderate is the compromise (midway point) between right ideology and left ideology. If the dems side starts at moderate instead of left, the compromise then becomes the midway point between moderate and the right, which will be more right than left. If the right keeps going right, and the left doesn't stay politically left but rather just left of wherever the right currently is, then "moderate" becomes increasingly right leaning.
    But you're equating a complicated political landscape to essentially a slide rule with just four marks on it. Which is entirely incorrect. Each issue has different perspectives and represents different factors, left/moderate/right. No one candidate completely embodies any one section that you suggested above.

    Picking what you think is a "moderate" candidate doesn't mean the entire country shifts right. Biden can come in left/middle/right on any one issue. So your entire premise is wrong, because nothing in politics is simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You ignored all of my point.

    If you want to sell a car and will be fine with getting $1500 for it, do you list it as $2000obo or $1500obo?

    If you know you list it as $2000obo then you ultimately understand why pushing the moderate candidate against Tea party and Trump level candidates is bad.
    Because social policy for a country of 360,000,000 people is the same as selling cars, right?

  17. #15037

  18. #15038
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I don't know how else to explain it. WADR, nothing in that counters or even really addresses what I'm saying.
    i get what you're saying, but you are looking at wrong. the "midway point" has stayed the same, and by moving right the repubs have actually pushed more people to the left that were once in the right bubble.
    you think it went like
    (left)---(mid)---(right)
    to
    --------(left)---(mid)---(right)--->
    when what actually happened was
    (left)---(mid)---(right)
    to
    (left)-(mid)-------(right)-->
    thats why moderate candidates kept gravitating to the left side more, they were abandoned.

  19. #15039
    I still find it funny people are still trying to hold Biden to pre-Trump standards. Literally every gaff I see of him Trump has done something dumber and worse of the sort. As if the bar has never been lowered.

  20. #15040
    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    I still find it funny people are still trying to hold Biden to pre-Trump standards. Literally every gaff I see of him Trump has done something dumber and worse of the sort. As if the bar has never been lowered.
    Trump was a gift from God for the establishments democrats. Now they get to dangle a puppet for them to control as the "electable" candidate, and get swarms of "scared of Orange man" voters that follow CNN & MSNBC "electability" talking points. "Just ignore everything wrong Biden does, because he's the most 'electable'." "Bernie honeymooned in Russia!" "Bernie Bros!" *ignores Joe biden's problems and gaffs*
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2020-03-12 at 12:04 AM.

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