1. #15041
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    They will. Because they will age and their priorities will change. 2008's hope and change voters are today's Biden "Establishment" voters. Bernie's voters largely couldn't vote in 2008.

    The slow pressures of time and life will fracture Bernie's half baked revolution.

    Secondly, Joe Biden is triage. But the problems in this country need reform, not revolution. Bernie Sanders and his supporters presume very much when they imagine the solutions to them. They have not won the argument. Not by a long shot.

    You can start by winning elections for more than just one Bernard Sanders's held Senate seat and a few House representatives.
    Do not get me wrong I will vote for a shit sandwich if it has a D in front of it instead of Trump but Biden and the democrats are going to do Obama 2.0 redux. If as it looks like it is the US is going into a slow down or recession president Biden will do the same thing Obama did. The movements you so despise are going to grow not get better Biden will institute zero reforms that will address the reason why so many Americans are angry.

    It should disturb you that even with everything Trump has done he has a very good chance of winning. That means someone with even 10% more brains could easily turn this country any way they want that doesn't happen in a country where everything is working. Biden wants to go back to the good old days those days are gone you cannot pretend Trump didn't happen. Biden is not triage he is delaying dealing with the problem and if he acts just like Obama he will be like pouring gasoline onto a fire.

  2. #15042
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    How? Just fucking how is he worse than Trump?
    not being worse than trump is not a qualifier for getting my vote. and so far his voting history hasn't convinced of anything other than biden will do whatever and say whatever to get elected and is basically more like a right leaning moderate. not a candidate i'm interested in.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
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  3. #15043
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But you're equating a complicated political landscape to essentially a slide rule with just four marks on it. Which is entirely incorrect. Each issue has different perspectives and represents different factors, left/moderate/right. No one candidate completely embodies any one section that you suggested above.

    Picking what you think is a "moderate" candidate doesn't mean the entire country shifts right. Biden can come in left/middle/right on any one issue. So your entire premise is wrong, because nothing in politics is simple.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because social policy for a country of 360,000,000 people is the same as selling cars, right?
    Yes.

    Look at what has happened Cubby.......

    W was more right than Dole. The Tea Party was more right than W. The repubs then tried moderate, got clobbered again, then went the full 9 into batshit alt right with Trump. Each time, the left has become progressively more center to center right. So much so, the big grand super liberal piece of legislation, the ACA is the conservative created answer to single payer.

    You guys keep capitulate before you even get to the fucking table. You bring a candidate/legislation/whatever to the discussions already at what you think he compromise should be. And when people who actually have left ideals voice their concern you shout them down and tell them they are crazy and wrong, meanwhile the whole fucking country is moving more and more right. That is fact, open your eyes guys.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    i get what you're saying, but you are looking at wrong. the "midway point" has stayed the same, and by moving right the repubs have actually pushed more people to the left that were once in the right bubble.
    you think it went like
    (left)---(mid)---(right)
    to
    --------(left)---(mid)---(right)--->
    when what actually happened was
    (left)---(mid)---(right)
    to
    (left)-(mid)-------(right)-->
    thats why moderate candidates kept gravitating to the left side more, they were abandoned.
    No it hasn't. Biden is not a liberal. He is center right. Hillary was more right than Obama and Obama was more right than Bill.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  4. #15044
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    He is a status-quo dinosaur, a creep,just as corrupt but a more senile version of Trump. He can't even distinguish Tuesday from Thursday
    wtf?! are you just throwing shit at the wall and trying to see what garbage sticks?
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  5. #15045
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    just venting your spleen then?
    You haven't contributed anything of value to this conversation for some time now. Are you shooting for a record?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Not at all. You accused me of using authoritarian language. I explained it's not authoritarian language.

    <Bernie hate boner stuff>
    So "kiss the ring" is a phrase commonly used in a democracy? You keep making this about something it's not. I know you like bashing Sanders and his supporters, but they're irrelevant to the call out that was made at you (which was not originally me as a reminder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Do not get me wrong I will vote for a shit sandwich if it has a D in front of it instead of Trump but Biden and the democrats are going to do Obama 2.0 redux. If as it looks like it is the US is going into a slow down or recession president Biden will do the same thing Obama did. The movements you so despise are going to grow not get better Biden will institute zero reforms that will address the reason why so many Americans are angry.

    It should disturb you that even with everything Trump has done he has a very good chance of winning. That means someone with even 10% more brains could easily turn this country any way they want that doesn't happen in a country where everything is working. Biden wants to go back to the good old days those days are gone you cannot pretend Trump didn't happen. Biden is not triage he is delaying dealing with the problem and if he acts just like Obama he will be like pouring gasoline onto a fire.
    Too many folks disinterested in hearing this and just want us all to be happy with whatever we get.

  6. #15046
    No it hasn't. Biden is not a liberal. He is center right. Hillary was more right than Obama and Obama was more right than Bill.
    you're ignoring that both were much more to the left than their opponents, which proves my point. the right abandoned its moderates which were then folded into the left.
    i am going by american standards, cause america has never had a strong left (the actual progressive party died out shortly after it was born long ago). its not worth comparing to europe, which is a mistake i see a lot here do lately (egged on by europeans).

  7. #15047
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    i'm just going off the data- biden wouldn't be picking up demographics that went for bernie & trump if "moderate" was the issue. in fact moderate turnout increased.
    repubs drove away moderates/independents with their terrible history on race relations & obsession with ayn rand.
    bernie fans keep saying, "drive away this vital voting demographic because i don't like them!".
    well, didn't work out so well for bernie.
    you guys went off the data last time and look what happened....
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  8. #15048
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    You haven't contributed anything of value to this conversation for some time now. Are you shooting for a record?
    lol, thats a yes then.

  9. #15049
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    you're ignoring that both were much more to the left than their opponents, which proves my point. the right abandoned its moderates which were then folded into the left.
    i am going by american standards, cause america has never had a strong left (the actual progressive party died out shortly after it was born long ago). its not worth comparing to europe, which is a mistake i see a lot here do lately (egged on by europeans).
    No I'm not and no it doesn't;t.

    Being left of your opponent doesn't make you left or moderate.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  10. #15050
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    you guys went off the data last time and look what happened....
    maybe bernie would have done better if he had as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    No I'm not and no it doesn't;t.

    Being left of your opponent doesn't make you left or moderate.
    how strange, weren't you just saying its all relative?

  11. #15051
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    lol, thats a yes then.
    Wow, that's certainly a unique interpretation. Good try though.

    I'm not replying to you further because its a waste of time and you've already nearly derailed the thread once. So moving on. I look forward to your pithy last word response.

  12. #15052
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Do not get me wrong I will vote for a shit sandwich if it has a D in front of it instead of Trump but Biden and the democrats are going to do Obama 2.0 redux. If as it looks like it is the US is going into a slow down or recession president Biden will do the same thing Obama did. The movements you so despise are going to grow not get better Biden will institute zero reforms that will address the reason why so many Americans are angry.

    It should disturb you that even with everything Trump has done he has a very good chance of winning. That means someone with even 10% more brains could easily turn this country any way they want that doesn't happen in a country where everything is working. Biden wants to go back to the good old days those days are gone you cannot pretend Trump didn't happen. Biden is not triage he is delaying dealing with the problem and if he acts just like Obama he will be like pouring gasoline onto a fire.
    pretty sure skroe is conservative/neo conservative who is only here cause he wants to beat trump....he doesn't care about the democratic party at all besides beating trump.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  13. #15053
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    Wow, that's certainly a unique interpretation. Good try though.

    I'm not replying to you further because its a waste of time and you've already nearly derailed the thread once. So moving on. I look forward to your pithy last word response.
    you admit you came here to vent and criticize but can't handle being challenged on what you say?
    yikes.

  14. #15054
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    maybe bernie would have done better if he had as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    how strange, weren't you just saying its all relative?
    Jesus, no.

    I am saying (and have been saying) the mistake is saying it is all relative. Because saying moderate is the midway point between moderate and alt right , is stupid. Seriously man, I don't know how many more ways to say it to you.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  15. #15055
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Jesus, no.

    I am saying (and have been saying) the mistake is saying it is all relative. Because saying moderate is the midway point between moderate and alt right , is stupid. Seriously man, I don't know how many more ways to say it to you.
    hold on let me look at this again;
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Being moderate is the compromise (midway point) between right ideology and left ideology. If the dems side starts at moderate instead of left, the compromise then becomes the midway point between moderate and the right, which will be more right than left. If the right keeps going right, and the left doesn't stay politically left but rather just left of wherever the right currently is, then "moderate" becomes increasingly right leaning.
    if your problem is there's no actual left wing party in america, that has nothing to do with "moderates", because by that definition there aren't even moderates.

  16. #15056
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    hold on let me look at this again;

    if your problem is there's no actual left wing party in america, that has nothing to do with "moderates", because by that definition there aren't even moderates.
    I've tried to be patient and respectful with you, but if you don't understand how what you just bolded doesn't;t contradict anything I said when it is exactly what I've been saying, I cannot help you.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  17. #15057
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I've tried to be patient and respectful with you, but if you don't understand how what you just bolded doesn't;t contradict anything I said when it is exactly what I've been saying, I cannot help you.
    I'm pretty sure he's here without any actual intentions for good faith discussion.

  18. #15058
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Yes.

    Look at what has happened Cubby.......

    W was more right than Dole. The Tea Party was more right than W. The repubs then tried moderate, got clobbered again, then went the full 9 into batshit alt right with Trump. Each time, the left has become progressively more center to center right. So much so, the big grand super liberal piece of legislation, the ACA is the conservative created answer to single payer.

    You guys keep capitulate before you even get to the fucking table. You bring a candidate/legislation/whatever to the discussions already at what you think he compromise should be. And when people who actually have left ideals voice their concern you shout them down and tell them they are crazy and wrong, meanwhile the whole fucking country is moving more and more right. That is fact, open your eyes guys.
    You're making a fundamental flaw here - you're assuming that people don't know how to negotiate. Just because they are moderate, doesn't mean they don't know how to come to the table asking for more than what they expect.

    And yes, your response will be, "but their starting point of asking for more won't be the same as someone who is left-wing".

    You would be 100% incorrect - because the two issues (political stance and negotiating ability) are not mutually exclusive.

  19. #15059
    I just heard the phrase, "Can't stop the Joementum!", and I'm actually okay with that.

  20. #15060
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    You're making a fundamental flaw here - you're assuming that people don't know how to negotiate. Just because they are moderate, doesn't mean they don't know how to come to the table asking for more than what they expect.

    And yes, your response will be, "but their starting point of asking for more won't be the same as someone who is left-wing".

    You would be 100% incorrect - because the two issues (political stance and negotiating ability) are not mutually exclusive.
    Whether they do know or not, isn't the point. They aren't doing it, that is the point.

    I say to you again, every candidate the Dems have put up has been center to center right since B. Clinton and at the same time, the right has gotten more and more right, to where there's a real fear Trump won't leave office without force. During all fo this, you are saying, "Nope, stay the course, keep meeting them halfway."
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

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