Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[kaelleria]

America is terrified about COVID19 right now. One person on the stage tonight talked to the American people tonight about how we're going to get through it.

The other brought up votes for 25 years ago

[Jehct]

I told the BernieBros here this this other day

Enjoy watching Biden get shredded apart in the Primary debates. Enjoy 4 more years of Trump. The candidate you clearly wanted.

[Grapemask]

Horseshit. Because "what they did right" wasn't done for the reason Bernie is telling progressives (who don't know better because they aren't educated on the topic). Mao and Castro did not spread literacy to improve peoples lives and build an educated society.

Literacy in China and Cuba were done to speed indoctrination of communist ideology by the regime, not to expand western-style education and openness to ideas through reading. How Westerners think about literacy - the major gateway to knowledge and understanding and new ideas - is in fact an existential threat to Authoritarian regimes that demand a monopoly of ideas and a conformity in thought.

Bernie's response was not sane or logical. It was a rancid rape of of history by an old lefty who laments capitalists won the Cold War.

And with China in particular, 25 years of carrots have lead to nothing positives. It is absolutely going to come to war with them, probably within our life times. That ship has largely sailed already. If you think the United States isn't going to use the Corniavirus to roll back China's global influence as punishment for their failure to contain it at the end of last year, you're wrong. The New Cold War is here. And there is Bernie Sanders, coming down on the wrong side of it.

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This is entirely true. I think Biden crushed Bernard, but that's immaterial really. Bernard didn't have the night he needed to. And it was very, very far from what Bernard Sanders' supporters had hoped for.

But this is part of nuance. Bernie Sanders rejects the bad aspect of these things, while saying that the thing itself is good. It's horrible to use literacy to indoctrinate people. But the government having a program to make people literate is a thing we should want. Semi-related, one thing my wife and I often debate is the fact that on one hand, it's unspeakably horrific that Nazis did medical experimentation on people; on the other hand, a lot of modern medicine is built on findings by Nazi experiments that have never been repeated because of how unethical it was. Nuance is tricky.

Bernie Sanders' failure is that he ought to let it go and just say "yeah man, that shit sucks. We should teach people to read though, right?"

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Bernie did well too, but I don't think he exceeded any expectations here either. I kinda expected him to give Biden a harder time, but maybe he was just playing nice. In any case, it's always interesting to see him go off-script.

Some dude on CNN that I heard in the 8 seconds before I turned it off (Axelrod?) had a good read: Bernie Sanders didn't sound like he was talking to the voters, he sounded like he knew the math and was telling Biden what Joe Biden needed to know to get his supporters on board.

[Skroe]

Enjoy watching Biden get shredded apart in the Primary debates. Enjoy 4 more years of Trump. The candidate you clearly wanted.

I'd rather lose with Biden then try with Bernard. And that's because I think Biden has a better chance in Florida and Wisconsin than Bernie does.

It doesn't matter how many young people in California Bernie can inspire in his fake revolution. Biden has the better shot of getting out old white people, blacks and suburban women Wisconsin and Florida.

It's as simple as that. If Biden loses, we can't claim that we didn't apply the most optimal strategy we had to win crucial electoral votes at the time.

And as for the debates... debates don't move voters in the first place. Secondly, Hillary dominated Trump 3 times and still lost. Third, I don't expect Trump to actually attend any debates even though he's currently promised too. He'll want to avoid answering questions about his failure of leadership. He'll hold a rally instead.

[Spectral]

But this is part of nuance. Bernie Sanders rejects the bad aspect of these things, while saying that the thing itself is good. It's horrible to use literacy to indoctrinate people. But the government having a program to make people literate is a thing we should want. Semi-related, one thing my wife and I often debate is the fact that on one hand, it's unspeakably horrific that Nazis did medical experimentation on people; on the other hand, a lot of modern medicine is built on findings by Nazi experiments that have never been repeated because of how unethical it was. Nuance is tricky.

Bernie Sanders' failure is that he ought to let it go and just say "yeah man, that shit sucks. We should teach people to read though, right?"

If Nazis came up, it'd be real fucking awkward if someone on stage said, "look, the Autobahn was good and the rockets were impressive and I appreciate the way they put Germans first, but I reject their authoritarianism".

[Skroe]

But this is part of nuance. Bernie Sanders rejects the bad aspect of these things, while saying that the thing itself is good. It's horrible to use literacy to indoctrinate people. But the government having a program to make people literate is a thing we should want. Semi-related, one thing my wife and I often debate is the fact that on one hand, it's unspeakably horrific that Nazis did medical experimentation on people; on the other hand, a lot of modern medicine is built on findings by Nazi experiments that have never been repeated because of how unethical it was. Nuance is tricky.

Bernie Sanders' failure is that he ought to let it go and just say "yeah man, that shit sucks. We should teach people to read though, right?"

I mean you're correct it's a fine line. We should want everyone to be literate, but as you and I said, like anything else, the cynical abuse of that makes it not a good thing. Is keeping them illiterate the answer? Probably not. But that doesn't mean Bernard should go out and suddenly make up a story about how it was an intrinsically good thing. Because that story he's turned into something his supporters have kept repeating in order to defend Bernie's mistakes. It won't take much for this to become a de facto sympathetic thing that lefties say about communist regimes.

It's like Healthcare in Cuba, which is an oldie but a goodie. Cuba has terrific healthcare... that the state controls access to. It has denied healthcare to political dissidents. It has made people afraid of speaking out for risk of losing healthcare they or a loved on needs. Before the abusive use of healthcare as a tool of intimidation became more widely known in the 2000s, during the 1990s it was something parts of the left used to draw contrast between Communist Cuba and capitalist America's lack of universal healthcare.

Bernie shouldn't go near these topics because his ostensible goal SHOULD BE to get more votes than the other guy, and not educate people (or at least, educate as how he sees facts, which are wrong). But he does it because he is a man of deep character flaws. He can't do what you said and just say "yeah man, that shit sucks. We should teach people to read though, right?". It's objectively the right thing to do. He shouldn't be talking about Cuba and China. He should be talking about America. He can't gain any votes by going to bat for Communists there, but he can lose them.

That's why he'd be a poor candidate in the general election and the primary is fulfilling its role by filtering him out.

[cubby]

I've got Skroe on ignore now, but since I can see his post through you quote, I'd just like to remind the audience that the reason old people misspeak more often is because of senility. That's literally the reason.

Right, because it couldn't be that Biden suffers from a lifelong stutter, and that's where the misspeaks originate.

God forbid you ever post from knowledge, rather than feels.

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Its fairly obvious from his misspeaking he's got the brain worms. That's really the only conclusion you can draw. Misspeaking a word is a clear indication of severe cognitive impairment. I know because I pretend to be a psychological brain doctor.

ROFL - it's amazing what people conclude when they let their feels overcome their intelligence.

[Skroe]

Right, because it couldn't be that Biden suffers from a lifelong stutter, and that's where the misspeaks originate.

God forbid you ever post from knowledge, rather than feels.

People love when I make Trumphadi's eat dirt. People love when I willingly eat dirt. People never love when I make them eat dirt.

The only people I have on ignore / invisible (see signature) are posters with less than <20 posts, the local Russian trolls, and a handful of forum performance artists like Theo. I have zero Trumphadis and zero progressives on ignore. There is no point coming to a forum for agreement. Debate is the order of the day, and its a full contact sport.

[Spectral]

There is no point coming to a forum for agreement. Debate is the order of the day, and its a full contact sport.

People should sticky this on their damned monitors. If everyone you're talking to agrees with you, you're decreasing your cognitive ability, feeding a bunch of bad impulses, and learning nothing much useful.

[Themius]

America is terrified about COVID19 right now. One person on the stage tonight talked to the American people tonight about how we're going to get through it.

The other brought up votes for 25 years ago

Records matter.

Let’s also note one sees this as a crisis and wants to saves lives but says single payer isn’t the answer meanwhile tens of thousands die due to not going to doctors

[Edward Wu]

Biden looked pretty good, and Sanders looked weaker than people expected.

Progressives need to smell the roses and support Biden already. He's already shifting significantly more to the left as he's just announced his own version of Bernie's free education plan:
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/sta...939666946?s=20

Stop the cult of personality. Stop the sour grapes. Support Biden and end Trump's presidency as a unified left.
But eh who am I kidding, hardcore progressive literally cannot stop malding.

[Themius]

I'd rather lose with Biden then try with Bernard. And that's because I think Biden has a better chance in Florida and Wisconsin than Bernie does.

It doesn't matter how many young people in California Bernie can inspire in his fake revolution. Biden has the better shot of getting out old white people, blacks and suburban women Wisconsin and Florida.

It's as simple as that. If Biden loses, we can't claim that we didn't apply the most optimal strategy we had to win crucial electoral votes at the time.

And as for the debates... debates don't move voters in the first place. Secondly, Hillary dominated Trump 3 times and still lost. Third, I don't expect Trump to actually attend any debates even though he's currently promised too. He'll want to avoid answering questions about his failure of leadership. He'll hold a rally instead.

Interesting how the politician who supported gay marches in the 80s and fought for civil rights for blacks and was arrested is “fake revolutionary”

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Biden looked pretty good, and Sanders looked weaker than people expected.

Progressives need to smell the roses and support Biden already. He's already shifting significantly more to the left as he's just announced his own version of Bernie's free education plan:
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/sta...939666946?s=20

Stop the cult of personality. Stop the sour grapes. Support Biden and end Trump's presidency as a unified left.
But eh who am I kidding, hardcore progressive literally cannot stop malding.

Not with people like you. The vitriol that exists if you support Bernie is pretty ridiculous from Biden supporters. And vice verser

[Grapemask]

Biden looked pretty good, and Sanders looked weaker than people expected.

Progressives need to smell the roses and support Biden already. He's already shifting significantly more to the left as he's just announced his own version of Bernie's free education plan:
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/sta...939666946?s=20

Stop the cult of personality. Stop the sour grapes. Support Biden and end Trump's presidency as a unified left.
But eh who am I kidding, hardcore progressive literally cannot stop malding.

I saw that earlier today and it's part of what's helped me begrudgingly accept Biden a little bit more, along with his showing tonight as a guy who actually exists outside of his best black friend Obama. If he adds a few more things I'll be more enthusiastic.

[Edward Wu]

Not with people like you. The vitriol that exists if you support Bernie is pretty ridiculous from Biden supporters. And vice verser

Lol, what a comment. It's not a friendship. You support the policies that will make the country a better place to live and end the awful presidency right now.

Saying you won't vote for Biden because people are being mean to you is next level immaturity. Cringed hard.

[Sunseeker]

Right, because it couldn't be that Biden suffers from a lifelong stutter, and that's where the misspeaks originate.

God forbid you ever post from knowledge, rather than feels.

God forbid you actually read the posts you're responding to. I mean jesus that's just way too much to expect from anyone in a text-based communication format! Silly me!

Skroe's defense of Biden's misspeaking was that old people misspeak more. I posted from facts that the reason for old people misspeaking more is senility. There's no particular Biden attack here. Bernie and Trump are also old, and therefore also more likely to misspeak more due to senility. After a certain age, your brain doesn't work so well. This sets in faster for some and slower for others.

If Skroe's defense of Biden's misspeaking was due to Biden having a speech impediment, I would have said nothing, because I know that to be true (not that you'd believe I knew that before you said it, but your belief is unnecessary). I don't necessarily agree that's the case, but it's certainly a valid defense.

But you can't defend Biden against "he's going senile" arguments with "old people misspeak more!" because yeah, they do, because of senility.

Try reading what people write more and less REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEding.

[Skroe]

Interesting how the politician who supported gay marches in the 80s and fought for civil rights for blacks and was arrested is “fake revolutionary”

Bernard Sanders ran two campaigns with the slogan "a political revolution". For two campaigns I called it fraudulent, dangerous and dishonest. Americans want reform, not revolution. America does not need a revolution. Revolution is a sacred word and Sanders was using it cynically and destructively.

There never was any revolution. There was an also-ran progressive Presidential campaign with a slogan that couldn't get out the votes in 2016 and CERTAINLY couldn't get out the votes in 2020. Does one have a revolution if you lose election after election after election? No. You have nothing.

To drive the point home, Biden's campaign is messaging this:

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1239348555736907776


Precisely. Bernard and his supporters badly misread the American mood. Real Revolutions are bottom up. Fake ones like Sanders 2016 and 2020 are top down. It's a campaign trying to astroturf people power, astroturf a popular uprising, astroturf popular mobilization, when nothing of the sort happened. As the most canny observers of Super Tuesday pointed out, the multigenerational, multiethnic, multi-regional, economically diverse coalition did turn out... just for Joe Biden, and not Bernard Sanders.

Americans are an extraordinarily risk adverse people for a lot of reasons and the way to win is not to go against that, but to build it into the strategy. Sanders' fake revolution failed because it asked Americans to take risks into the unknown they are unwilling to make.

I've denounced the revolution talk since 2016 and I'm happy it failed and I'm happy Biden 2020 is burying it for good. We will not defeat Trump with revolution talk that would drive voters in swing states into the hands of the devil-they-know. We'll defeat Trump by making it a referendum of his character and asking the voters "do you really want 4 more years of the Donald Trump show? Or mostly harmless Uncle Joe?"

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God forbid you actually read the posts you're responding to. I mean jesus that's just way too much to expect from anyone in a text-based communication format! Silly me!

Skroe's defense of Biden's misspeaking was that old people misspeak more. I posted from facts that the reason for old people misspeaking more is senility. There's no particular Biden attack here. Bernie and Trump are also old, and therefore also more likely to misspeak more due to senility. After a certain age, your brain doesn't work so well. This sets in faster for some and slower for others.

If Skroe's defense of Biden's misspeaking was due to Biden having a speech impediment, I would have said nothing, because I know that to be true (not that you'd believe I knew that before you said it, but your belief is unnecessary). I don't necessarily agree that's the case, but it's certainly a valid defense.

But you can't defend Biden against "he's going senile" arguments with "old people misspeak more!" because yeah, they do, because of senility.

Try reading what people write more and less REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEding.

I didn't defend Biden's mispeaking. I said it was irrelevant. I consider sentience a non-requirement for the 2020 Democratic Domination. If I thought a popular Golden Retriever would get more votes in the six states that matter than a human being, I'd demand Democrats nominate the Golden Retriever. My support for Biden is not ideological. It's purely because of electoral math.

It doesn't matter if Biden is a drooling idiot who wears depends. I support him simply because I think he makes the campaign a referendum on Trump and can carry Florida + 1 of the six states that matter, or 3 of the 5 minus Florida of the six states. I do not think Bernie could do that, or do it as well. It's as simple as that. If it were different, and Bernard Sanders had the better chance, I would support Bernard and take amusement when #BetrayedByBernie came up after he signed four $800 billion defense bills by 2024. I only care about winning Wisconsin or Florida. That's it.

And my comment about Bernard and dementia was largely to make light of the sheer stupidity of the senility comments.

If Biden were actually senile, it wouldn't change my support for him one bit. As I said, I'd vote for a Golden Retriever if I thought it could win. Or an Avocado with a D carved into it.

[Milchshake]

Bernie confusing this outbreak with Ebola *three times*, not a presidential look.

Im guessing this week, his campaign will claim everyone else is a republican shill dementia.

[Themius]

Lol, what a comment. It's not a friendship. You support the policies that will make the country a better place to live and end the awful presidency right now.

Saying you won't vote for Biden because people are being mean to you is next level immaturity. Cringed hard.

Did you read what the fuck I even said????

[NM 156]

Would you refuse to take a medication developed by communists? If not, then how can you argue that nothing good can happen in authoritarian regimes?

Biden starting mocking Sanders by saying "that's like saying if jack the ripper."

Well I bet if a mass murderer had developed a medication that would have saved his son, he would have gladly accepted it. And he would probably say something to the effect of "I reject the murdering but the medicine saved my son."

[Skroe]

By the way, I guess I missed it, but Biden pledged to pick a woman for VP?

Better be Stacy Abrams. Better not be Kamala Harris.