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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    Let's break down how willfully wrong your statement is.

    "we're aware y'all had a point to make after..." - We always have a point to make, and you all were our political adversaries long before Obama. Many people voted for Trump as a message to both sides of D.C., but mostly to the brooding socialist takeover of the American left. Apparently the Democrat Party has yet to receive the full message, as here we are continuing to gloat about things like decriminalizing illegal immigration that would have been inconceivable in American politics only a few years ago. The Democrats are following the wrong playbook, even worse than they did last time, and you'll be left wondering again where it all went wrong and shouting at the sky.
    The demographic breakdown of 2016 doesn't bear this out, but thanks for playing.

    "After eight years of a black man..." - The only people that ever talked about Obama's half-ethnicity were racists like you that thought it was a robust defense against any and all valid criticism. It's incredibly racially patronizing to assume that everything people held against Obama was because of his skin color, but you're too bought into your narrative to realize that logic. In fact I thought of Obama's ethnicity and rise above systemic racism as something the nation could be proud of, despite his politics.
    Considering the first major criticism people on the right were levying against him was his birth certificate - yeah, it's safe to say a large portion of the country did hold it against him.

    "governing successfully" - If you mean, directly causing a lot of the situations that Democrats are currently being huge hypocrites to Trump about right now, but I don't think that's what you mean.
    No. I mean that despite your big boy talk here, you weren't able to make Obama a one term President. That is what I mean by successful.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The demographic breakdown of 2016 doesn't bear this out, but thanks for playing.



    Considering the first major criticism people on the right were levying against him was his birth certificate - yeah, it's safe to say a large portion of the country did hold it against him.



    No. I mean that despite your big boy talk here, you weren't able to make Obama a one term President. That is what I mean by successful.
    Good lord, as much as I get accused of only caring about winning here, someone like you saying Obama was "successful" because he got re-elected is pretty fucking rich.

  3. #183
    No, Obama was pretty successful outside of a few pitfalls. Like Guantanamo, and trying to find a middle ground with Republicans. The latter stained his presidency.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    Good lord, as much as I get accused of only caring about winning here, someone like you saying Obama was "successful" because he got re-elected is pretty fucking rich.
    I could go on about the positive things the Obama administration did, but suffice it to say that Obama's tenure was of relatively average performance. Which is the remarkable thing - a black man successfully holding the office of President for eight years, and have it be considered a period of normalcy.

    But I mean, that wouldn't change the fact you lot have no good answer for why Obama was reelected despite being such a manifestly bad President.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    Good lord, as much as I get accused of only caring about winning here, someone like you saying Obama was "successful" because he got re-elected is pretty fucking rich.
    What's rich is you trying to pretend Obama was a complete failure. Stop being salty you don't get your citizenship question.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    100:1 odds that he wont
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Okay. I'll stop sharing my views.

  6. #186
    Herald of the Titans Pterodactylus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    Good lord, as much as I get accused of only caring about winning here, someone like you saying Obama was "successful" because he got re-elected is pretty fucking rich.
    What's your metrics for success and failure?
    “You know, it really doesn’t matter what the media write as long as you’ve got a young, and beautiful, piece of ass." - President Donald Trump

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    No, Obama was pretty successful outside of a few pitfalls. Like Guantanamo, and trying to find a middle ground with Republicans. The latter stained his presidency.
    "As a leftist, I can say Obama was sufficiently successful (leftist) until he wasn't so successful (leftist) that one time"

    That's what you sound like.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    "As a leftist, I can say Obama was sufficiently successful (leftist) until he wasn't so successful (leftist) that one time"

    That's what you sound like.
    Man you are a salty fuckboi. Even when people say Obama failed in some area's you have a pouting session that people liked him.

    "SLrrrrp-guck-guck-guck-hrrrrrrk. HRRRRRRK. Gluck! Unnghh... please Mr. Moore, I did such a good job defending you, pleeeease give me more, I know I'm not as young as you waaaaant"

    is how you sound like.


    Infracted.
    Last edited by Flarelaine; 2019-07-12 at 08:50 AM. Reason: Flaming
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  9. #189
    The Insane Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    Good lord, as much as I get accused of only caring about winning here, someone like you saying Obama was "successful" because he got re-elected is pretty fucking rich.
    Turning around the American economy after Bush sank it into shambles is a pretty big "success." Along with... you know, killing Bin Laden, saving the American Auto industry with loans it has been paid back in full, etc, etc.

    Obama's economic turnaround has been so strong that Trump has yet to fuck it up, despite his best efforts. Now that's some presidential action with staying power. Like, not only did he fully refurnish a trashed kitchen, he ALSO toddler-proofed it.

    Good god do I miss that man.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  10. #190
    Regardless of how stupid I find the logic behind the question being illegal, its a pretty terrible way to count illegal immigrants. Surverys are awful

  11. #191
    What is the point of taking a census if you are expanding it beyond your citizenship?

    You may as well just pull numbers out of your ass.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    What is the point of taking a census if you are expanding it beyond your citizenship?

    You may as well just pull numbers out of your ass.
    The census is supposed to count the population, not the number of citizens.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    100:1 odds that he wont
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Okay. I'll stop sharing my views.

  13. #193
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    What is the point of taking a census if you are expanding it beyond your citizenship?

    You may as well just pull numbers out of your ass.
    The census has literally always been about enumerating the entire population, not just citizens.

  14. #194
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seiklis View Post
    So Jackson personally enforced the Trail of Tears then? (which the quote is referring to for everyone else in the thread's sake) Damn he's even worse than I thought
    Err I think you misunderstood. Jackson, that quote and the Trail of Tears is pretty much the one time that happened. Other Presidents have tried to defy the courts and Congress, and it almost never works, because the executors of the President's illegal order would risk contempt of court and imprisonment. Jackson got away with it because our young country, then barely 30 years old, lacked institutions. Our current country is up to its neck in them.

    Obama supporters hauled out the Jackson quote, and it went nowhere (on healthcare). Bush supporters hauled out the quote,and it went nowhere (on rights for GITMO detainees). Clinton supporters hauled out the quote, and it went nowhere (on end of Cold War budget cuts / the line item veto... it was complicated). And now Trump's lackeys are having a go at it, and lo and behold, it too, will go nowhere.

    If Jackson tried his trail of tears today, he'd have to do it himself, because no one would follow his orders. Because in modern America, the courts decide what the law is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    What is the point of taking a census if you are expanding it beyond your citizenship?

    You may as well just pull numbers out of your ass.
    The census is not a headcount of citizens. It's a headcount of everyone who lies within the country. This is why the infamous 3/5th compromise (clause) exists (even though it's dormant, superseded by the 13th and 14th Amendment). Because under it the census counted 3 out of every 5 slaves, who keep in mind, had no vote and no human rights. So why count slaves at all? Because absent the 3/5th compromise, if only free men were counted, the total population of the pre-Civil War south would have been undercounted and thus under represented in congress. But giving slaves a full count would have been an assault on slavery as an institution. Hence they split the difference.

    This is relevant as to be illustrate the purpose of the census and Congressional representation. There is a misunderstanding that Congressional representation, which comes from the census, is supposed to speak for citizens. It's not. Your House Representative is, technically speaking, a delegate representing a tract of land and all who reside within. In fact, the State House of Representatives are sometimes refered to as a "House of Delegates". Voters choose who represents, but the division of the territory is based around how many people live in it.

    If you think the House of Representatives should represent citizens not population within a territory, you're actually asking for an entirely different make up to the body. Gone would be "Massachusetts 3rd district" or "Virginia 4th district", and you'd have state-wide party lists, with the congressional delegation from that State sent to the House based on the percentage of the vote that party got. Some countries do something like this.

    But as it stands right now, the House of Representative's function and what the purpose of the census is, is quite clear and not up for debate.


    More broadly, historically and in other countries that only enumerate "citizens", or whatever the term is, the invariable outcome is the creation of a large, and growing underclass that is discriminated against. If you want to go really deep into history, you're basically describing the Roman Patrician and Plebian system.
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  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    What is the point of taking a census if you are expanding it beyond your citizenship?

    You may as well just pull numbers out of your ass.
    The constitution doesn't establish it to count citizenship. It establishes it to count population.

    The two are not the same thing.

  16. #196
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    "As a leftist, I can say Obama was sufficiently successful (leftist) until he wasn't so successful (leftist) that one time"

    That's what you sound like.
    You're so far off base here that the concession stand wants you to order or get out of the way; Obama was a very successful President - the most successful since Reagan, when it comes to actually doing the job of President, which is something far different than most people imagine it to be.

    A mistake people make is in thinking that Obama ever intended to be a "liberal" or "progressive" executive - as a politician, Obama was a centrist technocrat (as was Hillary Clinton); Obama did for, or to, the American left what Trump is doing to the American right (only far, far more smoothly and with less negative knock-on effects down the road) - selling them a bill of goods, with a few token social issues thrown in. He passed a Cato Institute health care plan. He let the architects in billion dollar frauds off walk free with the money, and gave the a complete pass to torturers and domestic spies. He was instrumental in not one but three destructive, horrific wars that are still going on.

    As someone who is fairly far left in terms of the ideals I would like to see humanity move toward, I am absolutely appalled by Obama; but as a practical realist who lives in the world as it is Obama was, quite good, if not brilliant, at his job. His actual job was to act as helmsman for the giant, complex set of engines that are America's dominant power structures and simultaneously as figurehead and commercial captain of the even larger and more complex ship of state in troubled waters. And mostly he did it quite well by those measures: the economy, especially the FIRE sector didn't collapse, the public didn't revolt (something that now, with Trump alienating the populist left from the populist right is almost unimaginable) and the American empire kept right on rolling. (And just for comparison, Trump's Presidency, is pretty much the opposite across the board, and Americans will pay a steep, steep for it.)
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  17. #197
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    You're so far off base here that the concession stand wants you to order or get out of the way; Obama was a very successful President - the most successful since Reagan, when it comes to actually doing the job of President, which is something far different than most people imagine it to be.

    A mistake people make is in thinking that Obama ever intended to be a "liberal" or "progressive" executive - as a politician, Obama was a centrist technocrat (as was Hillary Clinton); Obama did for, or to, the American left what Trump is doing to the American right (only far, far more smoothly and with less negative knock-on effects down the road) - selling them a bill of goods, with a few token social issues thrown in. He passed a Cato Institute health care plan. He let the architects in billion dollar frauds off walk free with the money, and gave the a complete pass to torturers and domestic spies. He was instrumental in not one but three destructive, horrific wars that are still going on.

    As someone who is fairly far left in terms of the ideals I would like to see humanity move toward, I am absolutely appalled by Obama; but as a practical realist who lives in the world as it is Obama was, quite good, if not brilliant, at his job. His actual job was to act as helmsman for the giant, complex set of engines that are America's dominant power structures and simultaneously as figurehead and commercial captain of the even larger and more complex ship of state in troubled waters. And mostly he did it quite well by those measures: the economy, especially the FIRE sector didn't collapse, the public didn't revolt (something that now, with Trump alienating the populist left from the populist right is almost unimaginable) and the American empire kept right on rolling. (And just for comparison, Trump's Presidency, is pretty much the opposite across the board, and Americans will pay a steep, steep for it.)
    I like to think of it as we're living a Wikipedia article on some dead Byzantine, Roman or Sasanian ruler or something in real time: how can one guy at the wrong time lead to a complete reversal of what hundreds of years of their predecessor built? How does city that stood for 500 years get turned into a ruin inside of a decade.

    Well this is how. Every power, every country ever has had some structural flaws. America's has been adding up for years. But it really does take one miserable man at the way wrong time to blow everything up.
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  18. #198
    What's the point of being US citizen then? To get drafted, die in some sandy shithole and pay taxes?

    Man, US is weird.
    Last edited by Voidwielder; 2019-07-12 at 09:31 AM.

  19. #199
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwielder View Post
    What's the point of being US citizen then? To get drafted, die in some sandy shithole and pay taxes?

    Man, US is weird.
    I mean you're looking at it kind of backwards.

    American citizenship should be easy to get. We're not a mono-cultural nation. There is no American ethnic identity. As the saying rightly and famously goes, we're the only country in the world founded on a set of ideals. Ideology is not culture. Our ideology is, in modern parlance, liberal democracy. Anyone who wants to be an American, should be an American so long as they believe in our fundamental ideals. There is no cultural test, or ethnic test or regional-origin test.

    This should be a non-issue, because migrants coming to our border should be made citizens so long as they follow the law, pay taxes and swear loyalty to the Constitution and our shared American ideals as enshrined within our founding documents.

    It should really be that easy. 10 million illegal immigrants? Legitimize all of them, give them a light fine. We need the work force and the taxpayers.

    Making citizenship exclusionary is in keeping with America's worst practices (i.e. the 3/5ths clause) and contrary to American ideals and interests, which are both highly inclusive. Why is it done then? I mean, to be blunt, plenty of Americans over the past 230 years have seen the ethnic and cultural tribalism of Europe, the same thing we're supposed to be better than, and found it a good thing. When these knuckle draggers who can't name five works of Leonardo Da Vinci go on about "Western Civilization", that's all that horseshit it. It's trying to import something terrible... that becoming a citizen of a country that defines itself as inclusive, should instead be exclusive.


    Anyone can be an American. Anyone. I can never truly be South Korean or German. I have no Korean blood in me, nor am I of German stock. But if I came from Mars, I could be an American, and that is true of anybody on Earth. We should facilitate that, because it only makes is better, richer and stronger in the long term.
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  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I mean you're looking at it kind of backwards.

    American citizenship should be easy to get. We're not a mono-cultural nation. There is no American ethnic identity. As the saying rightly and famously goes, we're the only country in the world founded on a set of ideals. Ideology is not culture. Our ideology is, in modern parlance, liberal democracy. Anyone who wants to be an American, should be an American so long as they believe in our fundamental ideals. There is no cultural test, or ethnic test or regional-origin test.

    This should be a non-issue, because migrants coming to our border should be made citizens so long as they follow the law, pay taxes and swear loyalty to the Constitution and our shared American ideals as enshrined within our founding documents.

    It should really be that easy. 10 million illegal immigrants? Legitimize all of them, give them a light fine. We need the work force and the taxpayers.

    Making citizenship exclusionary is in keeping with America's worst practices (i.e. the 3/5ths clause) and contrary to American ideals and interests, which are both highly inclusive. Why is it done then? I mean, to be blunt, plenty of Americans over the past 230 years have seen the ethnic and cultural tribalism of Europe, the same thing we're supposed to be better than, and found it a good thing. When these knuckle draggers who can't name five works of Leonardo Da Vinci go on about "Western Civilization", that's all that horseshit it. It's trying to import something terrible... that becoming a citizen of a country that defines itself as inclusive, should instead be exclusive.


    Anyone can be an American. Anyone. I can never truly be South Korean or German. I have no Korean blood in me, nor am I of German stock. But if I came from Mars, I could be an American, and that is true of anybody on Earth. We should facilitate that, because it only makes is better, richer and stronger in the long term.
    solid post, sir

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