What is the point of rushing pathfinder 2?

[SirCowdog]

I'm not entitled, you are entitled, nuh uh, you are, no you.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...39411524182016

That was a post from GC that's out of date, out of touch, and doesn't even consider that there are plenty of ways to make the world dangerous, even while flying. It's an oversimplification that's been drowned years ago, at the beginning of the Flying/No-Flying debate of WoD, by literally thousands of reasonable suggestions and solutions.

[rrayy]

This is a bit of an oversimplification. While it's true that Blizzard can design or change the game however they like, they don't operate in a complete vacuum. Pressure from shareholders or players can influence their decisions. An example is the RealID fiasco. Or if you're being generous, the 180 degree switch in WoD from "no flying ever again" to the pathfinder system.



Two things here: Blizzard has a history of taking ideas from other games and improving on them. When you get down to it, the core mechanics of flying haven't actually changed since TBC, which is over a decade ago. That in and of itself is a major part of the problem: the failure to update or improve the system. Not that Blizzard MUST do anything, but it behooves them to stay abreast of other games in the genre. We see FFXIV starting to rival WoW, boasting record subscriptions and player activity while WoW continues to steadily decline. If Blizzard does NOTHING to keep up, they'll eventually lose their place as the leader in the MMO genre.

And the way FFXIV handles flying(both in terms of unlocking it and it's core mechanics) makes WoW look like a child's crayon scribbling.

Second, the idea of having only two options of "sub and implicitly approve of everything Blizzard does" or "gtfo and unsub" is overly simplistic. As I pointed out above, there are ways to influence the game. And while "speak with your wallet" is probably the most powerful tool a player has, it's also a pretty shitty thing to have to resort to in order to voice your displeasure with part of the game when you might otherwise enjoy the product as a whole.

Shareholders do njot give a damn about game development. AS long as the game makes money, they are happy. They don't care how you do it.

AN no, they are not going to lose their place as the leader in the MMO genre. Evey single game that has come out has failed to usurp them. Also, just because they have taken from other games in the past does not me they have to now. WoW is a 15 year old game. FFXIV is like 1/4th their age. Game age will cause WOW to eventually die. Nothing else.

[Jotaux]

So you can fly.

[Cyranis]

That was a post from GC that's out of date, out of touch, and doesn't even consider that there are plenty of ways to make the world dangerous, even while flying. It's an oversimplification that's been drowned years ago, at the beginning of the Flying/No-Flying debate of WoD, by literally thousands of reasonable suggestions and solutions.

And yet, they chosen the pathfinder system to limit the impact of flying while the content matters. It seems pretty clear that flying was a mistake, and they have chosen to mitigate it and placate those that can't live without it.

You can continue to rally forth and suggest till you are blue in the face. It wont matter one lick. They would remove flying if they could, but it's too late for that. They neutered it's effects as best they could. Crying for them to remove pathfinder entirely is just silly.

Put it this way.

It's logical to follow that there was flying all the time
They removed flying part of the time.
Thus, their intention was to limit the effect flying had.

Time passes

They aren't going to remove the limiting system they enacted, because they are happy with it.
If anything moved or changed, it would far more likely shift even farther, by removing flying entirely, again. But we've been there.
If they thought they could have, they probably would have.

[roahn the warlock]

Because it's a time sink that many (I'd wager almost all) players will engage in because people fundamentally like the ability to fly in WoW.


Flying should be a nominal gold sink you can buy when you reach max level; that's it. That's the way it was back in WotLK and BC which of course are widely regarded as the "best" WoW expansions.

If it was like it was in TBC flying would be 60% speed for 90% of players, and idk, like, 500kg for epic flying.

[SirCowdog]

Shareholders do njot give a damn about game development. AS long as the game makes money, they are happy. They don't care how you do it.

Which would lead Blizzard to favor making design decisions that improve profitability rather than player enjoyment. While the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, taken to one extreme you get mobile phone predatory design full of loot boxes and psychological manipulation that tried to encourage children to gamble. While flying isn't anywhere near that level, I was simply pointing out that Blizzard doesn't operate in a complete vacuum. There ARE other factors than simply what Blizzard devs feel like doing.

AN no, they are not going to lose their place as the leader in the MMO genre. Evey single game that has come out has failed to usurp them. Also, just because they have taken from other games in the past does not me they have to now. WoW is a 15 year old game. FFXIV is like 1/4th their age. Game age will cause WOW to eventually die. Nothing else.

Again, this is a blatant oversimplification. If Blizzard simply keeps going down the road of stagnation, and refusing to update their game and keep abreast of market trends, they WILL die off faster and lose their place as the leader in the MMO genre. You're correct that WoW being a 15 year old game is a factor. It's just not the ONLY factor.

[Phantombeard]

I just wish the game world was built around flying. The way WOW's world is so open and free the developers could really do some amazing stuff focusing on flying. Flying should be unlocked at the start if the game world was built around it but, as it is its a little speed boost if you got it and doesn't really hurt if you don't. just imo.

[SirCowdog]

And yet, they chosen the pathfinder system to limit the impact of flying while the content matters. It seems pretty clear that flying was a mistake, and they have chosen to mitigate it and placate those that can't live without it.

They chose pathfinder because they wanted to stretch content and make it last longer, but couldn't get away with completely removing flight. This is why there's a completely unnecessary 8 month delay between part 1 and part 2 that makes no sense in term of player enjoyment or gameplay.

Flying is not intrinsically damaging to the content design. All we have to do is look at TBC and WotLK where player participation and subscriptions were at their highest. Blizzard is simply doggedly trying to force a ground-only design, and delay access to flight as long as possible because, for whatever reason, they refuse to address the issue of flying in a more comprehensive manner.

I have serious doubts about any claim of flying being a "mistake" or "harmful" to the game. If you want to make such a claim, you're going to need to back it up with evidence that overshadows two of the most popular expansions WoW has ever had. Good luck.

Thus, their intention was to limit the effect flying had.

You're making the logical leap of conflating that because flight was removed or restricted some of the time, that it's bad all of the time. This is wrong.

I have no issue at all with flight being restricted when the context of it makes sense. Inside buildings, underground, in zones where enemies or environmental effects make flying impractical. But the idea that flying is ALWAYS bad, or that flying can never be used to make the experience better, is a logical fallacy.

Limiting flight when in makes sense is acceptable. That has always been true. The complaint most people have with the pathfinder system is that flight is being restricted beyond any reasonable sense. That's what you need to understand about this debate.

[Kaleredar]

If it was like it was in TBC flying would be 60% speed for 90% of players, and idk, like, 500kg for epic flying.

But guess what


They'd still have flying.

I just wish the game world was built around flying. The way WOW's world is so open and free the developers could really do some amazing stuff focusing on flying. Flying should be unlocked at the start if the game world was built around it but, as it is its a little speed boost if you got it and doesn't really hurt if you don't. just imo.

It used to be designed around flying. Which gave us great zones like Storm Peaks and Icecrown.

As I've said before, people didn't really get the "no flying" bug up their ass until the end-ish of MoP, and, frankly, I've noticed the diminished scope of zone design since then.

[Cyranis]

They chose pathfinder because they wanted to stretch content and make it last longer, but couldn't get away with completely removing flight. This is why there's a completely unnecessary 8 month delay between part 1 and part 2 that makes no sense in term of player enjoyment or gameplay.

Opinion, you have no definitive proof of your claim.

[B][SIZE=5]Flying is not intrinsically damaging to the content design

Again, you offer no definitive proof. The weak mishmash of crap you call proof that follows under this bit is useless and isn't worth reading. You've picked some data which you believe will support your view, and yet, you have shown no source, or how it correlates. You might as well just have pulled doughnuts out yer butt for how useful that crap is.

I have serious doubts about any claim of flying being a "mistake" or "harmful" to the game. If you want to make such a claim, you're going to need to back it up with evidence that overshadows two of the most popular expansions WoW has ever had. Good luck.

Likewise. You are going to have to stop making up bs and calling it proof when isn't supportive of your latest tirade.

You're making the logical leap of conflating that because flight was removed or restricted some of the time, that it's bad all of the time. This is wrong.

Proof?
Of course you'll just hack together some bizarre sub numbers .. then shout SEE I TOL U .. like always.

But the idea that flying is ALWAYS bad, or that flying can never be used to make the experience better, is a logical fallacy.

Always bad, na. But does it add more than it takes away? Is it right for wow? Might be ok for some, but as it whole, is it right for wow. Totally different answers.

Limiting flight when in makes sense is acceptable. That has always been true. The complaint most people have with the pathfinder system is that flight is being restricted beyond any reasonable sense.

Most people huh. Did you do a large scale poll or something? Oh right, you're pulling phantom numbers out of that doughnut hole again.

[Kelathos]

Rushing? The expansion is almost over.

This summer is only halfway through the two year cycle. With the current and next raid tier remaining to be finished.

"Almost over" is baloney.

[liberaet]

Am i in the wrong here? what am i missing if i logically play this game and get what i find interesting in this game anyway without being burned out?

No, you're not in the wrong, I also feel the same, just didnt care enough about those peeps to make a post.

A lot of people play on an autopilot a get stuff just for the sake of it or because they dont have anything better to do. Like your friend that you described in your post.

[SirCowdog]

Opinion, you have no definitive proof of your claim.

Right...which is more likely. That Blizzard just wants players to the enjoy the artistic value of their terrain design.....or that the same company that cynically fires 800 people in order to make quarterly profit numbers look better, then hires back the same positions to lesser-paid employees....would choose to try and maximize content lifespan by slowing players down as much as possible, and cynically calculate the best way to force players to spend the longest time possible to achieve goals in a subscription-based model where time literally equals money to them.

Hmm...... I wonder!?

I don't know why people keep trying to give corporations the benefit of the doubt. They aren't a small indy team struggling to make players happy because they just want to create art. FFS.

Again, you offer no definitive proof.

Looks at TBC through MoP where flying didn't harm the game.

Looks at you.

Right....no proof. My bad.

Likewise. You are going to have to stop making up bs and calling it proof when isn't supportive of your latest tirade.

I'm offering reasonable explanations. You're the one claiming that flight is harmful with nothing more to go on than some Blizzard dev said that Flying presents design challenges". Challenges that the leading MMORPG development team in the world SHOULD be able to meet. The company that has repeatedly overcome design challenges in the past. And yet somehow we're meant to believe that putting flight in the game that already had it's two most popular expansions including flight....is HARMFUL!?!?

You can keep saying "no u" all you want. The burden of proof is on you to support your claim because I can very easily point to massively successful expansions where flight was part of the game and clearly NOT harmful.

Do you have ANYTHING to refute the simple existence of TBC and WOTLK?

Most people huh. Did you do a large scale poll or something? Oh right, you're pulling phantom numbers out of that doughnut hole again.

Yes: As in "most people who dislike pathfinder". I only made this clarification because there are some people, such as myself, that have more involved complaints about Pathfinder, and more extensive solutions. Whereas "most people who dislike pathfinder" simply don't like the giant 8 month window but are otherwise ok with it.

How can I know this with certainty? Because if you LIKE pathfinder you don't criticize it. So if I limit the scope of my post to "people who dislike pathfinder" it's fairly obvious.



Now that I've responded and defended my point of view somewhat, why don't you do the same. Tell us why you think the grounded design is better, or more beneficial. And PLEASE tell me you have something more substantial than "that's how Blizzard wants it". Because there's a direct conflict of interests there. Blizzard is going to do what's most profitable, not necessarily what's the best gameplay, or the most enjoyable for players. And if you conflate the two like so many others, then your position has already failed.

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Here, I'll even help you out a bit:

In order to substantiate the claim that "Flying is harmful to the game", you're basically going to have to prove that TBC and WotLK would have been better without flying than with it. The reason for this is that it's already established that TBC and WOTLK were at the height of subscription numbers and popularity for WoW's history. No other expansions have matched it. So you have to PROVE that those expansions would have been more popular without flying, or alternatively, PROVE that WoD, Legion, or BfA(which contain two of the most highly criticized expansions in WoW's history) are better than TBC and WotLK.

The entire argument against flying is based almost completely on the statements of a handful of Blizzard devs that amounts to "We don't like it". Every single argument that attempts to claim flying is somehow harmful to content has been easily refuted or shown to be based on faulty logic, or has a simple solution, such as "turn off flight while War Mode is toggled on".

The "flying is bad" idea is almost complete and total nonsense, and the supporters of it have almost nothing outside of a logical fallacy(appeal to authority). Good luck.,

[Cyranis]

Now that I've responded and defended my point of view somewhat, why don't you do the same. Tell us why you think the grounded design is better, or more beneficial. And PLEASE tell me you have something more substantial than "that's how Blizzard wants it". Because there's a direct conflict of interests there. Blizzard is going to do what's most profitable, not necessarily what's the best gameplay, or the most enjoyable for players. And if you conflate the two like so many others, then your position has already failed.

This is where you completely fail. Because you paint everything black and white, where no such distinction exists. Blizzard doesn't need to make choices in a vacuum. Their choice might be self serving. They might be oriented towards profit. But player retention and happiness are metrics in those equations. You are framing the argument like this because you know it can't be argued. But YOU are the one painting that box. You mention the entire argument against flying is based almost completely on the statements of a handful of Blizzard devs that amounts to "We don't like it". And you know what, that's a good enough reason. If YOU don't like it, you are welcome to bitch where-ever till your eyes and fingers bleed, make your own game, or play something else. Pushing the idea that because you make a good case or you just weally weally want it, and so do lots of like-minded phantom people, it should change .. is hilariously entitled. It's their game.

[SirCowdog]

This is where you completely fail. Because you paint everything black and white, where no such distinction exists. Blizzard doesn't need to make choices in a vacuum. Their choice might be self serving. They might be oriented towards profit. But player retention and happiness are metrics in those equations. You are framing the argument like this because you know it can't be argued. But YOU are the one painting that box. You mention the entire argument against flying is based almost completely on the statements of a handful of Blizzard devs that amounts to "We don't like it". And you know what, that's a good enough reason. If YOU don't like it, you are welcome to bitch where-ever till your eyes and fingers bleed, make your own game, or play something else. Pushing the idea that because you make a good case or you just weally weally want it, and so do lots of like-minded phantom people, it should change .. is hilariously entitled. It's their game.

Right, so because you don't have a point to make, or evidence to support it, or even convincing arguments, you resort to ambiguous platitudes. "This is how the devs want it so it's ok" , "Like it or gtfo", "it's their game".


Do you see why I said that almost all of the anti-flight arguments are nonsense? You guys NEVER back up your point of view and ALWAYS resort to the same old crap. I asked you to give us reasons why No-Flying is good, or makes the game better, and THIS is all you can come up with?

[Cyranis]

Diminished sense of scale
Zone pacing sacrifices
Increased development costs
Open world pvp
Immersion of a living breathing world diminished
Diminished exploration
enables bot farming of gathering nodes to a degree it wouldn't be possible otherwise

Just a few off the top

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...77123?page=1#6

There's a lot of discussion about flying/not-flying and I'd like to try to sum things up and maybe realign the discussion a bit. Some of the other threads are near-cap, some have really gone down tangents, so I'm just picking this one to throw a reply into. Apologies to the other threads.

We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor. No flying while leveling has been the case during Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Mists of Pandaria. We allowed flying during Cataclysm because as those zones were mixed-in with the 1-60 world it just would have been really jarring to dismount you as you fly into Hyjal, etc. but we would have disallowed it for Catalcysm zones as well if there was a reasonable solution there.

Flying trivializes combat. A lot of people like to say we're trying to force world PvP, or that we just really want people to look at the pretty trees we made, but those really aren't the reasons that drive this same decision we've made every expansion. Flying allows you to escape or enter combat at-will. There's a reason why flying isn't allowed in dungeons and raids, or battlegrounds and arenas, and that's because it would trivialize the core mechanic of the game in those areas - combat. For much the same reason it trivializes how content is approached in the outdoor world based on the simple fact that you can lift off and set down wherever you like.

So that's the main reason. But sure there are a lot of other problems it can cause for content design such as zones having to get a lot bigger because flying mounts can travel so quickly (and thus making ground travel in them take much longer), it reduces the impact of elevation within zones, it completely removes the ability for us to pace or present content in any structured way, and in general removes our ability to determine how and when players approach a situation, see a vista or location, or charge into/out-of a combat situation. It just greatly reduces any gameplay we want to create by allowing infinite choice in how content is approached to best suit a player's intention to (usually) avoid that content.

I totally sympathize with people's desire to do that, they want to be efficient and have it be their choice, but we have to balance our intent to create a game against creating a sandbox where anything goes. There's a happy medium there somewhere, but flying mounts in most cases just do too much to undermine too many of our core intentions with the game world, the basis of the game: combat, or guiding players through a game experience, and for those reasons we have continually chosen (when we could) to disallow flying mounts in the 'current' outdoor content. In the past that's meant only while leveling, but in our experiences with the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle we feel like we can extend that for a bit longer in the new content, and have it be kind of a big deal again once you're able to earn flying in the first big content patch, and in the meantime putting focus on flight paths as well as having some more interesting travel options for players to use.

[kamuimac]

Shareholders do njot give a damn about game development. AS long as the game makes money, they are happy. They don't care how you do it.

AN no, they are not going to lose their place as the leader in the MMO genre. Evey single game that has come out has failed to usurp them. Also, just because they have taken from other games in the past does not me they have to now. WoW is a 15 year old game. FFXIV is like 1/4th their age. Game age will cause WOW to eventually die. Nothing else.

never say never

FF 14 is in constant ongoing rising trend and are getting popular with each month

unlike blizz their newest expansion is universaly loved and praised to the point that many wow players who played for years now are swapping and are in love with it.

whileBfA is nothing but getting constant negative reviews and perception patch after patch .

for all we know WoW can already have less subs then FF 14 becuase blizzard is to scared to release them .

and content lul just started in wow - they will love even more people with how garbage patch 8.2 is.

[Aehl]

Blizzard's game. Blizzard's rules. You aren't entitled to anything but access to the servers if you sub or leave if you don't like the game.

I already have. Along with a LARGE slew of others who are fed up with that exact mantra

When you tell your paying customers "My way or the highway", dont be surprised when they say fine, bye.

[WowIsDead64]

Simple thing. Nazjatar is the greatest example of why flying is REQUIRED to play this game properly. And there were Highmountain and Stormheim back in Legion. So, it's some sort of dead loop. While Blizzard will be designing content, that requires flying to be played properly - flying will be required. When Blizzard will stop overcomplicating world design - flying will no longer be required. Blizzard want to push overcomplicated design. And no matter, if they want it or not - they make players want flying. Blizzard just need to give up and stop doing it or come out with better solution, such as providing content for BOTH categories of players at the same time. Another factor here - Blizzard just can't remove flying, no matter, how they want it. Just because back in old times they used flying as their major sale point. They have lots of flying mounts in their cash shop. Many players have bought that mounts. Removing flying would mean dealing legal sues. No matter, what their EULA says, but in many countries changing major defining properties of good after is has already been sold - is against law.

[Aehl]

Diminished sense of scale

Odd, FF 14 doesnt have this issue

Zone pacing sacrifices

:

Same answer as above. Then again, FF 14 devs arent lazy. Pacing is fine.

Increased development costs

Well they certainly fixed THAT by firing 800 people, didnt they?

Open world pvp:

Can go die in a fire. FF 14 pvp is a minigame and little else. WOW pvp is old hat, out of date, you will notice very FEW developers are all that hot on the concept that allowing online sociopaths free rein to drive other players away is viable.

To quote a GM on pvpers "Hyperaggressive, abusive personalities". When I mentioned their foul language, she agreed.

FF 14 is living proof that a 98% PVE game makes for better retention than "wurld pee vee pee" as an incentive.. There is no "wurld pee vee pee" in FF14 and there never will be.

WOW is 15 years out of date.

Immersion of a living breathing world diminished"

Subjective at best, and if you are going to use that, "muh immersion" is broken by that fact that in game every living thing can fly......except me..

Diminished exploration:

Garbage.

enables bot farming of gathering nodes to a degree it wouldn't be possible otherwise

And no other game has bots.

You sound a lot like that obnoxious Metro MVP.

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FF 14: Do MSQ, do some small exploration puzzles, find the currents and done. Finished in a few days.

WOW: Do a massive rep grind and a load of content, then wait a year, ride out a massive content drought to do part 2, and then fly.

Flight was never an issue till Blizzard made it one.

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AN no, they are not going to lose their place as the leader in the MMO genre

Did anyone ever tell you that pride goeth before a fall?