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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    +1) The Bwonsamdi buff if you failed the timer. It made it less frustrating if you got stuck somewhere, also reset your BL, it was nice for people that weren't so focused.
    That's another prime example that makes me think blizzard is all over the place and kind of clueless of what they want. They gave us the Bwonsamdi buff so people wont instant leave when they fail the dungeon or still have a way to complete the dungeon if they lose a DPS. And now they just remove it?

  2. #62
    The Lightbringer
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    I only do 10s because that's all that I care about. 10s are still just as simple as ever and felt no different without a few things to AOE whenever but that's 10s you overgear for you.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    You must deal with them in the way Blizz intended you to.
    What the hell does this even mean? Games are better when you can break them, cheat and exploit, right? Stupid blizzard devs making my game, I'll show them!

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    What the hell does this even mean? Games are better when you can break them, cheat and exploit, right? Stupid blizzard devs making my game, I'll show them!
    What could you break, cheat and exploit in Reaping?

    You can't claim that Beguiling provides more freedom of choice than Reaping did. Or if you do, go ahead, make an argument.

  5. #65
    Scarab Lord Leih's Avatar
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    With all the doom and gloom in here I was prepared for something truly horrible when I did my 10s this week but it's not really that bad at all. It throws in some different strategies you have to deal with into the pulls. Any attempt to do that is somewhat welcome considering by this point we've been running the same set of dungeons with the same pulls for a while.
    Looking for laid-back casual raiding on EU?
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Poe View Post
    You could completely skip the entire last wave of reaping depending on the dungeon.

    Doesn't count as a cheat per say but obviously wasn't intended by design.
    If it wasn't intended then why didn't they "fix" it during the 6 months?
    Because it was. They never said they weren't okay with it.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Poe View Post
    They've already admitted that reaping was a mistake due to how easy it was. I don't think they cared enough to fix an already undertuned affix.
    Nice answer that has nothing to do with the question.

    They could've fixed it in a day y'know. You're grasping at your own fan-fic now.

    Also: Please link me something where they literally said "reaping was a mistake".

    edit2.: Or you can just delete your BS and pretend that you didn't say a bunch of stupid shit. That works too.
    Last edited by NabyBro; 2019-07-15 at 02:54 PM.

  8. #68
    The void emissary since the "hotfix" can be cheesed, just pull all the mobs around it and drag them to Africa to outrage the void cast, kill them, then solo the emissary. It will pull all the patrols around it as it's in combat, but it won't gain any stacks as they changed it to debuff on players, not buff on mob, so you can outrange it, not get any stacks, and then have a clean kill on it.

    The other ones are more annoying because they move with the mobs, and the knockback one still has potential of pulling extras with badly aimed knockback.

  9. #69
    I am Murloc! Chonar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Fun ways? There is only one way... Kill boss before getting 100% then get the last percentage.

    Which was done with either rogue or invis pot.
    The method was different per dungeon and there were multiple ways in which someone in the party could make a mistake or it could backfire.

    I dunno, I just liked it more than Ghuun shitlings crawling 1000 miles at Mach 12 to reach a mob.
    If World of Warcraft has taught me anything, it's that teaching a crowd something is far harder than teaching individuals.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonar View Post
    The method was different per dungeon and there were multiple ways in which someone in the party could make a mistake or it could backfire.

    I dunno, I just liked it more than Ghuun shitlings crawling 1000 miles at Mach 12 to reach a mob.
    Well yeah. Ghuun adds we're annoying especially since failure could lead to harder packs after wipe in more cases than not.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Without a timer there's actually no point to even have m+ in the game. It's supposed to be a challenge. Without the timer there's no reason to plan pulls, routes, anything. You can do whatever the fuck you want. You died? No problem, no timer anyway. Wipe? No problem, no timer anyway.

    People who complain about the m+ timer is probably the same people I laugh at when they queue to my keys.

    If you can't complete a 10 in time - you're either SEVERELY undergeared (350?) or you're just bad. It's as easy as that. The only reason people deplete keys is because they're not good enough for that key level. Made a mistake? Learn from it and get better.

    "The timer is the problem" Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
    So first, I like how with no evidence, my dislike of timers as a progression mechanism is all you need to try and cheaply dunk on my ability as a player. You're clearly intellectually capable of participating in this argument with that approach /sarcasm.

    If you have any interest in a real conversation, here are my points:

    1) The timer isn't necessary for a progression system. Raiding has done just fine without instance timers (obviously enrage timers in encounters serve a specific purpose and are useful in that regard and create a certain strategic tension that makes sense) for decades. Blizzard is clearly capable of creating a scaling difficulty with a pass/fail bar for progression, as they have done with different difficulty modes in raiding for a long time.

    2) Timers do not create a difficulty barrier that is insurmountable, clearly they do not, and clearly blizzard would adjust them to be appropriate if they did. What they do create however, is a distaste for mechanics that promote complex thought, or trial and error, or strategic adaptation during the run. The reason for this is, in this case, one can make the appropriate choices strategically to overcome the obstacle, but still fail the timer because they did not arrive at that solution quickly enough. This is evidenced by the fact that Reaping, a static strategic obstacle, that with the minor exception of its conjunction with the teeming affix, occurs the same way and forces the same strategic planning each week was relatively well received, while Infested and Beguiling, a pair of dynamic strategic challenges, specifically designed by blizzard to create different challenges by their placement each week and require on the fly strategic adaptation, have been comparatively poorly received, and this season's participation numbers will likely bear that out. Blizzard wants on the fly strategic decision making in mythic plus. This strategic depth makes it more interesting to both watch and participate in. The affixes are clearly designed with that in mind. That mixes poorly with the timer. "We want you to stop and think sometimes" is naturally at odds with "we're putting you on the clock".

  12. #72
    The problem with Beguiling as with many aspects of the game as of late is that it feels very contrived, clinical, formulaic rather than natural, intuitive, organic. It's almost as if they designed the affix with the sole purpose of nurturing as much of the fun as possible from these dungeons. Why would they do that?

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    So first, I like how with no evidence, my dislike of timers as a progression mechanism is all you need to try and cheaply dunk on my ability as a player. You're clearly intellectually capable of participating in this argument with that approach /sarcasm.

    If you have any interest in a real conversation, here are my points:

    1) The timer isn't necessary for a progression system. Raiding has done just fine without instance timers (obviously enrage timers in encounters serve a specific purpose and are useful in that regard and create a certain strategic tension that makes sense) for decades. Blizzard is clearly capable of creating a scaling difficulty with a pass/fail bar for progression, as they have done with different difficulty modes in raiding for a long time.

    2) Timers do not create a difficulty barrier that is insurmountable, clearly they do not, and clearly blizzard would adjust them to be appropriate if they did. What they do create however, is a distaste for mechanics that promote complex thought, or trial and error, or strategic adaptation during the run. The reason for this is, in this case, one can make the appropriate choices strategically to overcome the obstacle, but still fail the timer because they did not arrive at that solution quickly enough. This is evidenced by the fact that Reaping, a static strategic obstacle, that with the minor exception of its conjunction with the teeming affix, occurs the same way and forces the same strategic planning each week was relatively well received, while Infested and Beguiling, a pair of dynamic strategic challenges, specifically designed by blizzard to create different challenges by their placement each week and require on the fly strategic adaptation, have been comparatively poorly received, and this season's participation numbers will likely bear that out. Blizzard wants on the fly strategic decision making in mythic plus. This strategic depth makes it more interesting to both watch and participate in. The affixes are clearly designed with that in mind. That mixes poorly with the timer. "We want you to stop and think sometimes" is naturally at odds with "we're putting you on the clock".
    I merely made assumptions in regards to your capability as a player. At no point did I make remarks regarding your intellect - so I assume I hit a cord there. But alright, I'll bite;

    1) If you're comparing M+ dungeons with raiding then sure, you make sense. However, you might as well compare it with arena, RBGs, World Quests - they're not the same type of content and thus are not comparable. If you're going to compare it to raiding, then you'll have to do that with mythic dungeons, normal or heroic. Not m+. Furthering discussing this point is a bit pointless since we're comparing apples to oranges. However - if raids had a timer, then it would suddenly become a lot more important to figure out tactics, make strategies, etc. It would only make it require a more strategic approach. See for instance the limited pulls you had in ICC back in the day, or achievements like The Immortals in Naxx, and so on. If anything, a timer makes the strategic part of the game a lot more important and complex.

    2) Completely wrong. You think people who push high keys doesn't plan ahead, make "complex thought, or trial or errors"? That's exactly what we do - we do a key on X level to plan for a more difficult key level. We try, we fail, we improve, we adapt. If you kill a raid boss on mythic, that's going to be the exact same boss, strategy, etc next week - for m+ it'll continue to increase in difficulty so that more planning is required each time.

    I'm fairly sure you're a player that plays the game at a level where there isn't really much planning required for m+, meaning that in season 2 you probably only did keys at 15 or below? Since those keys can be zerged without much coordination.

    The new affix and scaling of dungeons now make m+ harder than before, so I'm fairly sure you'll find them as an improvement from season 2.

    And no - there is no "on the fly decision strategic decision making" in high mythic plus keys. The entire dungeon - every interrupt rotation on every mob is planned ahead and tested on lower key levels. It really just seems like you're not playing m+ on a level where planning is required.

    In mythic +, if you make a mistake, your key can deplete and go down in difficulty. In raids you have endless attempts. Mythic plus pushing requires far more planning, practice, testing than raiding ever will, unless you're a top 10 guild.

  14. #74
    Finally did a couple of 10 keys, outside the timer though.
    I really like the affix so far.

    It's definitely interesting and it definitely doesn't feel completely irrelevant, like Reaping did.

  15. #75
    To be honest like someone said above, after reading through here I was very cautious going into my first +10 last week. But after dealing with all the different emmisaries once, they are really not that hard. I think combining with the fact that they can be at different locations every week, this can result in some interesting routes every week. Instead of just doing the exact same route every week regardless of affixes.

    One thing that did surprise me was the fact that the cannons in Tol Dagor suddenly have limited resources... we were not prepared for that.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    The problem is a lot of players only want to sit on the side of the line that says 'anything in my way is not ok' or 'only a mindless aoe zerg (like reaping) is acceptable' - and thats not good for the game either.

    Sometimes players need to be saved from themselves, else theyd only insist on mindless mechanics which require little to no finesse or thought.

    The only real suggestion id give for Beguiling is the mobs give you a small bonus for killing them, even if its more psychological in how it affects the run. EG killing one of the emissaries gives +5% dam for 60 seconds, another reduces enemy detection range for 15 seconds (maybe letting you skip a pack you otherwise wouldnt), another gives +25% runspeed for 30 seconds. Something small that doesnt add up to much in the end, but helps encourage ppl to think killing the mobs wasnt just a chore thats interfering with their efficient ways to end the dungeon but gave some tangible assistance.
    I really liken your idea

  17. #77
    I did a ML+10 this morning without any void emissary on our way. That was unexpected but welcomed. I don't know if Blizzard nerfed their spawn rate or if the beguiling adds distribution is random. But we have been particulary lucky.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2019-07-17 at 12:30 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamy View Post
    I think combining with the fact that they can be at different locations every week, this can result in some interesting routes every week.
    Which is in fact really shitty competition/comparability wise. Now you not only have affix combinations that might span from free loot to impossible but also have to take emissary placements into consideration. Randomness is never a good factor for e-sports.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Donimic View Post
    In a +10 their HP is 1.07m, if you cant kill them in 18 seconds (15k per dps and 7k for tanks/healers) then you are not going to meet the timer anyways. Void Emissaries are not that hard at lower keys. Sure they are annoying but there is literally no need to LoS their casts. Just face tank the first cast (50% of your hp), pop a defensive is somehow your dps is shit and cant make the 2nd (75% of your hp). Even if you fail and the second cast goes off because people refuse to single-target or whatever, that gives you until 27 seconds which you would literalyl have to be doign sub 10k dps in order to be 1-shot without any personals.

    Now as keys scale it is a different story their dmg stays the same but hp goes up, it takes around a +14 for their hp to get to ~2mil but if you are doing a +14 this week you are probably with it enough to survive until the third cast at which point you STILL need sub 20k dps to kill it, even in an AoE setting.
    this was on first day of the patch, like 30 mins after reset, and the first time probably ANYONE had seen the emissaries,

    we were all sitting on about 18-20k dps avg the entire run, but the emmisaries back then also got a damage increase buff, and where with other mobs, so you had to ignore other mobs mechanics and BURST the void emmisaries, which is nigh on impossible with shamans and shield wall adds in ataldazar buffing them, hence why i said it wasnt melee freindly, as if you took range, you could tank all the trash off the emmisary, and then burn it down with range,
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

    If you are trying to AE tank and a bad dps is attacking the wrong target and dies, we call that justice.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    I merely made assumptions in regards to your capability as a player. At no point did I make remarks regarding your intellect - so I assume I hit a cord there. But alright, I'll bite;
    The phrase is struck a nerve, striking a cord is an expression of harmony, not disharmony, and no, I don't particularly care, it only grinds my gears when the level I choose to play at is fallaciously used to dismiss my opinions as invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    1) If you're comparing M+ dungeons with raiding then sure, you make sense. However, you might as well compare it with arena, RBGs, World Quests - they're not the same type of content and thus are not comparable. If you're going to compare it to raiding, then you'll have to do that with mythic dungeons, normal or heroic. Not m+. Furthering discussing this point is a bit pointless since we're comparing apples to oranges. However - if raids had a timer, then it would suddenly become a lot more important to figure out tactics, make strategies, etc. It would only make it require a more strategic approach. See for instance the limited pulls you had in ICC back in the day, or achievements like The Immortals in Naxx, and so on. If anything, a timer makes the strategic part of the game a lot more important and complex.
    The time actually has the opposite effect. The timer drastically limits how complex the boss fights can be made and how tightly they can be tuned in mythic+, because you have to allow some forgiveness for accumulated mistakes throughout a run, or (or in the case of blizzard's chosen path and) you have to cap the reward structure at a trivial difficulty level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    2) Completely wrong. You think people who push high keys doesn't plan ahead, make "complex thought, or trial or errors"? That's exactly what we do - we do a key on X level to plan for a more difficult key level. We try, we fail, we improve, we adapt. If you kill a raid boss on mythic, that's going to be the exact same boss, strategy, etc next week - for m+ it'll continue to increase in difficulty so that more planning is required each time.
    Ahead is the word at the crux of your misunderstanding here. I don't doubt that people pushing the keystone leaderboards do substantial strategic planning around their runs. However, the design space for the developers in mythic+ is hamstrung by the timer. Mechanics that have a strong degree of variance, and force adaptive thinking, particularly those that would affect strategy at a macro scale (i.e. how you plan your route) are terrible when implemented in a timed environment, because success against that timer pushes all planning and thinking to occur before the run begins, so there is no room for adapting during the execution of the run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    I'm fairly sure you're a player that plays the game at a level where there isn't really much planning required for m+, meaning that in season 2 you probably only did keys at 15 or below? Since those keys can be zerged without much coordination.

    The new affix and scaling of dungeons now make m+ harder than before, so I'm fairly sure you'll find them as an improvement from season 2.

    And no - there is no "on the fly decision strategic decision making" in high mythic plus keys. The entire dungeon - every interrupt rotation on every mob is planned ahead and tested on lower key levels. It really just seems like you're not playing m+ on a level where planning is required.

    In mythic +, if you make a mistake, your key can deplete and go down in difficulty. In raids you have endless attempts. Mythic plus pushing requires far more planning, practice, testing than raiding ever will, unless you're a top 10 guild.
    I don't run any keys in season 3 other than to support my wife who streams M+ and carries her viewers. I ran keys in season 2 to a +10 level or thereabouts to obtain the required gear rewards to support raiding, until I stopped raiding, at which point I also stopped running keys. I understand and appreciate the level of planning that goes into higher keys. I don't enjoy it, for the reasons we're discussing. That however has nothing to do with the validity of my point. So if you don't have substantive argument beyond this, then please concede the point and move on.

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