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  1. #21
    As others have said before, the current week has hard affixes that many players will not find fun totally regardless of the new seasonal.

    From what i saw today the best approach is to nuke the maides down, except for the one that reflects damage, of course. I have a strong feeling that most players will like the affix a lot less than reapin. Reaping was extremely easy (to the point where you could just ignore it completely), visually impressive and allowed everybody to generate extreme AOE DPS. Most players love big DPS, the pupose does not matter. The affix is "ok" from my POV...but imho after reapin a lot of players will be too spoiled to give it a fair chance.

    Reaping was basically designed as a reward for players, not an additional difficulty.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwielder View Post
    Hello!

    Please post your experiences in S3 dungeons here. Initially I was very apprehensive about Reaping but as most, I grew to like it. I'm very curious about this new affix and how it changes M+ meta and game play. See you in M+!

    Thank you.
    all i can say is, we did an 11 Atal, and it did not favour Melee in the slightest, in the normal path people take there were 5 void emissaries, strat for them is to burn the 1.4m HP before they get their second cast or its a wipe,

    yuo can have a range deal with them and backpedal/move out of range of cast at last second, but that adds time.

    the immune/cc/interupt one can be dealt with by someone taunting it out of the group, and just face tanking it,

    the 150% blowback can be dealt with by 1 range just spamming something on it, then repeating when it gets close to your trashpack.

    in all hnesty, the INterupt, and Void ones are annoying,
    depending on Dungeon the CC ones suck, for instance the Flwoers in Underott that hard cc someone for 30 seconds. has an emissary there.
    the 150% blowback one, is a pain in waycrest.

    but all in all the void one is the worst. as its a wipe with some trash packs regardless of what you do.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

    If you are trying to AE tank and a bad dps is attacking the wrong target and dies, we call that justice.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    The problem is a lot of players only want to sit on the side of the line that says 'anything in my way is not ok' or 'only a mindless aoe zerg (like reaping) is acceptable' - and thats not good for the game either.

    Sometimes players need to be saved from themselves, else theyd only insist on mindless mechanics which require little to no finesse or thought.

    The only real suggestion id give for Beguiling is the mobs give you a small bonus for killing them, even if its more psychological in how it affects the run. EG killing one of the emissaries gives +5% dam for 60 seconds, another reduces enemy detection range for 15 seconds (maybe letting you skip a pack you otherwise wouldnt), another gives +25% runspeed for 30 seconds. Something small that doesnt add up to much in the end, but helps encourage ppl to think killing the mobs wasnt just a chore thats interfering with their efficient ways to end the dungeon but gave some tangible assistance.
    Fully agree. My run went fine cause TD has lots of corners to hide round and group comp was ideal. I'm hoping beguiled mobs placement is better in open areas of some dungeons (looking at you AD). Blizz has a tendency to take this affix and slap it to every dungeon thinking it's going to be fine when it really isn't.
    Softbottom - Stormscale

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    The problem is a lot of players only want to sit on the side of the line that says 'anything in my way is not ok' or 'only a mindless aoe zerg (like reaping) is acceptable' - and thats not good for the game either.
    The problem is, and has always been the timer as the progression mechanism. Putting the dungeon on the clock puts people in a hurry, and makes mechanics that reward careful play seem tedious and irritating.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kikazz View Post
    all i can say is, we did an 11 Atal, and it did not favour Melee in the slightest, in the normal path people take there were 5 void emissaries, strat for them is to burn the 1.4m HP before they get their second cast or its a wipe,.
    In a +10 their HP is 1.07m, if you cant kill them in 18 seconds (15k per dps and 7k for tanks/healers) then you are not going to meet the timer anyways. Void Emissaries are not that hard at lower keys. Sure they are annoying but there is literally no need to LoS their casts. Just face tank the first cast (50% of your hp), pop a defensive is somehow your dps is shit and cant make the 2nd (75% of your hp). Even if you fail and the second cast goes off because people refuse to single-target or whatever, that gives you until 27 seconds which you would literalyl have to be doign sub 10k dps in order to be 1-shot without any personals.

    Now as keys scale it is a different story their dmg stays the same but hp goes up, it takes around a +14 for their hp to get to ~2mil but if you are doing a +14 this week you are probably with it enough to survive until the third cast at which point you STILL need sub 20k dps to kill it, even in an AoE setting.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ramayana1423 View Post
    It's actually staggering how much less fun it is than Reaping.
    Reaping was such a non factor most of the time and you could almost always skip the last 1. This just forces new routes and lets specs that weren't in the meta before shine in some areas. It is going to gut higher run keys though.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  7. #27
    I did a +10 WCM on my undergeared monk tank and I have to say I enjoyed it a lot more than Reaping in that dungeon. But it's a pain in the ass in open layouts.

  8. #28
    Its annoying as fuck. Also if you can't kill shadow add on +10 in time you honestly shouldnt be doing 10s at all its not a content for you

  9. #29
    Did +17 UR with 14 minutes overtime. beguiling mobs weren't a problem at all really. Void mobs could easily be killed before the third (and killing) blast, the bubble ones did nothing and we only killed one CC guy during the run so idk we just blasted it down, not much to say.

    Most deaths came from the mobs before first boss, they hit pretty hard on top of packs taking like 45 secs to a minute to kill each due to the new scaling. Felt like doing a 21 or 22 prepatch.

  10. #30
    Another thing to know: the void's emissaries don't regen their health if you wipe on them. It prevents from wiping endlessly. They had 1,4 M HP on my +10. But I don't know if fortified increases their HP, or if their HP is set regardless of fortified/tyrannical.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2019-07-13 at 12:04 AM.

  11. #31
    Beguiling mobs are the least concern right now, they couldn't have picked a more brutal affix combo to try and manage the new scaling with. If you die to a beguiling mob you just failed a really simply mechanic, dealing with the fortified trash with grievous is far more dangerous and grievous also makes some bosses worse then tyranical non grievous versions.

  12. #32
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    I can already tell I won't like this affix, and it's not because of the actual emissaries themselves, but the random nature of them.

    Waycrest is a fine instance for example, but getting top right is absolutely awful. King's Rest is generally awful most of the time, but it's far more awful if Tyrannical lines up with a certain weekly order of the third boss. Freehold, an instance that is generally perceived as well, 'free', also has the same annoying side effect as KR does, but having the captains line up terribly with Tyrannical (making it a lot harder than some weeks).

    Where am I going with this?

    Rotations basically.

    Something that irks me and probably a vast amount of other people are teeming weeks. Teeming by itself might be tolerable, but having 25% of your weeks being routed completely differently because of this affix feels really awful. I don't remember teeming changing routing in Legion nearly as much as it does in BFA. One of the reasons infested was annoying wasn't simply because of the mechanic itself, but how it changed routing every single week.

    What are emissaries? Basically a worse version of infested honestly. I actually don't mind the mechanics of them and actually do think they are 'interesting' to deal with, but my issue with them is that they change every single fucking week changing routing completely. 2/3 of the emissaries add to mob count (which is good), but it doesn't feel good because the emissaries will generally dictate what path you should be taking.

    Add all of this together and it just feels really bad. You have far more instances with rotational bosses or starting areas compared to Legion with teeming effecting routing far more in BFA than it did in Legion as well. On top of rotating affixes you also have a fixed affix at 10 or higher that cycles between different configurations on a weekly basis as well, essentially ruining any sort of common routing you might have been accustom to.

    Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but Legion dungeon design was absolutely superior without them even thinking about it. I'm not advocating for easy affixes or anything of that nature, but it feels like a fucking chore to have drastically different paths in a single dungeon every single week. The biggest draw of Legion dungeons for me is that that routing was mostly the same every single week and for the most part you just played with the affixes that were presented to you. BFA dungeons just increasingly feel like a chore with affixes like infested/beguiling because every single week is different. Having to route differently every single week feels awful personally.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    snip
    While teeming does change the route(and teeming is a poorly thought out affix that shouldn't exist but discussion for another day/thread)... infested never changed the route. You literally CC infested and pull your normal route and don't deal with infested until you're ready to, changed nothing other then a minor slow down.

    Beguiling has a little more to it then infested but I also highly doubt it's going to change the route weekly much at all. Knock back add is a joke to deal with, cc blocker is only an issue if in a pack that requires interupts and that might be the single thing that can change a route. Void is literally the same as infested, except you don't even need to CC it, pull the pack away and deal with her when you're ready to.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2019-07-13 at 05:27 AM.

  14. #34
    3 dps using the M+ essence and the revered punchcard trinket equals 1mil dmg done in like 4 seconds. Hopefully people will pick up on that sooner or later.
    Last edited by burek; 2019-07-13 at 02:38 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Alvito View Post
    Reaping was such a non factor most of the time and you could almost always skip the last 1. This just forces new routes and lets specs that weren't in the meta before shine in some areas. It is going to gut higher run keys though.
    his point was it was fun because you didnt have to do anything useful to deal with the affix. stop trying to be sensible

  16. #36
    havoc main here, did 4 +14~16 keys today, quite easy after the nerfs to void, you can tank 1 hit and dps for 18 secs los 1 and repeat (in case your dps is garbo) the other 2 are a joke.
    BFA Season 2


  17. #37
    Not as bad as Infested, worse than Reaping. It slows down the pace of dungeons and prevents a lot of multi-pack pulls, which are already harder to do in BfA than Legion because each trash mob has more abilities than most 5man bosses. Pretty unfortunate really, Reaping was starting to undo the damage Infested had done to M+ participation/enjoyment and then they get rid of it and replace it with something shitty.
    One of the big things is that Infested and Beguiling both rely on Blizzard putting the special mobs in reasonable spots in the dungeon(which they're really bad at), whereas Reaping gave the players almost full control over when and where to trigger it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    The problem is a lot of players only want to sit on the side of the line that says 'anything in my way is not ok' or 'only a mindless aoe zerg (like reaping) is acceptable' - and thats not good for the game either.

    Sometimes players need to be saved from themselves, else theyd only insist on mindless mechanics which require little to no finesse or thought.

    The only real suggestion id give for Beguiling is the mobs give you a small bonus for killing them, even if its more psychological in how it affects the run. EG killing one of the emissaries gives +5% dam for 60 seconds, another reduces enemy detection range for 15 seconds (maybe letting you skip a pack you otherwise wouldnt), another gives +25% runspeed for 30 seconds. Something small that doesnt add up to much in the end, but helps encourage ppl to think killing the mobs wasnt just a chore thats interfering with their efficient ways to end the dungeon but gave some tangible assistance.
    This was what I was kinda hoping would save Beguiling, because Wowhead datamined some buffs that seemed like rewards for dealing with each emissary, but it turns out they were for something else(or just not used). Rewarding you for dealing with the affix slowing you down massively seemed like an okay tradeoff, but having them only slow you down with nothing to make up for it is just annoying.
    I just really don't think that having the seasonal affix be something that massively slows down the pace of M+ is a good thing, because it's there every week. Compare that to affixes that slow you down like bolstering or bursting, which are only active some weeks, giving you a bit of a break between them. It taints the entire season by fucking the pace, rather than just altering the way you pull a bit.
    We also already have 2 affix slots for things that can slow us down(and 1 slot that guaranteed slows us down in the form of fortified/tyrannical), the seasonal one doesn't need to do that as well, it can be a bit more minor in that regard.
    Last edited by Tradu; 2019-07-13 at 09:09 PM.

  18. #38
    It seems pugs got problems with new affix. Most people fail a lot or have no idea what to do. I was in like 10 groups inkeys between +10 +14 with people with score between 1.6k and 2.5k.

    People were slow, confused on what to do, what route should they go etc. Current affixes clearly made new lvl 10 affix harder than reaping.

  19. #39
    High Overlord Denso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Druitz View Post
    It seems pugs got problems with new affix. Most people fail a lot or have no idea what to do. I was in like 10 groups inkeys between +10 +14 with people with score between 1.6k and 2.5k.

    People were slow, confused on what to do, what route should they go etc. Current affixes clearly made new lvl 10 affix harder than reaping.
    Wouldn't you just put that in the "new to us" category?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    The problem is, and has always been the timer as the progression mechanism. Putting the dungeon on the clock puts people in a hurry, and makes mechanics that reward careful play seem tedious and irritating.
    Without a timer there's actually no point to even have m+ in the game. It's supposed to be a challenge. Without the timer there's no reason to plan pulls, routes, anything. You can do whatever the fuck you want. You died? No problem, no timer anyway. Wipe? No problem, no timer anyway.

    People who complain about the m+ timer is probably the same people I laugh at when they queue to my keys.

    If you can't complete a 10 in time - you're either SEVERELY undergeared (350?) or you're just bad. It's as easy as that. The only reason people deplete keys is because they're not good enough for that key level. Made a mistake? Learn from it and get better.

    "The timer is the problem" Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlofski View Post
    Exactly what I wanted to say.

    It's perfect when the dungeon is designed to be strategic and without a timer, simply a long hard dungeon to clear, like they used to be.
    Nowadays with people wanting to clear within timer mainly, it only serves as a nuisance and a delay to the end goal.
    Clearly you guys are complaining about mythic dungeons, or even heroic or normal - not mythic+. Mythic+ isn't a replacement for old dungeon design.

    If you really feel that way then the answer is easy - mythic+ is not for you. It's the harsh truth.

    Again. Please for the love of god stop comparing m+ to normal dungeons.

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