1. #1

    about our fellow undead characters

    Howdy yall.

    So I wanted to ask, nathanos and sylvanas, are they dead? if they are, then why are their bodies in pristine top-notch condition? I see not a single imperfection in their humanoid physiology aside from the skin color change.

  2. #2
    Cause Sylvanas is basically possessing her body and has arguably the best skin care program from her valkyr.
    Nathanos got his body rejuvenated in a valkyr ritual recently (involving sacrificing a relative of his).

    Also cause they're main characters and they need to be appealing and stuff.
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  3. #3
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    They're both still undead, yes. Sylvanas is rather vain, so once her original corpse was located she had it had restored and strengthened, basically making as close to her living form as she could get and still be undead. Nathanos had his desiccated and rotting corpse rejuvenated by a powerful ritual using the "donated" flesh of a former living relative.

    Most of the Forsaken are in a wretched state because they either died violently and horrifically or they had been dead for a long time before being raised by the Scourge - they're in various states of rotting and/or falling apart. Undeath doesn't require this, however, and there are many types of undead beings (Death Knights, San'layn, etc.) who appear as more or less "alive" or at least intact, betraying only a few giveaways that they're not living beings such as their pallor, glowing eyes, and what have you.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  4. #4
    Pandaren Monk Void Fallen's Avatar
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    Sylvanas and Nathanos are no longer a rarity. Pretty much every Undead High Elf and Undead Kaldorei are also very well-preserved in spite of their status as undead.
    The Void can be used to protect the world, not to destroy it. But as with any weapon or magic, one must learn to wield it correctly.

  5. #5
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Void Fallen View Post
    Sylvanas and Nathanos are no longer a rarity. Pretty much every Undead High Elf and Undead Kaldorei are also very well-preserved in spite of their status as undead.
    Based on older lore, it seems like High/Blood and Night Elves become Banshee-like creatures in undeath - so it's possible that instead of undergoing the degradation Humans do (seemingly instantaneously in some cases) the Val'kyr just sort of force-deposit their new ghostly forms back into their otherwise incorrupt corpses in emulation of what Sylvanas did when she regained her own body. Otherwise it's possible that newly-minted Forsaken aren't decaying wrecks and just use the standard Forsaken model due to game client limitations.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  6. #6

  7. #7
    Death Knights also appear to be in pretty pristine condition. Basically forsaken are trash tier undead.

  8. #8
    Old God Shampro's Avatar
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    Most Dark Rangers (which is what also Sylvanas is) are in condition:




  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    They're both still undead, yes. Sylvanas is rather vain, so once her original corpse was located she had it had restored and strengthened, basically making as close to her living form as she could get and still be undead. Nathanos had his desiccated and rotting corpse rejuvenated by a powerful ritual using the "donated" flesh of a former living relative.

    Most of the Forsaken are in a wretched state because they either died violently and horrifically or they had been dead for a long time before being raised by the Scourge - they're in various states of rotting and/or falling apart. Undeath doesn't require this, however, and there are many types of undead beings (Death Knights, San'layn, etc.) who appear as more or less "alive" or at least intact, betraying only a few giveaways that they're not living beings such as their pallor, glowing eyes, and what have you.
    Interesting. So then, does the pleasure system still work in them? You know, how to say this without sounding offensive. I apologize in advance. But, can Nathanos (in theory), get his rod up? Does the magic that preserves his body also reactive his pleasure system? his nerves, his blood flow, his ability to feel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hextor View Post
    Cause Sylvanas is basically possessing her body and has arguably the best skin care program from her valkyr.
    Nathanos got his body rejuvenated in a valkyr ritual recently (involving sacrificing a relative of his).

    Also cause they're main characters and they need to be appealing and stuff.
    Technically, we are all puppeteering/possessing our own bodies. When we die, our soul, our energy, leaves our body and moves on whereas sylvanas decided to jump back in.

    Like even in real life, you, me, all humans, we are puppeteering our bodies. The real stuff is inside of our bodies, our bodies house our soul/energy. Once our body grows old and dies, our soul/energy departs.

    You'll be surprised but recent studies in neuroscience are trying to find out where exactly the brain houses our soul/energy and whether it can be extracted and transferred over to a different body. Especially for people who are physically disabled and need a new body.
    Last edited by gurutikka; 2019-07-12 at 12:06 AM.

  10. #10
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurutikka View Post
    Interesting. So then, does the pleasure system still work in them? You know, how to say this without sounding offensive. I apologize in advance. But, can Nathanos (in theory), get his rod up? Does the magic that preserves his body also reactive his pleasure system? his nerves, his blood flow, his ability to feel?
    It's doubtful - they're still dead, all the internal bodily processes basically halted. Some materials even state that Sylvanas specifically is full of dust, that you can see it puff from her mouth when she speaks. Nathanos is probably in a similar state. Warcraft's undead are sustained by shadow energies and not the biological processes of organic life, their wounds don't self-repair and their bodily processes don't work, for example any healing they get is either pseudo-surgical (e.g. the grafting of donor limbs and so forth) or magical in nature.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  11. #11
    Yes they are dead. Sylvanas has been rendered into a very dead state at least twice already (Via Arthas and by her own hand). Nathanos was previously a very undead decayed forsaken.

    There are various reasons why they look so well maintained...Sylvanas has sort of varied based on whatever author was telling teh story and more recently she got a different appearance in much the same way Anduin did (people always pretty up the main characters). Nathanos is a different story where they had him undergo a ritual to take another body that was freshly killed and he got a form more akin to other dark rangers.

  12. #12
    Nathanos and Sylvanas have excuses. Proudmoore less so. Incineration is apparently a lot less disintegratey than I remember. Though there's that one Dar'khan guy who came back just fine after being literally burned to ash, so we at least have precedent.

  13. #13
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Nathanos and Sylvanas have excuses. Proudmoore less so. Incineration is apparently a lot less disintegratey than I remember. Though there's that one Dar'khan guy who came back just fine after being literally burned to ash, so we at least have precedent.
    I heard a decent theory that Proudmoore was protected by the Tidesage enchantments on the Kul Tiran ships - basically prevented him from being completely decimated by dragon fire and preserved his corpse in the sea so long as he remained close to the ship itself. Not so sure it's the canon reason as to why he was so incorrupt and intact after so long a time dead at sea (and in light of what he died of in the first place), but it's a good theory all the same.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  14. #14
    I am Murloc! Zuben's Avatar
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    Lore on Forsaken corporeal beings used to be "preserved decay", as in their bodies were in the state it had decayed to by the time they were raised into undeath, but from then on it would remain as it was.

    This was retconned in Nathanos's short story and revisited in Before The Storm. Nathanos noted his body was becoming less and less capable, less able to handle the rough requirements of a ranger's lifestyle. The rejuvenation ritual fixed this, but it required a fresh body and the val'kyr performing the ritual lost a portion of her.. being or whatever. In BtS it was revealed the regular Forsaken fix their bodies with replacement parts from unused corpses whenever their original parts get damaged enough to become unusable or below the standard of what it needs to be able to perform. Because of this a philosophy of just dying out is gaining popularity among them, which is something Sylvanas found insulting. I don't know how prevalent this view is nowadays, after the events of BtS.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Lore on Forsaken corporeal beings used to be "preserved decay", as in their bodies were in the state it had decayed to by the time they were raised into undeath, but from then on it would remain as it was.

    This was retconned in Nathanos's short story and revisited in Before The Storm. Nathanos noted his body was becoming less and less capable, less able to handle the rough requirements of a ranger's lifestyle. The rejuvenation ritual fixed this, but it required a fresh body and the val'kyr performing the ritual lost a portion of her.. being or whatever. In BtS it was revealed the regular Forsaken fix their bodies with replacement parts from unused corpses whenever their original parts get damaged enough to become unusable or below the standard of what it needs to be able to perform. Because of this a philosophy of just dying out is gaining popularity among them, which is something Sylvanas found insulting. I don't know how prevalent this view is nowadays, after the events of BtS.
    Another reason any copy of BtS should be burned and Golden needs to be fired.

  16. #16
    I am Murloc! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Another reason any copy of BtS should be burned and Golden needs to be fired.
    I don't know, I found it refreshing to 1) get a look into the daily lives of ordinary Forsaken, and 2) finding out they're not all cultists worshipping Sylvanas, but people of their own minds. The philosophy of just dying out is silly, though admittedly a Forsaken's perspective on life would be unique, as their existence is very different to living beings.

    I think the worse offence of BtS was that it was 70% about Anduin.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  17. #17
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    I don't know, I found it refreshing to 1) get a look into the daily lives of ordinary Forsaken, and 2) finding out they're not all cultists worshipping Sylvanas, but people of their own minds. The philosophy of just dying out is silly, though admittedly a Forsaken's perspective on life would be unique, as their existence is very different to living beings.
    I think it also scans well because the majority of the populace of Lordaeron were adherents of the Light in life, that being the primary system of belief in Lordaeron proper before its fall in the Third War. Many Forsaken probably view their lot as an unnatural curse that seemingly can't be fixed - that they'd pine for a natural cessation of the condition makes a lot of sense for many of them. Sylvanas herself once espoused similar views (e.g. "what joy is there in this curse"), but that changed after her peculiar resurrection atop Icecrown Citadel. Some Forsaken are also driven by darker emotions even now, with a few even reveling in their new form in some ways. It never really made sense to me for the Forsaken as a whole to just accept their condition and blindly worship Sylvanas forever - they were always a people with a goal, so to speak, and upon the death of the Lich King and the heel-realization that the curse of undeath is a more or less permanent one, I can see many of them falling into existential despair.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  18. #18
    The only reason the Forsaken would have for wanting to continue as a "race" is out of pure spite. They're unnatural monsters and they know it. If Blizzard hadn't made them a playable race I'm sure 90% would have offed themselves by now or gotten killed by various heroes over the years.
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