425 non-socketed benthic gear with bonuses can be better than 455 gear

[Raelbo]

Dude, what sympathy are you even talking about.

Mythic gear is still better than any other gear in:
Mythic +
PvP
Any other raid outside Eternal Palace

Hence why I have zero sympathy.

The ONE and ONLY problem of Benthic is that "Mythic raiders already have Bis gear since day 1...and will not see progression in items INSIDE ETERNAL PALACE and EP ONLY"

If you read my earlier deconstruction of the phenomenon, and the conditions necessary for it to happen, it's actually pretty clear that it isn't even a real problem. Benthic gear substitution only works if kept to a few key pieces. Mythic raiders will still see massive progression in items from EP gear even inside EP.

To illustrate why: The benthic effects that result in them being powerful are +% to stat items (eg +2% to crit damage from boots). So you still want all that crit from your other 15 slots so that the +2% actually means something. By themselves, replacing the boots is a worthwhile upgrade. You lose the extra stats from the 20 (~30%) ilevels on one item which represents only 3% of your dps, but the +2% crit damage is worth a bit more than that. But if you start replacing all you other gear pieces with benthic gear, suddenly your crit and attack power will go down substantially, and the effect of that +2% will decrease as well.

[beeftotem]

One of the biggest problems with wow is that Gear progression trumping all other pursuits has lead to the stagnation of the game. By creating alternative paths of progression it frees up Blizzard to create other rewards. As long as Blizzard sticks with ONLY gear progression as the primary motivation of the game, it forces them into a linear path that eventually leads only to Mythic raiding, which has been shown that only an extremely small percentage of the playerbase engages with.

By breaking away from that linear reward path, it lets Blizzard expand the focus of the game to other meaningful pursuits. We've seen that to some extent with the M+ system. Hopefully in future patches and expansions we see it in other areas of the game as well. Additionally, we see the reward system move more towards expanding into other areas of the game with the essence system.

This is a VERY good move by blizzard, and I think a lot of people are only mad about it because they haven't fully thought it through.

Funny though. Stagnation was never an issue, for me at least, until gear progression stopped existing.

And to make up for the loss of gear progression you have to come up with fun and interesting things to do, and personally I don't feel blizzard has done that.

I did not raid in bfa when I was subbed because there was no incentive for me to do so, and everytime I did any kind of group content I got reminded why gear progression and difficulty NEED to exist.

I've thought it through and because of that I have not been subbed since March. I know where this is going to go and personally I don't think it will work.

[MoanaLisa]

I'm not sure where you stand on it Moana...

If I were to nitpick Ion's statement further, I'd probably say that Blizzard vastly overstates the value of bragging rights.

I agree that "bragging rights" are way overstated. That said, personal pride, the pride of your team, is important. Gear is a tool and a means to an end. It's not the end. Those that do not see that overcoming a challenge is enough of an incentive logically aren't that interested in overcoming that challenge. It has to mean something for it to be personally important.

Where I stand these days apart from what I just wrote is that another thing that's way overstated is player adulation for someone wearing good gear. We are, most of us, much older. We know how these things work. I don't admire the best players in any sport that I don't follow and I don't follow raiding as a competitive sport. I'm not criticizing those who do but my guess would be that most of that admiration for good raiding is now lodged in the world 1st race and not in the game at all.

Raiding is great given the right social situation. Everyone should give it a try at whatever skill level is best for them. It really is the best content in the game as a rule. But all of this ego BS needs to go.

I read this all the time about how seeing someone in really cool gear is an incentive to start raiding and it's bullshit in 2019 for most people. The question of whether or not you want to raid is influenced by a lot of things but it's difficult for me to believe it has much of anything to do with that. I simply do not believe that there are crowds of youngsters, even less adults, avidly waiting around in faction capitols hoping to get a glimpse of a top 50 raider in all of his/her finery. I get it that certain people need to believe that as their personal incentive to raid but it's mostly BS.

Players enjoy progression and progression unfortunately is nearly exclusively to be found in whatever clothes you're wearing on any given day. Resentment that lesser skilled players are getting decent gear is nearly on the surface another remnant of "You're not deserving". We can do without that attitude too.

[arkanon]

Hence why I have zero sympathy.



If you read my earlier deconstruction of the phenomenon, and the conditions necessary for it to happen, it's actually pretty clear that it isn't even a real problem. Benthic gear substitution only works if kept to a few key pieces. Mythic raiders will still see massive progression in items from EP gear even inside EP.

To illustrate why: The benthic effects that result in them being powerful are +% to stat items (eg +2% to crit damage from boots). So you still want all that crit from your other 15 slots so that the +2% actually means something. By themselves, replacing the boots is a worthwhile upgrade. You lose the extra stats from the 20 (~30%) ilevels on one item which represents only 3% of your dps, but the +2% crit damage is worth a bit more than that. But if you start replacing all you other gear pieces with benthic gear, suddenly your crit and attack power will go down substantially, and the effect of that +2% will decrease as well.

And what about normal and heroic?

[rohoz]

He also stated wow would never have a cash shop because it was to good for it.. as garrosh says " times change".

- - - Updated - - -



Why should I accept it in terms of ap?

I was able to hit world 7th in SoO in mop playing 16 hours a week raiding with roughly a hour or so to aoe grind coins / play the ah.

Why should I embrace this new system that is clearly just giving you back the power you used to have on hitting level cap but now walls it off with a grind?

We are straying off topic though. On titanforging and warforging we won't agree I see them as what they are pointless gambling to hook low skilled players into subbing longer.

you got a quote on hazzikostas saying that?

wow's shop is the most bare-bones ingame shop out of prob every franchise I've ever seen, and you still can't buy player power.

[SirCowdog]

In the end, there is simply no practical way for Blizzard to stop a player from spending more time in the game to gain an advantage. So they changed their philosophy. Instead of trying to constrain players they started designing systems that would allow players to spend as much time as they wanted to, without having to resort to ridiculous work arounds. This is why AP and TF/WF are such great systems - because they give Blizzard some measure of control over how players spend their time in the game.

Diminishing returns on AP gains is a pretty good start. But at the same time has the drawback of creating an even larger emphasis on sinking even MORE time into getting that final 5%.

One of the things Blizzard could do to curb the advantage of raw time-sinks in order to gain an advantage would be to move further away from gear and stats trumping all other considerations when it comes to performance. Even in super-cutting-edge groups like Method, gear determines peak performance. Which is how things like split raids became prevalent in recent times.

What exact form would that take? I'm not entirely certain. It seems pretty clear that gear being the top contributer to performance is an issue. But how they actually overcome that in an engine as old as WoW is using....I'm not so sure. But you can see the issue illustrated with the contrast between it and something like Dark Souls games, where highly skillful players can beat the game using only the starting equipment, or no equipment at all, based purely on being good at the game in a personal sense.

I think there's a happy medium in there somewhere. Obviously gear has always been a core part of WoW's progression, and I don't think that removing it entirely from the equation is a good solution. But something clearly needs to be change in order for WoW to move away from the problems that over-emphasis on gear creates.

[rohoz]

And what about normal and heroic?

easy and normal aren't difficulties worth the mention.

[SirCowdog]

This is a Eternal Palace lack of progression in items problem. And IMO is not a big deal.

That's an interesting point, but I disagree that it's not a big deal. Raiding is a very core part of the game, and for it to have no real progression systems in place is a deep flaw.

This goes back to what I just said to Raelbo about the game having too large of an emphasis on linear gear progression. In the case of the Eternal Palace, benthic gear is clearly taking a large part of the motivation to progress out of raiding: Acquisition of gear.

What that means is that if Benthic gear(or systems like it) are going to be a thing from now on, then raiding needs some other form of meaningful reward progression to take the place of gear acquisition. Essences are one solution, cosmetics or titles are another. But none of those(except maybe essences) really carry any actual impact on the way a character plays in the same manner that gear does.

This is definitely something that we as players need to keep providing feedback on, and something I think Blizzard REALLY needs to put in some time brainstorming and coming up with solutions.

[rohoz]

Diminishing returns on AP gains is a pretty good start. But at the same time has the drawback of creating an even larger emphasis on sinking even MORE time into getting that final 5%.

One of the things Blizzard could do to curb the advantage of raw time-sinks in order to gain an advantage would be to move further away from gear and stats trumping all other considerations when it comes to performance. Even in super-cutting-edge groups like Method, gear determines peak performance. Which is how things like split raids became prevalent in recent times.

What exact form would that take? I'm not entirely certain. It seems pretty clear that gear being the top contributer to performance is an issue. But how they actually overcome that in an engine as old as WoW is using....I'm not so sure. But you can see the issue illustrated with the contrast between it and something like Dark Souls games, where highly skillful players can beat the game using only the starting equipment, or no equipment at all, based purely on being good at the game in a personal sense.

I think there's a happy medium in there somewhere. Obviously gear has always been a core part of WoW's progression, and I don't think that removing it entirely from the equation is a good solution. But something clearly needs to be change in order for WoW to move away from the problems that over-emphasis on gear creates.

splits have been a thing since raids stopped dropping loot for specs not present. So SoO?
and when there weren't splits, they just did 3-4 normal runs a week. Blood legion, for example, had 3 normal/heroic ICC groups every weekend to gear alts/new raiders/pug community members.

They weren't as laser focused as splits are now, but several clears a week def isn't a new thing.

[Barzotti]

In the end, there is simply no practical way for Blizzard to stop a player from spending more time in the game to gain an advantage. So they changed their philosophy. Instead of trying to constrain players they started designing systems that would allow players to spend as much time as they wanted to, without having to resort to ridiculous work arounds. This is why AP and TF/WF are such great systems - because they give Blizzard some measure of control over how players spend their time in the game.

Pretty much. To quote Dossou (Limit raider): "There is absolutely nothing outside of actual impossible tasks that people who play this video game will not do. Blizzard always underestimates the extreme autism of the player base"

[SirCowdog]

splits have been a thing since raids stopped dropping loot for specs not present. So SoO?
and when there weren't splits, they just did 3-4 normal runs a week. Blood legion, for example, had 3 normal/heroic ICC groups every weekend to gear alts/new raiders/pug community members.

They weren't as laser focused as splits are now, but several clears a week def isn't a new thing.

Yes, which only reinforces my point: The pursuit of gear - largely because it's the greatest determining factor for performance - is the reason why players are engaging in such time-intensive methods.

So either Blizzard needs to completely overhaul the way in which gear is acquired, or they need to change the impact that gear has on performance. They've already tried overhauling gear and it's acquirement several times now: Removing set bonuses, the switch to personal loot instead of master loot, tokens, etc. None of it seems to address the core issue.

What the leaves, then, is changing how much effect gear has on the raw output of DPS/Healing/tanking, and shift to a larger focus on fight mechanics, more complex class mechanics, or something else entirely. As long as gear is such a dominant factor, players can and will continue to do everything in their power to work the system for it.

And that's, IMO, harmful to the game. You see it in aspects other than raiding. Ridiculous iLVL requirements for M+ runs, rampant elitism based on nothing more than iLVL, etc.

It's definitely an issue that's been around for a long time, too. And just because "that's how it's always been" doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking at or talking about a better system.

[rohoz]

Yes, which only reinforces my point: The pursuit of gear - largely because it's the greatest determining factor for performance - is the reason why players are engaging in such time-intensive methods.

So either Blizzard needs to completely overhaul the way in which gear is acquired, or they need to change the impact that gear has on performance. They've already tried overhauling gear and it's acquirement several times now: Removing set bonuses, the switch to personal loot instead of master loot, tokens, etc. None of it seems to address the core issue.

What the leaves, then, is changing how much effect gear has on the raw output of DPS/Healing/tanking, and shift to a larger focus on fight mechanics, more complex class mechanics, or something else entirely. As long as gear is such a dominant factor, players can and will continue to do everything in their power to work the system for it.

And that's, IMO, harmful to the game. You see it in aspects other than raiding. Ridiculous iLVL requirements for M+ runs, rampant elitism based on nothing more than iLVL, etc.

It's definitely an issue that's been around for a long time, too. And just because "that's how it's always been" doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking at or talking about a better system.

Or, shitty kids need to understand that not everything is for them.

[beeftotem]

easy and normal aren't difficulties worth the mention.

They used to be though, and that is part of the issue. People think that mythic was a difficulty added for the methods of wow, when in fact it was added to try and move the lfr heroes into normal. Mythic became the new heroic and normal became what used to be lfr in cata and mop. Lfr now barely has the difficulty of a heroic dungeon.

[rohoz]

They used to be though, and that is part of the issue. People think that mythic was a difficulty added for the methods of wow, when in fact it was added to try and move the lfr heroes into normal. Mythic became the new heroic and normal became what used to be lfr in cata and mop. Lfr now barely has the difficulty of a heroic dungeon.

They weren't ever.
When heroic was end/flagship difficulty, normal wasn't really taken seriously by anyone.

LFR has always been the difficulty of a heroic dungeon save durumu and lei shen. And that's solely because the lfr playerbase is pepega

[SirCowdog]

Or, shitty kids need to understand that not everything is for them.

Blaming the players is not a real great argument, nor does it help improve the game. :/

[rrayy]

I don't see the issue. You've put down quite a bit of time getting that item.
Heck, you could get a TF item from HC without more than 10 min of hardly any effort as the bosses are silly easy.

My guess is that the first few bosses in mythic will be a cake walk as well. With the benthic gear you actually have to put in at least some effort. Why is this a problem?

Because some mythic raiders cannot stand filthy casuals even getting one piece that equals anything they can get.

It's called "Special Snowflake" Syndrome.

[Barzotti]

They used to be though, and that is part of the issue. People think that mythic was a difficulty added for the methods of wow, when in fact it was added to try and move the lfr heroes into normal. Mythic became the new heroic and normal became what used to be lfr in cata and mop. Lfr now barely has the difficulty of a heroic dungeon.

Normal has become what Flex was during MoP. Blizzard didn't add difficulties since the LFR introduction, only changed the names and the number of people (from 10/25 to 20 in the highest level).

[arkanon]

Normal has become what Flex was during MoP. Blizzard didn't add difficulties since the LFR introduction, only changed the names and the number of people (from 10/25 to 20 in the highest level).

This is wrong. LFR was added in 4.3.0. Flex wasnt added until 5.4, quite some time later, not even the same expac.

[beeftotem]

They weren't ever.
When heroic was end/flagship difficulty, normal wasn't really taken seriously by anyone.

LFR has always been the difficulty of a heroic dungeon save durumu and lei shen. And that's solely because the lfr playerbase is pepega

Unless you where not a heroic raider, which was the vast majority of the raiding player base. Normal was hard enough back then that you did progress through it and it could take some time to do so, that's not the case today, because heroic is the new normal.

If you are still trying to clear normal on week three with your guild, Idk what to say.

[rohoz]

Unless you where not a heroic raider, which was the vast majority of the raiding player base. Normal was hard enough back then that you did progress through it and it could take some time to do so, that's not the case today, because heroic is the new normal.

If you are still trying to clear normal on week three with your guild, Idk what to say.

I dunno, outside of (gated) ICC, every raid since wotlk has been a week 1 clear affair. I've no idea what "back then" was to you bc I def killed every boss back then week 1/2. Esp when heroic became a thing, week 1/2 normal clears were what almost every guild I've been in has done.