class updates and balances.

[shoegazing]

Yea I should have put a small disclaimer to indicate that Shoegazing would completely disagree with me on this SUb part, my apologies :P

Of course I would disagree with you.

Anyone who has played a Subtlety Rogue for years and is experienced in PvP hates the new design direction. The spec was a timeless PvP masterpiece and they fucking ruined it. If you support it, you're a traitor to the class. PvE Rogues already had 2 great options, you aren't justified in taking our spec from us.

I'm calling on you to stand with PvP Rogues instead of celebrating brainless purple particle effects and calling it "uniqueness" when the gameplay is more dumbed down, pruned, and homogenized than ever before.

[ymirsson]

Of course I would disagree with you.

Anyone who has played a Subtlety Rogue for years and is experienced in PvP hates the new design direction. The spec was a timeless PvP masterpiece and they fucking ruined it. If you support it, you're a traitor to the class. PvE Rogues already had 2 great options, you aren't justified in taking our spec from us.

I'm calling on you to stand with PvP Rogues instead of celebrating brainless purple particle effects and calling it "uniqueness" when the gameplay is more dumbed down, pruned, and homogenized than ever before.

Hyperbole never ever helped any cause.
I am aware of my own unintended irony.

[Kaver]

Rogue is literally always top tier, if it's not i'll note it down now because thats probably a fucking first.

Outlaw and Assassination are both GREAT in performance! No doubt. However, the Rogue specs got so many completely dead and unusable talents. It's not fun to always use the same talents over and over. The tier 100 row for both Assassination and Outlaw are trash. The only talent change that has been somewhat changed since the launch of BFA is that Outlaw has started to use Deeper Stratagem instead of Vigor. Otherwise we have use the exactly same talent build for all content since the start of BFA.

[ymirsson]

Outlaw and Assassination are both GREAT in performance! No doubt. However, the Rogue specs got so many completely dead and unusable talents. It's not fun to always use the same talents over and over. The tier 100 row for both Assassination and Outlaw are trash. The only talent change that has been somewhat changed since the launch of BFA is that Outlaw has started to use Deeper Stratagem instead of Vigor. Otherwise we have use the exactly same talent build for all content since the start of BFA.

But the OP was about performance, not diversity. And as everyone agrees, the performance of rogues is nothing to complain about. Unless you are thieves can't, who literally can't even post one coherent post in 6 years, but still manages to write about things which are not a problem.

[Kaver]

But the OP was about performance, not diversity. And as everyone agrees, the performance of rogues is nothing to complain about. Unless you are thieves can't, who literally can't even post one coherent post in 6 years, but still manages to write about things which are not a problem.

Seems like he is mainly referring to Sub. Be he is probably not the best player in the world.

[shoegazing]

Hyperbole never ever helped any cause.
I am aware of my own unintended irony.

What specifically did you feel was hyperbolic? "If you support it, you're a traitor to the class" was probably a bit much but it is how I genuinely feel when I see PvE Rogues supporting the new design direction for Subtlety. 2/3 Rogue specs were already theirs. They don't need to have 3/3 leaving us with 0/3. Sure, Assassination is very strong in PvP right now but it isn't interesting to play by any measure. None of the specs offers the fun, challenging, unique, and cool gameplay that Subtlety once offered.

[Varolyn]

What specifically did you feel was hyperbolic? "If you support it, you're a traitor to the class" was probably a bit much but it is how I genuinely feel when I see PvE Rogues supporting the new design direction for Subtlety. 2/3 Rogue specs were already theirs. They don't need to have 3/3 leaving us with 0/3. Sure, Assassination is very strong in PvP right now but it isn't interesting to play by any measure. None of the specs offers the fun, challenging, unique, and cool gameplay that Subtlety once offered.

What about the raiders who don’t like the low APM of Assassin, or the SS spam of Outlaw? What about the raiders who like the theme of subtlety. While blizz could have gone about it in a different way, I don’t think it’s really good game design to lock specs to pvp/pve.

[ymirsson]

What specifically did you feel was hyperbolic?

All of it.

[shoegazing]

What about the raiders who don’t like the low APM of Assassin, or the SS spam of Outlaw? What about the raiders who like the theme of subtlety. While blizz could have gone about it in a different way, I don’t think it’s really good game design to lock specs to pvp/pve.

What about the PvPers like me who have loved and mained Subtlety since 2005? Why should we have lost out spec? What spec are we supposed to play now? This is a pure dps class. It has 3 specs that are agility based, leather wearing, pure melee dps specs. What makes it justified for PvP Subtlety Rogue to lose the spec that has always been ours? Why is it that with 3 pure melee, leather wearing, agility based dps specs, we can't have one that offers the amazing and iconic gameplay that Subtlety Rogue used to offer?

You can try to frame this as an opinion but if the goal is to support diversity of playstyles then my view is much more logical.

[Varolyn]

What about the PvPers like me who have loved and mained Subtlety since 2005? Why should we have lost out spec? What spec are we supposed to play now? This is a pure dps class. It has 3 specs that are agility based, leather wearing, pure melee dps specs. What makes it justified for PvP Subtlety Rogue to lose the spec that has always been ours? Why is it that with 3 pure melee, leather wearing, agility based dps specs, we can't have one that offers the amazing and iconic gameplay that Subtlety Rogue used to offer?

You can try to frame this as an opinion but if the goal is to support diversity of playstyles then my view is much more logical.

I mean, sub can still have that in pvp while still having being viable for pve. WoD sub pretty much nailed on that end. Late cata sub too with the daggers.

[shoegazing]

Great, so you agree that the Legion redesign was not only unnecessary but also destructive. The previous design was not only perfect for PvP but also considered great in PvE as well.

[Naiattavain]

i don't bother reading posts from ymirsson. sub was fun during wod there was no need to destroy the spec for legions design. has the thought occurred to you guys that blizzard doesn't know what to do anymore? people attack professional surfers and discredit them for their skill in surfing waves. this is what is going on because playing rogue was a lot like surfing.

[Coldkil]

I don't think this is going very far - as many others can see. Closing.