Why are Rets so unwanted in M+?

[Demsi]

It might be my less than stellar Raider.io score (i only do m+ once a week), but it seems that ret is not that much wanted in groups, this is not only my experience but a lot of others too (i know it's only anecdotal so do take it as it is).

Am i just being delusional or am i right? if so why?

[Einsz]

Everything thats not rogue is unwanted currently its not just rets but pretty much a case for most classes.

[cparle87]

Everything thats not rogue is unwanted currently its not just rets but pretty much a case for most classes.

Nails it on the head. Melee have a lot of disadvantages, but rogues have enough nigh mandatory utility to counteract that.

[Biomega]

Getting into M+ PUGs as a DPS is always difficult.

Ret isn't bad per se, it's just that it's not better than many alternatives - Rogue, Havoc, Windwalker are all better, and given that there's usually an abundance of applicants in the Group Finder they just take the better specs. Can't really blame them either, I mean why WOULD you take the worse spec if you can take a better one? Even if the difference is small, if you do have the choice why would you not go with the best.

Obviously the whole "bring the player not the class" thing doesn't apply here because they have no way of evaluating the player beyond r.io score and ilvl, both of which are superficial measures of skill at best. Assuming both of these are roughly equal, spec makes the decider.

As always in these cases, the recommendation is an easy fix: make your own groups, or run with people you know.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I really don’t get the elitist min/max approach peaople have to mythic dungeons. I’m 406 ilvl DH and always top my groups, I can spend an hour looking for a +6 or higher dungeon as DPS even if I apply to grps with 2+ dps slots open. If I spec tank (which I hate) then I get group invite for in the first or second group I apply to...

I Understand that stealth skipping is good but you can use pots and for lower m+ it isn’t even needed. It somehow doesn’t matter that you know what to do or that you are prepared... nah, everything is min/max for casual content...

[ZazuuPriest]

its the 90% of Ret Paladins that dont respec out of selfless healer and into word of glory that kill it for the 2% that are worth a shit. The other 8% do respec but are unwilling to sacrifice 1-2k dps to heal the group with word of glory when they should. In anything 12 and under group come doesnt matter

[durenas]

its the 90% of Ret Paladins that dont respec out of selfless healer and into word of glory that kill it for the 2% that are worth a shit. The other 8% do respec but are unwilling to sacrifice 1-2k dps to heal the group with word of glory when they should. In anything 12 and under group come doesnt matter

word of glory is awful healing, and if you're relying on that to keep you alive, then tell your healer to not suck.

edit: I don't like to delete things I've said on the internet because it keeps me honest. But before you respond in anger, please read the other things I've said in the thread below. It's not hard. This thread is literally only 2 pages long as of this edit. So just scroll down. Thanks.

[siskokid21]

It might be my less than stellar Raider.io score (i only do m+ once a week), but it seems that ret is not that much wanted in groups, this is not only my experience but a lot of others too (i know it's only anecdotal so do take it as it is).

Am i just being delusional or am i right? if so why?

Melee is in a weird/bad spot atm for M+, basically if you aren't a rogue, WW, or DH you won't get invited to a decent pug group. Ranged has more flexibility, however no group will ever take more than 1, whereas you usually bring 2 melee always. (for melee kick meta)

Healers are in a pretty similiar spot, was 2.6k raider.io last season on my hpal and would get declined from +17s/18s for my weekly just because i wasn't a resto druid. (i had +21s in time)

Best advice i can give is to stop pugging if you aren't willing to reroll meta classes, because pugs don't owe you anything and won't give you a chance, however guildies and friends generally will.

[BeepBoo]

word of glory is awful healing, and if you're relying on that to keep you alive, then tell your healer to not suck.

spoken like someone who has no idea what they're talking about.
@Demsi: The reason is melee in general is a liability. Rogues get a pass for great dps and utility that far exceeds what ret can bring. You want an easier time pugging as DPS? Push your own key, or play ranged.

[Jester Joe]

word of glory is awful healing, and if you're relying on that to keep you alive, then tell your healer to not suck.

Jesus no.

Word of Glory is easily one of the best saves for weeks that there's spike damage that needs quick recovery.

Mismanaged explosives, bursting, grevious, all good times to have a ret with WoG.

Is it mandatory, no, but not every healer can be a druid for M+.

[rulk]

word of glory is awful healing, and if you're relying on that to keep you alive, then tell your healer to not suck.

Literally one of the dumbest things I've ever read on these forums.

I can't even count the amount of times I've saved a wipe due to 1-2 WoG casts.

As for ret not getting invites, it's been covered above. Find a group to run with or start your own keys.

We were great for reaping in S2 though

[ZazuuPriest]

word of glory is awful healing, and if you're relying on that to keep you alive, then tell your healer to not suck.

Its rets with this mentality that i kick immediately if they are specced into selfless healer. You clearly have no idea what youre talking about.

[klaps_05]

Rogues windwalkers and Havoc are much more represented, so every time you queue there are probably one of those also queued for each ret. Also ret simply lacks utility compared to rogue/ww/havoc.

[Druitz]

word of glory is awful healing, and if you're relying on that to keep you alive, then tell your healer to not suck.

Actually most of healing in m+ is because of people failing even simple mechanics people were doing around 20k hps at m+24-25 and i was usually doing 25k+hps at m+17

Do not blame healer only pls.


About rets. Utility is bad, blessings are not good enough. Ret only brings damage.

[Ealyssa]

word of glory is awful healing, and if you're relying on that to keep you alive, then tell your healer to not suck.

Lets play « spot the garbage ret »

[durenas]

Lets play « spot the garbage ret »

Thank God I'm Prot then. LOL.

I spoke off the cuff without really thinking about it, about an ability I barely use in a spec I know less about than I probably should. Teach me to keep my big mouth shut.

[xblubbx]

Looking at the fact that rogues covered between 23.3% and 30% of DPS spots in the higher keys in Season 3 (https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99, https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99) with DHs following at around 15% tells blatantly that Blizzard WRECKED m+ DPS class balance. It's completely broken. But what's annoying is.. it's been completely broken since the BEGINNING of BfA. Beguiling is just a result and a pity attempt to make ranges more competitive.

EDIT: To be fair, ret wasn't a pick in Legion either, but holy was OP and the go to healing class/spec. Nowadays you got a competitive tank spec at least.

[Biomega]

Just to clarify a very common misconception: what's most often the case is NOT that people AVOID taking certain specs to M+, but rather that there is such an overabundance of DPS applicants to your average M+ run that they can easily PREFER certain specs simply because they're there.

Think of it like this. Say you like sweets. Chocolate is your favorite, but you like others, too, if there's no chocolate to be had. If someone gives you a plate of sweets and you get to pick one, you'll pick chocolate - because you like it best. What that does NOT mean, however, is that you HATE taffy, gummies, etc. - you just don't like them as much as you like chocolate, and they offered you chocolate so why would you NOT take it? Even if you only like chocolate A LITTLE more, why would you voluntarily pick something you liked less (even just a little less) if you didn't have to?

That's how it is in M+ PUGs a lot of the time.

Rets and other DPS are by no means terrible or unplayable in M+. They're not HUGELY worse than the 3 leather bois. But they're worse, in most relevant aspects. And so even if it's just by a little, why would you voluntarily pick the worse spec if you didn't have to?

Note, of course, that this only holds true for sight-unseen, random PUGs that rely on two primary factors: raider.io score and ilvl. If you actually know people or have other information, that changes things. And, similarly, it's also contingent on the actual overall selection. Sometimes no other DPS happens to queue up (or not fast enough), or the other DPS are significantly worse in some of the metrics - people would, for example, be likely to take a 430 Ret over a 410 Windwalker, or a 2,000 r.io Ret over a 1,200 Havoc DH (Rogues are a little special since Shroud and/or lock-picking can be such a massive factor it can make up for severe deficits in other areas). Of course, this is also a problem in and of itself - making some specs jump through extra hoops is not a good feeling.

Always keep in mind, though, that the people running the invites don't know you, and that they value their time. They (ideally) go for the highest-EV decision based on the data they have. They don't know you're amazing at playing your class; or that the Rogue they just invited has no idea how to deal serious damage. But you can't fault them for that. They made the choice they thought would be the best for them, given the available information. You have more information, and sometimes we tend to look at things as though other people knew what we know - even when they don't.

[Voidwielder]

word of glory is awful healing, and if you're relying on that to keep you alive, then tell your healer to not suck.

Try running high Bursting or Grevious+Fort week as a healer with a Ret with WoG and a Ret without one.
Then check meters at the end.

[Sliske]

Because at the very high end, they're not the best option. This is streamed every day for months and eventually it trickles down - tactics at 20 start becoming mandatory in the eyes of group leaders at 10. For instance, tanks last season. It was pretty much 'warrior or gtfo' , yet every other tank with the exception of bear did great damage and even if they didn't, its a fucking 10.