Why are Rets so unwanted in M+?

[Xorzor]

It's not just Ret paladins. As an elemental shaman, I'm scarcely wanted too.

Unless your ilvl is 100 times higher than the "appropriate" level, no one wants you.

King Mechagon can also go to hotfix-hell and get a tune-down.

[MisterBigglez]

Most classes have to deal with this, even though they're more than capable of doing perfectly fine. Whats funny is that the majority of those who play the strong classes are often terrible at them, but they get invited because they picked the FOTY. As others have said, you're better off just making your own group or playing with guildies to get keys done.

[Ashina]

Done plenty of keys with Ret in the group. Stop looking at the top comps and thinking you only need exactly that in order to just time a key.

Easily the biggest problem with M+ right now.

[unbound]

It might be my less than stellar Raider.io score (i only do m+ once a week), but it seems that ret is not that much wanted in groups, this is not only my experience but a lot of others too (i know it's only anecdotal so do take it as it is).

Am i just being delusional or am i right? if so why?

TBH, M+ has always been this way about several classes. It will also depend on the affixes for the week as to what is desired or not.

The primary problem is that M+ is geared towards speed, and people aren't really interested in doing the dungeon; they want to get it done super fast. This is a really, really bad concept for an RPG game, so the toxicity surrounding it is actually expected by anyone really thinking about it (which clearly doesn't include Blizz themselves).

This is part of the reason the game subs are extremely low. It has almost nothing to do with "it's old" and everything to do with Blizz changing the game to try to be something it isn't rather than expanding upon its historical strengths.

The real fix is for people to stop playing the game altogether and start recognizing that alternatives such as ESO and FFXIV are not just equivalent but, in many regards, superior to WoW at this point. This will put the fear of competition back into Blizz who will either sink or swim...either improve their products rather than just improving PR, or make way for better companies that actually care about putting out superior products.

[Ange]

The sad truth is, if you build non-meta groups you end up with better players and a more enjoyable run. This will not stop casual m+ pusher from sticking to META ONLY, meanwhile burning out because of the same toxic mediocre FOTM class players in their groups.

Every time your perfectly fine (2k r.io / 430+) non-FOTM class gets declined in m+, don't even waste a second to be upset, since those group leader will not be playing this game in a few weeks anyways.

This is still an MMO, stay far away from casual low-end and high-end players, they are not worth your time anyways.

[Tumile]

It might be my less than stellar Raider.io score (i only do m+ once a week), but it seems that ret is not that much wanted in groups, this is not only my experience but a lot of others too (i know it's only anecdotal so do take it as it is).

Am i just being delusional or am i right? if so why?

Rets have performed "well" in M+ since it was introduced in Legion. the utility they bring is fairly huge for a PuG grp that isnt in the top 1%. When you get to the top most of ret's utility is nice for making up for mistakes and miss plays, but mistakes aren't allowed at the top, making Ret utility ultimately irrelevant for the top end M+ players.

For any key that is 1-2 levels below the highest keys Rets are actually amasing and incredibly underrated. which is just the sheeple mentality, where random lowbobs at 1k M+ score think that Raider IO score is relevant to them what so ever. the only use M+ score has is for the top players when pugging, and all those insane requirements they put on their keys just goes to show how delusional and terrible they are at the game, they copy something they've seen without understanding it. Rets are awesome for M+ farming.

Then theres general BIAS against certain classes, I assume that random pug rets are bad players, simply because the class has attracted new players since the launch of the game. same goes for DK's and DH's, a lot of people have the same Bias that I have, which may impact you trying to find a grp as a ret.

TL;DR: Rets are absolutely fine for M+ as long as you aren't pushing keys in the top 1%

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TBH, M+ has always been this way about several classes. It will also depend on the affixes for the week as to what is desired or not.

The primary problem is that M+ is geared towards speed, and people aren't really interested in doing the dungeon; they want to get it done super fast. This is a really, really bad concept for an RPG game, so the toxicity surrounding it is actually expected by anyone really thinking about it (which clearly doesn't include Blizz themselves).

This is part of the reason the game subs are extremely low. It has almost nothing to do with "it's old" and everything to do with Blizz changing the game to try to be something it isn't rather than expanding upon its historical strengths.

The real fix is for people to stop playing the game altogether and start recognizing that alternatives such as ESO and FFXIV are not just equivalent but, in many regards, superior to WoW at this point. This will put the fear of competition back into Blizz who will either sink or swim...either improve their products rather than just improving PR, or make way for better companies that actually care about putting out superior products.

what a load of bull.

[xblubbx]

Rets and other DPS are by no means terrible or unplayable in M+. They're not HUGELY worse than the 3 leather bois. But they're worse, in most relevant aspects. And so even if it's just by a little, why would you voluntarily pick the worse spec if you didn't have to?

Can we please just make this sticky and close this thread.

[Teaon]

word of glory is awful healing, and if you're relying on that to keep you alive, then tell your healer to not suck.

u wot? the only reason i would bring a ret in my group is either a friend, someone i know, or i expect him to use word of glory, esp in certain affixes like bursting, grievous or explosive.

[Marrilaife]

Basically the only thing that changed since 8.0 until now in the "m+ pug meta" is the big replacement of blood dk with prot warr in 8.1, since then same shit. Every group wants a rogue (or 2), a dh or maybe a ww if they watched too much mdi (still dhs are very popular in keys of all ranges), and maybe 1 ranged usually mage / boomkin for specific utility. They can't be as picky with tanks and healers but if they have an option, prot warr / resto druid it is.

Also expect to need +500 more r.io score than you realistically need to be even invited as a non-rogue dps.

[kebabmasterxd]

Because blizzard pruned the hell out of retribution.

honestly, i never ever take ret's into groups because blizzard have destroyed that spec, it offers nothing, kinda like warriors really.

mind you, for 1-10 keys it's ok to take them, but if you are into pushing very high keys i avoid them.

[trapmaster]

Ret pally used to be great till BFA "gutted" most classes but kept the effective classes such monk, dh, warrior, and rogue for bis meanwhile ret doesn't get to be superior anymore. I don't mind them being around in 1+ to 12+ keys but when it comes to really higher keys, i and my guild tends try to avoid them all cost.

[Sithalos]

Because nobody played Ret in the MDI, and if your spec wasn't played there, people think it won't work for their little +10 run.

[gd8]

It's not just Ret paladins. As an elemental shaman, I'm scarcely wanted too.

Unless your ilvl is 100 times higher than the "appropriate" level, no one wants you.

King Mechagon can also go to hotfix-hell and get a tune-down.

elemental is extremely viable in m+ and one of the highest dps currently both in aoe and single target

[Waldor666]

because we don't need Wake of Ashes to stun reaping anymore

[Vintersol]

elemental is extremely viable in m+ and one of the highest dps currently both in aoe and single target

BUT DEY ARENT ROUGES OR DEMENHANTERS! ~ © average joe (who barely beats a +10)

[spalernTJ]

I hope they don't nerf rogues, or remove their unique utility. Please Blizzard, see what rogues have become, and start giving other classes unique, class / spec specific utility that'll make them shine too. Retri paladins could avenge their fallen allies, if they're the last member left, they get an insane buff, possibly enabling them to clean up an almost dead group of enemies so they can ress, preventing a complete wipe. More emphasis on CC from mages, tune marksmanship AoE to deal insane cleave on low targets, since their large group aoe sucks etc.

[Bunchie]

word of glory is awful healing, and if you're relying on that to keep you alive, then tell your healer to not suck.

You wanna know how I can tell you've never used the ability? When you don't realise that popping that off CD is a huge help for healers. Healing 3 people for a potentially 120+k crit heal, instantly, is a crowd saver. If you don't help your group as an assist then that's a majority of your utility gone.

Might as well play a warr with your mindset.

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I hope they don't nerf rogues, or remove their unique utility. Please Blizzard, see what rogues have become, and start giving other classes unique, class / spec specific utility that'll make them shine too. Retri paladins could avenge their fallen allies, if they're the last member left, they get an insane buff, possibly enabling them to clean up an almost dead group of enemies so they can ress, preventing a complete wipe. More emphasis on CC from mages, tune marksmanship AoE to deal insane cleave on low targets, since their large group aoe sucks etc.

You must have not played rogue at the start of legion. Assasin got nurfed by 60% before they stopped, just within the first half year of the expansion. They will say that rogues have too much utility and too much burst/sustained damage.

Essentially a rogue doesn't really need heals and can also off tank to cheese mechanics. The only reason blizzz doesn't nurf them is because they are the most vocal in forums. You nurf a single rogue ability by 5% and you'll have 100's of QQrs in the forums.

[durenas]

You wanna know how I can tell you've never used the ability? When you don't realise that popping that off CD is a huge help for healers. Healing 3 people for a potentially 120+k crit heal, instantly, is a crowd saver. If you don't help your group as an assist then that's a majority of your utility gone.

Might as well play a warr with your mindset.

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You must have not played rogue at the start of legion. Assasin got nurfed by 60% before they stopped, just within the first half year of the expansion. They will say that rogues have too much utility and too much burst/sustained damage.

Essentially a rogue doesn't really need heals and can also off tank to cheese mechanics. The only reason blizzz doesn't nurf them is because they are the most vocal in forums. You nurf a single rogue ability by 5% and you'll have 100's of QQrs in the forums.

You're entirely correct. I opened my mouth and spoke about something with which I have no knowledge. It's a personal failing, and one I try to avoid whenever I catch myself doing it. This time I failed to catch myself.

[Neverafter]

You're entirely correct. I opened my mouth and spoke about something with which I have no knowledge. It's a personal failing, and one I try to avoid whenever I catch myself doing it. This time I failed to catch myself.

Wow, Canada seems like some kind of magical hippy paradise.

In the USA when people keep pointing out mistakes you made, you eventually resort to "oh yea, well eff you and the horse you rode in on". In Canada, you keep apologizing. Like, wow. I may have to visit this snow covered moosey wonderland someday.

[CrawlFromThePit]

It might be my less than stellar Raider.io score (i only do m+ once a week), but it seems that ret is not that much wanted in groups, this is not only my experience but a lot of others too (i know it's only anecdotal so do take it as it is).

Am i just being delusional or am i right? if so why?

They sucked major ass at the beginning of the xpack and Blizz never really gave them the "full retard" buff they needed to change people's perspective like they did with prot warriors.