Why are Rets so unwanted in M+?

[Ermelloth]

I'm maining Ret for years and it's been always the case with the spec.

We're always a sub par spec both in PvP and PvE (except the early half of WoTLK expansion and one mid-Pandaria PvP season). Nothing new; not taken to raids, not taken to Rated Battlegrounds, not taken to 2vs2 and now - not wanted in M+.

I wonder, how long Blizzard devs are going to continue mocking Ret Paladins?

A lot of people love Rets and even consider them main class / spec choice because this true "hero class" is appealing and fulfills a "warrior of Light" fantasy concept so well. However, we're always kept maximum in the middle or in the end of both PvP and PvE food chain for unknown reasons... as if Blizzard devs don't want players who love this particular spec, to fully enjoy it!

Look at mages, locks, for example. Almost always at the top, both in PvP and PvE. Same with rogues. Ok, these are pure DPS classes, you say. How about hybrid Balance Druids? Druids have 4 specs, yet Balance is always one of first choice specs in Rated BGs, raids, dungeons, etc. Shadow Priests? Etc? ...

P.S. It might sound funny but one of the problems people are leaving / stopping playing WoW is the everlasting bad condition of RET PALADINS. Cause a LOT of people actually main one.

If we were made a TOP spec at least for ONE PATCH, first time since WoTLK (it's been almost 10 years!), I would bet a lot of players gonna make a comeback. What was most played WoW expac? WoTLK? Maybe this is exactly the reason why.

[Loveliest]

TBH, M+ has always been this way about several classes. It will also depend on the affixes for the week as to what is desired or not.

The primary problem is that M+ is geared towards speed, and people aren't really interested in doing the dungeon; they want to get it done super fast. This is a really, really bad concept for an RPG game, so the toxicity surrounding it is actually expected by anyone really thinking about it (which clearly doesn't include Blizz themselves).

Please. LF2M for dungeon. Come to Org to check gear. How much more defense rating do you have over the cap (even if it's useless)?
It's human nature to want to get as much as possible with the least effort and time involvement as possible. It has nothing to do with WoW.

And FF14? Like you don't see people there running dungeons at super speed, pulling everything in one go, doing stupid tactics like sacrificing a tank so they don't stop to kill trash on the way?
People are people. The only difference is that the more they are, the pickier they get. And the more complaining they do. The more there are the more they seem to think the game should be tailored for them, the more they gather and follow what others tell them like sheep. The more they are, the harder it is for the devs to make them happy - you can find threads here that complain how casual this game is and how casual unfriendly it is as well.

[crusadernero]

I'm maining Ret for years and it's been always the case with the spec.

We're always a sub par spec both in PvP and PvE (except the early half of WoTLK expansion and one mid-Pandaria PvP season). Nothing new; not taken to raids, not taken to Rated Battlegrounds, not taken to 2vs2 and now - not wanted in M+.

I wonder, how long Blizzard devs are going to continue mocking Ret Paladins?

A lot of people love Rets and even consider them main class / spec choice because this true "hero class" is appealing and fulfills a "warrior of Light" fantasy concept so well. However, we're always kept maximum in the middle or in the end of both PvP and PvE food chain for unknown reasons... as if Blizzard devs don't want players who love this particular spec, to fully enjoy it!

Look at mages, locks, for example. Almost always at the top, both in PvP and PvE. Same with rogues. Ok, these are pure DPS classes, you say. How about hybrid Balance Druids? Druids have 4 specs, yet Balance is always one of first choice specs in Rated BGs, raids, dungeons, etc. Shadow Priests? Etc? ...

P.S. It might sound funny but one of the problems people are leaving / stopping playing WoW is the everlasting bad condition of RET PALADINS. Cause a LOT of people actually main one.

If we were made a TOP spec at least for ONE PATCH, first time since WoTLK (it's been almost 10 years!), I would bet a lot of players gonna make a comeback. What was most played WoW expac? WoTLK? Maybe this is exactly the reason why.

I gave up on ret sometime during Legion and went holy. Been fulltime holy ever since. it works out OK when I spec into certain talents and HoA/azerite traits.

Cant be bothered having ret gear to, cause at this point there is no reason to. Useless everywhere and cant get invites.

[SirCowdog]

I'm maining Ret for years and it's been always the case with the spec.

We're always a sub par spec both in PvP and PvE (except the early half of WoTLK expansion and one mid-Pandaria PvP season). Nothing new; not taken to raids, not taken to Rated Battlegrounds, not taken to 2vs2 and now - not wanted in M+.

I wonder, how long Blizzard devs are going to continue mocking Ret Paladins?

A lot of people love Rets and even consider them main class / spec choice because this true "hero class" is appealing and fulfills a "warrior of Light" fantasy concept so well. However, we're always kept maximum in the middle or in the end of both PvP and PvE food chain for unknown reasons... as if Blizzard devs don't want players who love this particular spec, to fully enjoy it!

Look at mages, locks, for example. Almost always at the top, both in PvP and PvE. Same with rogues. Ok, these are pure DPS classes, you say. How about hybrid Balance Druids? Druids have 4 specs, yet Balance is always one of first choice specs in Rated BGs, raids, dungeons, etc. Shadow Priests? Etc? ...

P.S. It might sound funny but one of the problems people are leaving / stopping playing WoW is the everlasting bad condition of RET PALADINS. Cause a LOT of people actually main one.

If we were made a TOP spec at least for ONE PATCH, first time since WoTLK (it's been almost 10 years!), I would bet a lot of players gonna make a comeback. What was most played WoW expac? WoTLK? Maybe this is exactly the reason why.

I think part of the reason pure dps classes tend to be higher in the rankings is because they jave 3 specs to work with. Even druid has two dps specs. One of those specs is more likely to fit the meta. Whereas paladins only have 1 shot that already suffers the handicap of being melee.

But I think you're correct in that Blizzard needs to make that 1 DPS spec more valuable to groups with a unique mechanic or utility. As we've seen in this thread, WoG sort of does that, but only with certain affixes. Maybe something a little more consistent would help?

[swatsonqt]

I think part of the reason pure dps classes tend to be higher in the rankings is because they jave 3 specs to work with. Even druid has two dps specs. One of those specs is more likely to fit the meta. Whereas paladins only have 1 shot that already suffers the handicap of being melee.

But I think you're correct in that Blizzard needs to make that 1 DPS spec more valuable to groups with a unique mechanic or utility. As we've seen in this thread, WoG sort of does that, but only with certain affixes. Maybe something a little more consistent would help?

how is beeing melee a handicap? correct me if im wrong but most m+ comps favor more melees?

[SirCowdog]

how is beeing melee a handicap? correct me if im wrong but most m+ comps favor more melees?

Melee, as in rogues, maybe. Many of the top M+ groups even go as far as to have 2.

What I meant by melee being a handicap is that you have to move to your target before you can start doing anything really useful. Other melee classes have various abilities to get that done, while ret has a single sprint on a relatively long cooldown unless you waste a talent for a second use. That means in order to make up for that, a ret would need to bring heavy utility like rogues do. And they don't really do that. WoG is just about it, with maybe WoA used situationally.

Not that a skillful and determined ret player still can't get shit done. But for most groups it's going to be an easy choice to take something else that brings more to the table. Especially when they synergize well with other classes.

[Faesroll]

Melee, as in rogues, maybe. Many of the top M+ groups even go as far as to have 2.

What I meant by melee being a handicap is that you have to move to your target before you can start doing anything really useful. Other melee classes have various abilities to get that done, while ret has a single sprint on a relatively long cooldown unless you waste a talent for a second use. That means in order to make up for that, a ret would need to bring heavy utility like rogues do. And they don't really do that. WoG is just about it, with maybe WoA used situationally.

Not that a skillful and determined ret player still can't get shit done. But for most groups it's going to be an easy choice to take something else that brings more to the table. Especially when they synergize well with other classes.

Mobility is hardly an issue in m+, very few fights or pulls require extensive mobility

[Platinengel]

Mobility is hardly an issue in m+, very few fights or pulls require extensive mobility

And not only that, Rets have a variety of mid-range attacks or pre-casts they can use while running to the target. And usually they start a bit ahead on each trashpack due to positioning, so they reach the next pack right when casters are able to cast. And since the tanks have to be there first in most cases anyway, thats hardly a handicap.

Rets are fine im M+, they suffer perception of the dumb as most times. Only because some class isnt god-tier, most casuals think they arent viable. Thats why I recommend to everyone not to run Content in this game with randoms.

[Tyrilion]

What I meant by melee being a handicap is that you have to move to your target before you can start doing anything really useful.

Mate unless you actually play M+ above +5 dont chime in, melee are by far the favored DPS In M+ theres a few weeks where boomkin and hunter shine but i will always take a Fury/Havoc/Assas/WW over a ranged dps

[Revamp Man]

So
"My class isn't too on leaderboards so noone wants us"

Ret is fine

[swatsonqt]

Melee, as in rogues, maybe. Many of the top M+ groups even go as far as to have 2.

What I meant by melee being a handicap is that you have to move to your target before you can start doing anything really useful. Other melee classes have various abilities to get that done, while ret has a single sprint on a relatively long cooldown unless you waste a talent for a second use. That means in order to make up for that, a ret would need to bring heavy utility like rogues do. And they don't really do that. WoG is just about it, with maybe WoA used situationally.

Not that a skillful and determined ret player still can't get shit done. But for most groups it's going to be an easy choice to take something else that brings more to the table. Especially when they synergize well with other classes.

ok i understand...in that regards "handicapped" sounds like the right description.

[SirCowdog]

Mate unless you actually play M+ above +5 dont chime in, melee are by far the favored DPS In M+ theres a few weeks where boomkin and hunter shine but i will always take a Fury/Havoc/Assas/WW over a ranged dps

Sorry, I wasn't super clear. I didn't mean that it's what I would do. But that's the general perception by the masses. My ability to express ideas hasn't been very good lately. :/

I DO think rets need more utility, however. Only being "fine" doesn't cut it in a world of super meta optimal or GTFO players.

On a side note, it's a problem a lot of classes suffer due to all the pruning Blizz did in BFA.

[Faesroll]

Sorry, I wasn't super clear. I didn't mean that it's what I would do. But that's the general perception by the masses. My ability to express ideas hasn't been very good lately. :/

I DO think rets need more utility, however. Only being "fine" doesn't cut it in a world of super meta optimal or GTFO players.

On a side note, it's a problem a lot of classes suffer due to all the pruning Blizz did in BFA.

Rets have plenty of utility, it's just not optimal for top tier M+. It's still perfectly viable for anything outside of top 10 runs or MDI.

[Swnem]

I wouldn't know. Our AoE damage is pretty good and BoP's, freedoms, bubble clears and word of glory are all pretty good utility.

It may be cause Rogues are OP and every other melee is seen as bad. But, Ret is pretty good. I always felt useful to my group and my damage was good.

[SirCowdog]

Rets have plenty of utility, it's just not optimal for top tier M+. It's still perfectly viable for anything outside of top 10 runs or MDI.

And the problem with that is that in MMORPGs, anything that is not optimal is trash. I don't agree with that sentiment, but that's how a vast majority of player operate, and is very likely the reason that rets don't generally get spots in M+.

So even if ret is "Viable" for anything except top 10 runs, the way the meta and elitism works in this game is that it will be extended to "Rets are not good at anything" because of the lack of utility or effectiveness in that top percentage.

It's a community perception problem, for sure. But there it is.

[Switchd]

And the problem with that is that in MMORPGs, anything that is not optimal is trash. I don't agree with that sentiment, but that's how a vast majority of player operate, and is very likely the reason that rets don't generally get spots in M+.

So even if ret is "Viable" for anything except top 10 runs, the way the meta and elitism works in this game is that it will be extended to "Rets are not good at anything" because of the lack of utility or effectiveness in that top percentage.

It's a community perception problem, for sure. But there it is.

I can agree with this.

[Faesroll]

I wouldn't know. Our AoE damage is pretty good and BoP's, freedoms, bubble clears and word of glory are all pretty good utility.

It may be cause Rogues are OP and every other melee is seen as bad. But, Ret is pretty good. I always felt useful to my group and my damage was good.

All that utility is extremely situational, whereas rogues utility is useful on almost every pack or boss.

[Dakara]

Because M+ attempts to cram 5 Specs into Endgame Content from a pool of 36.

[Cyi]

So why are HDH so popular then? I don't see them bring anywhere near the utility of a rogue yet still seem to be the go to spec for dps alongside rogues. Is it just because they are great at multi target burst?

[Sylvaeres]

This nonsense thread has nothing to do with your class/spec and has everything to do with your score OP. Ret is perfectly fine for M+, especially if played properly.