Why are Rets so unwanted in M+?

[kebabmasterxd]

I play ret in M+ as 442ilvl, i've done my fair shares of 12-17 keys and i can tell you the bad bad stuff about the spec (and the good)

Most of their utility is only useful in a small amount of circumstances, they were ok last week with necrotic and bursting because WoG and bop can be very handy, other than that it has almost no use other than saving yourself.

they have no good CC for dungeons, so no aoe stuns unless they are undead/demon, if they choose blinding light it has a fucking 2 min cd.

Now the damage, single target, yea they're decent i'm almost always on top on bosses, but M+ is all about the trash, Rets AOE during wings can obliterate packs with the right traits, but outside of it you can often be very low on dps unless you get lucky with divine purpose/emp power procs, at higher keys you need high consistent dps on all packs.

but overall the utility of other melee just outshines us (except dps warrior)

[Flaks]

You'll see every dps spec complaining about mythic except for leather melee and that's because there's a ridiculous bias towards them from the dev team. They have no downsides including cc, massive aoe, single target, ridiculous utility and self sustain. Plate classes as a whole need to have some utterly broken mechanic like arms seismic slam or ret unnerfed empyrean power/light's decree or unholy with no aoe cap to even compete.

[Musta]

Because class design is at its worst.

[OokOok]

Nails it on the head. Melee have a lot of disadvantages, but rogues have enough nigh mandatory utility to counteract that.

You have it backwards, it's ranged that aren't wanted. They're slow, they have to cast to deal damage, they're squishy still in the game, they have slow ramp up and have to stop dpsing to move unless you're a BM hunter.
Melee dominate M+, it's a fact, after rogue comes DH, after DH comes Monk, only after these 3 do groups start bringing ranged, and then it's typically Mage/Hunter > Ele shaman > warlock > Shadow priest
Dk/Ret/Ench just don't even bother, why bring any of these melee when you can bring a rogue/dh or monk and there's always one.


However this isn't WoW, it's EVERY mmo, every MMO has 1-3 classes/jobs that dominate that everyone wants and if you don't play any of these you're on the bench. My first MMO was FFXI back in 2002-2005 and if you weren't a caster, you didn't get invites, it was the opposite, no one wanted melee, ever, melee hit mobs that caused them to build TP which allowed mobs/bosses to do special abilities that can wipe the group.
FFXIV is typically the same, ranged are wanted over melee but atleast melee can stand their ground on the meters.
Blade and soul, same thing, ranged dominated pve and PVP
SWTOR, ranged classes do more damage than the melee and dngs are easier with more bounty hunters than Mara Sith


WoW is like the only MMO where playing a melee is in your best interest.

[swatsonqt]

You'll see every dps spec complaining about mythic except for leather melee and that's because there's a ridiculous bias towards them from the dev team. They have no downsides including cc, massive aoe, single target, ridiculous utility and self sustain. Plate classes as a whole need to have some utterly broken mechanic like arms seismic slam or ret unnerfed empyrean power/light's decree or unholy with no aoe cap to even compete.

dude...like...srsly

go to one of the leather melee forums and watch how they are also qqing.
Even the rogues are qqing^^
Chances are pretty low that the dev team will be like " Seems like paladins and warriors are doing pretty good on the meters right now...think we gotta have an extra meeting on friday to make sure that this won't go on"

Like...come on that's ridiculous

[KeirAdish]

When picking DPS I'm less likely to pick a Ret paladin for the slot than a different burst melee, because they never manage their threat levels where other classes do.
Most ret paladins will blow all their CD's on CD at the beginning of pulls and give no time for the tank to pick up threat, often times they don't even have time to bubble or bop themselves before the threat gen from their 300k+ burst kills them.

Which the burst is nice.... if they would give tanks a moment to get threat before bursting it and only living for 3 seconds.

(I also main a Prot Paladin so I know how it goes with Paladins and that each of those rets could be playing better and managing their threat levels instead of ballz to the wallz on pull.)

[Lilly32]

Rogues windwalkers and Havoc are much more represented, so every time you queue there are probably one of those also queued for each ret. Also ret simply lacks utility compared to rogue/ww/havoc.

did I miss something? Since when can you queue for Mythic Dungeons?

[sunxsera]

did I miss something? Since when can you queue for Mythic Dungeons?

I -> Premade Groups -> Dungeons

[Zmagoslav]

Good news: It might become slightly better for us in next season, when the new affix makes rogues less obligatory.... but then again a certain potion did that up till now also.

[Mouri Kogorou]

its the 90% of Ret Paladins that dont respec out of selfless healer and into word of glory that kill it for the 2% that are worth a shit. The other 8% do respec but are unwilling to sacrifice 1-2k dps to heal the group with word of glory when they should. In anything 12 and under group come doesnt matter

Wait, people don't use word of glory???????

[Ashina]

Good news: It might become slightly better for us in next season, when the new affix makes rogues less obligatory.... but then again a certain potion did that up till now also.

The days of bringing Rogues only for Shroud are long over. Outlaw has outright stupid AoE burst potential and it's up basically every time you need it.

[The Butt Witch]

Right, because it's so damn complicated to run your own keys.
It's so complicated to start an m0, get a key and then go from there as high as you can.
You don't even have to lead the group, tanks most usually know where to go.

[Marrilaife]

So asking for a rogue to do mythic+15 is absolute BS and shows how dumb the leader is.

At least on +15 you could assume they want to do some shroud skips. Now imagine that groups also ask for a rogue on +10 or +7 where it's often easier to just kill the pack than trying to skip around it because all it needs is 1 inexperienced player and the pack will be pulled anyway and the skip will fail. Yet, groups as low as below 10 ask for "must have" rogues.

[Morgaith]

They aren't ww/dh/rogue, same reason the other melee aren't being picked due to not being FOTM.

[jiih]

At least on +15 you could assume they want to do some shroud skips. Now imagine that groups also ask for a rogue on +10 or +7 where it's often easier to just kill the pack than trying to skip around it because all it needs is 1 inexperienced player and the pack will be pulled anyway and the skip will fail. Yet, groups as low as below 10 ask for "must have" rogues.

this so much. the amount of wannabes who watched too many streams and tryhard some stupid skips on a +10 for weekly even thi they barely know what game they play and fuck it up anyway.

yesterday i had a russian tank ragequit on a +11 because he wanted to deathskip the tide emissary before before first boss in freehold in a 440+ grp for weekly.

[Ange]

They aren't ww/dh/rogue, same reason the other melee aren't being picked due to not being FOTM.

Right now, end of content, inflated ilvl's for everyone, META dh/rogue gets choosen over anything else.
Your r.io rating means nothing if we talk about the ~2k range, because PUGs will most likely just choose a fresh 1000 rated rogue/dh over your non-META class.

It will be even worse as usual with the next content patch.
1. FOTM will be choosen to start the new season rating climbing
2. FOTM will have simply more gear/time because of the instant groups they get
3. FOTM will have more rating, more gear at the start of week2

Even if you cath up with your non-META class in gear and rating, PUG will most likely choose against your class, even through your off-META class had to be played better with worse groups, had to use less opportunitys to get gear/rating and overall had to be played simply much more because all of this - more experience, much more experience with different setups, more, more, more. Still nobody cares, PUGs will still choose the newby rogue/dh even if they are only able to play with ONE setup and with very specific routes.

The rating system does not work without class balance in M+ and there is not really any other alternative for PUGs but to use the given ratings.

Your options are limited. You can either limit your goals in this part of the game and just min-max M+ for gearing, you can join a team and deal with raid-typical schedule/motivations issues or you can quit this part of the game alltogether.

[Marrilaife]

yesterday i had a russian tank ragequit on a +11 because he wanted to deathskip the tide emissary before before first boss in freehold in a 440+ grp for weekly.

Lol. I still remember that time I pugged +13 Waycrest on a teeming week back in season 2 and told them I'm not gonna do any skips cuz we need the trash count, and the leader still wasted good 20 mins of our time looking a rogue we completely didn't require.

I also remember pugging some super low key motherlode and asking the group if they wanna skip after 3rd boss or no and the resto druid says "you decide", so I had bad feelings about it (low key = low xp people) and decided to just clear it, afterwards he asks "btw how do you do the skip?" I mean... if you don't know it would 100% fail so why don't you just say "don't skip" when I asked? What's worse, you admitting not knowing, or you not admitting and wiping the group then getting all the rage directed at you?

It gets on my nerves too how many people wanna skip to 1st boss on Underrot or Temple, you do realize this is a pug and if we wipe, or anyone dies and auto releases the path will be cut off? Yes, people who push 20s and above already assume no wipes / stupid deaths allowed or the key won't be pushed, but that rule doesn't apply on 10 or 15.

They aren't ww/dh/rogue, same reason the other melee aren't being picked due to not being FOTM.

Yep, basically most pugs will be keyholder wanting rogue + dh and being the 3rd dps himself. WW is not even that meta anymore when Brewmasters started being popular for high key pushing and providing the monk buff for the group. Brewmaster is getting some nerfs for 8.3 so I wonder if we'll be back to only prot warrs in high key meta.

New affix is meant to give some way of doing skips for no rogue groups, but we'll see how that pans out, so far all the "seasonal affixes" were meant to shake up the meta and only did a tiny ripple. Reaping was the weakest of them all, it was mostly ignored and everything was aoe zerged.