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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    This is not really how I remembered it. Anub'Arak was harder than any of the regular Ulduar Bosses. Only Firefighter and Yogg minus keepers were harder than Anub. Still one of the longer lived bosses in WoW history. Faction Champions and Beasts of Northrend were also harder than most Ulduar bosses. Jaraxxus and Twin Valkyr were a joke though.
    Anub Heroic was definetely overtuned and didn't help hardcore raiders to like the raid (we got to the last boss within a couple of weeks and then were stuck there for another couple of month).

    But I was mostly talking about the normal raider/casual. They cleared Nax without problems and then got stuck trying to get through Ulduar, because heroic mode was only half implemented, so some parts of the raid were tuned for them and then others were tuned for heroic raiders and then there was buttons you could press but maybe shouldn't press and also the raid was so large and (pseudo)linear that you had a tough time getting to the later bosses.

    In colloseum, you just went into normal mode and killed everything within a couple of hours. It was basically the lfr beta.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    This is not really how I remembered it. Anub'Arak was harder than any of the regular Ulduar Bosses. Only Firefighter and Yogg minus keepers were harder than Anub. Still one of the longer lived bosses in WoW history. Faction Champions and Beasts of Northrend were also harder than most Ulduar bosses. Jaraxxus and Twin Valkyr were a joke though.
    What you're not "remembering" is that Anub'arak had limited amount of tries, which were also shared by all the other bosses. The boss itself died rather quickly, especially since Paladins could use Holy Wrath to perma-stun the adds and make them a non-factor. It was hotfixed, but still, he was a pushover when compared to real end bosses, with limited attempt being the artifical way of making him last longer.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    In colloseum, you just went into normal mode and killed everything within a couple of hours. It was basically the lfr beta.
    I envy the server you were on, back then I played on full pop albeit RP server and most pugs crashed and burnt at faction champions.

  4. #124
    Regarding OP saying he or she had heard Ulduar wasn't well-liked when released - that's absurd. Ulduar blew everyone away right out of the gates. Everyone I knew that played WoW was talking about it, everyone in my guild was vocal about how amazing it was, etc. There were probably some whiners crying about it because it was *slightly* harder than Naxx, but I mostly remember people commenting on how uninspired and boring ToC was.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by CcB View Post
    It was the first raid with mythic.
    mythic came late mop

  6. #126
    Well, its possible server identity was still a heavy thing influencing things like this, but just my 2 cents:

    -People on both my servers loved Ulduar (Horde and Alliance)

    -I don't know where you are getting it only last 4 months, Ulduar still had upgrades, a Legendary, and many achievements, world firsts too I think

    -I don't get the hate for ToC. It fit thematically. It had many major lore characters and the LK. It was pretty cool, saved for the last boss being meh. Not every raid needs massive square footage. Though, ToC should have been between Naxx and Ulduar, or released simultaneously, or had the item level closer than Ulduar. ToC should have filled in some gear spots for classes instead of "trivializing" Ulduar, as you said. Not many spellcaster rings in Ulduar? Great chance to put it in ToC.

    -I think they were trying something "new" with the "limited number of tries" thing... it has its pros and cons like anything else.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    What you're not "remembering" is that Anub'arak had limited amount of tries, which were also shared by all the other bosses. The boss itself died rather quickly, especially since Paladins could use Holy Wrath to perma-stun the adds and make them a non-factor. It was hotfixed, but still, he was a pushover when compared to real end bosses, with limited attempt being the artifical way of making him last longer.
    No, I remember limited attempts. Anub'Arak was still harder than every boss in Ulduar bar Firefighter and Yogg +2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbselle View Post
    mythic came late mop
    Mythic was just a name change. Heroic mode in WOTLK was the equivalent of Mythic in MoP.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
    Honestly, a large part of this is most likely because it had such a short lifetime as current content
    This. It remained "fresh" and so, even if if you didn't like some of the encounters you weren't forced to grind it for months on end - reducing the negative impact on your memory.

    To be fair to Blizz the overwhelming majority of theie raids (for the time they were released) were pretty enjoyable and well designed (again, for the time) - its largely secondary factors (having nothing else to do for more than 6 months, specific class design, reputation grinds associated with them, weird mechanics that require specific items not local to the boss - looking at 'insanity' mechanic Nyalotha ) that make or break people's lasting impression of the raid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    It's because a lot more people raided back then, so there was much more of a demand for new raid content, constantly. That was also the x-pac that saw the "filler raid" at the end.
    Are you talking hard numbers or proportion? I don't think there were proportionally more raiders in WotLK than now. For better or for worse raiding is far more accessible than it was then.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Just a slight correction: Mythic was released in its current iteration with the WoD pre-patch. All of SoO's relevant progression occurred with the "old" 10/25M raid structure that was established at the beginning of Cata.
    Sure, but certainly not with Ulduar.

    Quote Originally Posted by CcB View Post
    It's the same exact concept. An extra layer of increased difficulty, asshole.
    Oh, I'm the asshole? I wasn't the one using italics like I'm so smart. Dude, you didn't even pay attention to the fact that Ulduar didn't even have LFR or heroic modes, it was literally normal, and then normal with something triggered to make the fight harder and often times very different. I see you going on the offence after being called out for your ignorance. I'm sorry for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post

    Mythic was just a name change. Heroic mode in WOTLK was the equivalent of Mythic in MoP.
    Not exactly...
    In Wrath there was normal for Naxx, then normal with optional hard modes for Ulduar, then normal and heroic for both ToC and ICC.
    Heroic is still heroic... now they just offer and even tougher mode above heroic... and an even easier mode below normal.
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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    Sure, but certainly not with Ulduar.
    Agreed. Ulduar hard modes laid the groundwork for what eventually became Mythic but it was a fairly iterative process and it's a bit reductive to refer to Ulduar as the "first Mythic raid."

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Agreed. Ulduar hard modes laid the groundwork for what eventually became Mythic but it was a fairly iterative process and it's a bit reductive to refer to Ulduar as the "first Mythic raid."
    Now just waiting on Blizzard to announce MEGA mode.
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  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    Sure, but certainly not with Ulduar.



    Oh, I'm the asshole? I wasn't the one using italics like I'm so smart. Dude, you didn't even pay attention to the fact that Ulduar didn't even have LFR or heroic modes, it was literally normal, and then normal with something triggered to make the fight harder and often times very different. I see you going on the offence after being called out for your ignorance. I'm sorry for you.

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    Not exactly...
    In Wrath there was normal for Naxx, then normal with optional hard modes for Ulduar, then normal and heroic for both ToC and ICC.
    Heroic is still heroic... now they just offer and even tougher mode above heroic... and an even easier mode below normal.
    Well, no, not really. In MoP they introduced Flex, so you already had the same 3 levels of non-queuable raids that we have today. They were just named differently.

    MoP: Flex, Normal, Heroic

    Was renamed to:

    Normal, Heroic, Mythic in WoD.

    And it wasn't really until Trial Of Valor in legion that "Mythic" raiding really became the ultra hard mode raids we have now. Before then Mythic raids were not nearly as big a step up from Heroic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Agreed. Ulduar hard modes laid the groundwork for what eventually became Mythic but it was a fairly iterative process and it's a bit reductive to refer to Ulduar as the "first Mythic raid."
    Not least because Sartharian 3 Drakes was actually the first raid with Hard Modes, not Ulduar.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2019-12-02 at 05:16 AM.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Not least because Sartharian 3 Drakes was actually the first raid with Hard Modes, not Ulduar.
    Zul'gurub and Hakkar without killing Priests. Or Bug Trio in AQ.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    And it wasn't really until Trial Of Valor in legion that "Mythic" raiding really became the ultra hard mode raids we have now. Before then Mythic raids were not nearly as big a step up from Heroic.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not least because Sartharian 3 Drakes was actually the first raid with Hard Modes, not Ulduar.
    I'd disagree with the first point; a lot of previous Mythic fights were vastly different than their normal/heroic counterparts long before Legion. Garrosh Hellscream in Siege of Orgrimmar added an extra phase that was completely different than the rest of the fight, Warlords of Draenor had massive changes in every raid between normal/heroic to mythic with Imperator Mar'gok and Tectus in Highmaul getting a lot of changes for mythic specifically. Blackrock Foundry also had a lot of mythic changes; the difference between Kromog on normal/heroic to mythic added a mechanic that required a lot of coordination among your raid, new trains on Thogar, and almost every fight in Hellfire Citadel had some sort of added mechanic to it that made it much more difficult.

    And as KaPe posted above me, there were hard modes before Sartharion as well. Bug Trio is the first proper one with the loot changing depending on kill order; Zul'gurub was technically a hard mode in that there were extra buff on the boss if you didn't kill the priests, but that wasn't designed as a hard mode boss. More specifically, it was just there to prevent you from skipping straight to Hakkar without clearing the raid because of the powerful trinkets rewarded from his quest drop and was never actually intended to be attempted with the priests still up. He had massive attack speed buffs, multiple ways to drop tank threat so tanking him was almost impossible even if you could survive, and an AoE silence so even if you lived and somehow found a way to hold threat, you couldn't be healed as a tank!

  15. #135
    Forgive me for not reading through the thread, but I'd be interested in opinions regarding whether Ulduar is considered such a good raid (at least in part) by the fact that it was relatively short-lived.

    Don't get me wrong, I loved Ulduar and the hardmodes were fuckin' awesome, but I can imagine that because it was so short fewer people managed to get to the 'slog' point in the content cycle before moving on. Idk about everyone else but my memories of raids are definitely coloured by how burnt out/bored I got of certain dungeons. ICC for example, I thought was awesome but I'd be lying if I said that towards the latter end of WotLK I didn't hate the fuckin' place after raiding it on several characters for months on end.

  16. #136
    Back then farming previous tier for gear was interesting. I used to run NM ToC 10 and 25 while attempting the frist bosses of ICC.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    To be fair to Blizz the overwhelming majority of theie raids (for the time they were released) were pretty enjoyable and well designed (again, for the time) - its largely secondary factors (having nothing else to do for more than 6 months, specific class design, reputation grinds associated with them, weird mechanics that require specific items not local to the boss - looking at 'insanity' mechanic Nyalotha ) that make or break people's lasting impression of the raid.
    Maybe, but some raids imo were badly designed because they either had majority of bosses prefer the same class type (for example your average raid would have 2-3 "multidot" fights a.k.a. councils, but some would have more than half the bosses favour multidotters by overusing medium or long lived add mechanic), or require very specific class mechanic to counter the challenge, often with multiple copies of that ability needed across the raid.

    Class design can be an issue if a class is just overpowered. But a raid designed to synergize with a class that it pushes it from "just above average" to "S tier pick" is not just fault of class balance team, but raid design as well. Same could be said about broken OP trinkets - who are they designed by? Raid devs or class devs or yet another, 3rd team? Do these people communicate and realize what kind of impact will it have? Stuff like UVLS allowing Warlocks to have 100% crit chance on dot ticks as long as you managed to apply these dots within the small window, but they could last much past that.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
    I'd disagree with the first point; a lot of previous Mythic fights were vastly different than their normal/heroic counterparts long before Legion. Garrosh Hellscream in Siege of Orgrimmar added an extra phase that was completely different than the rest of the fight, Warlords of Draenor had massive changes in every raid between normal/heroic to mythic with Imperator Mar'gok and Tectus in Highmaul getting a lot of changes for mythic specifically. Blackrock Foundry also had a lot of mythic changes; the difference between Kromog on normal/heroic to mythic added a mechanic that required a lot of coordination among your raid, new trains on Thogar, and almost every fight in Hellfire Citadel had some sort of added mechanic to it that made it much more difficult.
    I didn't say these fights were no different. I said that they weren't the extra super difficulty of current Mythic raids like we have to day. Where even world first guilds are taking 400 wipes to kill bosses.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    I didn't say these fights were no different. I said that they weren't the extra super difficulty of current Mythic raids like we have to day. Where even world first guilds are taking 400 wipes to kill bosses.
    Because back then there was significant gear disparity between players on the 1st kill and players on the 500th kill. so top guilds had to not only counter mechanics, but also the fact they came to the fights undergeared.

    Modern wow allows people to power farm gear to the point there's often very small difference in ilvl between world top guild on their 1st kill and an average guild who arrives at the boss 3 months later.

    This seriously ruined raiding. Gearing curve was the elegant tool to soft nerf the raid over time, and increase longevity of the tier. Nowadays you can outgear heroic by week 2 of the tier by spam farming m+, and the end bosses are tuned around that extra surge of gear, while being a challenge to world first guilds.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    And it wasn't really until Trial Of Valor in legion that "Mythic" raiding really became the ultra hard mode raids we have now. Before then Mythic raids were not nearly as big a step up from Heroic.
    Exactly, Emerald Nightmare was designed with the old paradigm, where it's tuned around slow acquisition of gear, so what happened is people outgeared that expectation really fast and steamrolled the place. So Blizzard started with extremely punishing designs where bosses were tuned around having high gear and levels of AP from the get go, just because they had to outdo the playerbase who nolife farmed everything possible to trivialize content like Emerald Nightmare.

    I don't think Emerald Nightmare was a badly designed raid, except Xavius which as far as I remember Blizzard admitted of not being able to implement the ideas they had for him, so the fight got gutted. But that issue was also compounded by severe underestimation of Blizzard what are the expected levels of gear and ap on hardcore players. Since then it's been an "arms race" between hardcore players devising more and more twisted ways to speed gear their teams (crafting items then dropping that profession so you have 3 slots tradable? faction changing to get extra warfront item? buying tf boes xrealm and transfering them in paid guild transfer?) / nolife farm... and Blizzard tuning bosses tighter and tighter with more and more mechanics.

    And generally this is to detriment of average player, who now cannot top the world first player by 15-20 ilvls any more to cover the difference of skill.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    I didn't say these fights were no different. I said that they weren't the extra super difficulty of current Mythic raids like we have to day. Where even world first guilds are taking 400 wipes to kill bosses.
    Saying they weren't much of a step up from heroic is just downright incorrect though. And multiple bosses of previous difficulties did in fact have wipe counts in that range. Using Method as our example here, literally the World First guild for every single one of the tiers I'll be using for examples, and citing two sources from before your supposed sudden increase in difficulty during Trial of Valor:

    Blackrock Foundry: http://i.imgur.com/z8P1vAY.png
    Hellfire Citadel: http://i.imgur.com/DRPPPX3.png

    Now obviously the raids have different quantities of bosses, so we'll use the average wipes per boss number to do the math on these raids.

    BRF: 65.4 wipes/boss
    HFC: 75.5 wipes/boss

    Moving on to the current expansion, or after the supposed difficulty jump:

    Uldir: https://twitter.com/methodshades/sta...342976?lang=en
    Battle for Dazar'alor: https://twitter.com/methodshades/sta...51788326334466
    The Eternal Palace: https://twitter.com/methodshades/sta...505473?lang=en

    Leaving us with the following wipe/boss averages:

    Uldir: 83.3 wipes/boss
    BoD: 53.5 wipes/boss
    EP: 79.6 wipes/boss

    Overall the numbers are fairly comparable, with the easiest raid of the bunch being one from the current expansion. The only really large jump in the numbers was for Tomb of Sargeras, featured here: http://i.imgur.com/9ndVMNW.jpg

    With an average of over 137 wipes per boss, this one particular raid takes the cake for now because of the difficulty that mythic Kil'jaeden provided. You're objectively wrong; the difficulty curve between the raids is relatively close when you actually take the time to look at the numbers. Mythic raids are generally steamrolled until you hit a few bosses that are meant to be giant roadblocks; in this case, you're looking at Blast Furnace and Blackrock for BRF, Xhul'horrac and Archimonde in particular for HFC, Mythrax and G'huun for Uldir, Jaina being the only one for BfD, and Zaqul/Azshara for EP. There's nothing in particular that suddenly swung to make mythic somehow become much more difficult at any point around Trial of Valor's release; the fights are all designed with mostly similar mechanics and higher number tuning with the exception of last bosses generally having an extra phase or particularly powerful new mechanic.

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