Dungeon finder for Mythic Keys, but with an ELO system or based on Raider IO

[Alvito]

I think the point being made was that it's circular logic: You need a high M+ score in order to get good groups, but you can't get a high M+ score without good groups.

It's not 100% accurate, but it is true enough often enough to warrant some form of Ranked Matchmaking system, IMO.

From other posters I might have believed that. The solution is simple either way you just join or make groups and play the game. Even a few weeks ago when raider.io was wiped people were still bitching about not having scores and getting invited, when it was the best time to just jump in and join the fun. People don't want to blame themselves or assume they have it harder than others.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

To be fair, you didn't actually provide any reason why it couldn't be done. You just used an example of HotS not being able to do it, and we know for a fact that HotS had its funding and dev team size drastically reduced. HotS is not WoW. The budget, dev team, and experience are all far larger for WoW.

And if it's so impossible, how is it that a 3rd party developer behind raider.IO can come up with a scoring system? Are you telling me Blizzard couldn't do better with a larger team, better data, and more money?

Raider IO is not used for matchmaking system, you're suggesting a matchmaking system based on ELO.

HotS and WOW cannot pull matchmaking filter like DOTA 2 because its playerpool is just that low, a single filter checkbox (like only 2k.io or only NA) would increase your queue time by 1-2 hours, if multiple player have multiple filter they will never get matched.

HotS already failed 1 patch after it launched, you can already see it after NA player were queued with SEA player because the pool is not large enough (they already said it, Blizz matchmaking will prefer to match you with player on your region, only after a certain of time will they start to force you to a game with bad matchmaking).

BFA have the same issue as HOTS, in random BGs or dungeon you'll start noticing Oceanic players in your group, or being queued in a 200ms arena match with Oceanic players, this is not a coincidence, this does not happen in DOTA 2 or LOL or any game with massive player pool.

[msdos]

Reading this thread, you would think people want to see a play by play instant synopsis of every single action you made in every dungeon you've done during the season, seen through the perspective of the player's eyes. It's utterly ridiculous honestly.

I run 10s and above with my guild and there isn't this pedantic level of screening and thought, every single mechanic and action isn't this thought out.

This thread is wayyyyy too ridiculous and so are the opinions on IO.

"Yeah man, I wish we just had a system in game that pulled up a small pip screen and showed me a replayable archive of all the person's dungeons in 1st person, with a dmg meter in picture, highlighting me all the abilities they use, with time stamps"

[PaladinBash]

That's just the pointlessness of raider.io in a new form. The main problem with it is that most people just do a 10 every week and that's it. It's obviously very easy to do a 10 with whatever Benthic/WQ/dungeon gear you have but kids want to be carried so they want people who have the raider.io from people that run 15s and higher which are pretty fucking pointless. It's silly but again, as much as I scoff at the system and roll my eyes at it, it's something try-hards love and only other try-hards care about it so it doesn't impact anyone else. Yeah sure, Joe Casual that never runs any keys is going to never get anywhere in it but do you want Joe Casual in your groups? Chances are he won't be able to carry you, lowly key pusher, so naturally you want only 430+ people with whatever a high io is to carry your weekly 10.

This system is designed for the true dregs of the community, those both unskilled enough to want to be try-hards but too lazy/poor to buy carries to get a high enough io to be carried for free. A LFD system would encourage even more bailing on people's keys than usual and, if you can be put into a half-finished key, the nightmare of getting into a group that's 200 deaths into a key. I just don't see it ever working for a system that involves pushing one person's key. I mean you already have this danger as it is but at least raider.io lets the try-hards that care about it and grind it police themselves to an extent. They, for all my mockery of them, at least DO this content regularly. Excessively even. Hell my issue with them is they do it too much and work too hard for so little. An LFD system is every bit built around the same nonsense except it is for people too lazy to even do that but every bit convinced it is important. Hell a lot of people pay for carries and boosts to get their raider.io high enough they can get into groups and get carried for free. This is the only type of player that would ever use this system and it is awful.

I don't use raider.io and mock it relentlessly but this isn't a solution. I've said it before and I'll say it again- let the babies have their bottle. Let them have their own try-hard system and dick measuring contest that nobody but them cares about. I mean that sincerely- just let them have it and enjoy it. If you're too lazy to do what they do despite wanting to do it for some unknowable reason, deal with it. If you're too broke to buy boosts and get free carries, deal with it. If you're like me and almost every other person that raids in the entire game, just do your 10 with people you know and forget about it til the box gives you another shitty piece then hate the game for another week. 200k dust is a long fucking grind whether you get 17k or 25k or whatever the fuck the higher keys give you.

[arkanon]

Reading this thread, you would think people want to see a play by play instant synopsis of every single action you made in every dungeon you've done during the season, seen through the perspective of the player's eyes. It's utterly ridiculous honestly.

I run 10s and above with my guild and there isn't this pedantic level of screening and thought, every single mechanic and action isn't this thought out.

This thread is wayyyyy too ridiculous and so are the opinions on IO.

"Yeah man, I wish we just had a system in game that pulled up a small pip screen and showed me a replayable archive of all the person's dungeons in 1st person, with a dmg meter in picture, highlighting me all the abilities they use, with time stamps"

With more and more focus on speed running all content, this is just a sign of the times. People expect every single goup to be a full clear raid, or in time m+. Anything else is unacceptable.

[Kallisto]

Wrong, people don't get better because the game does not force them to be. To fix "bad players" you need to force them to use their abilities.

When it did force players to use their abilities the player base left in numbers second only to WoD and not by much. They were told basically to get good or leave by ghostcrawler and they said "Fine cya.".

[Alkizon]

No, you falsely assume that a ranking system is promoting toxic behaviour. If people are toxic, they are toxic with or without a ranked system.

Well, yes, and therefore, in most projects with ranking competitive basis is such low concentration of @$$holes... or not? →

Raider IO is not used for matchmaking system, you're suggesting a matchmaking system based on ELO.

HotS and WOW cannot pull matchmaking filter like DOTA 2 because its playerpool is just that low, a single filter checkbox (like only 2k.io or only NA) would increase your queue time by 1-2 hours, if multiple player have multiple filter they will never get matched.

HotS already failed 1 patch after it launched, you can already see it after NA player were queued with SEA player because the pool is not large enough (they already said it, Blizz matchmaking will prefer to match you with player on your region, only after a certain of time will they start to force you to a game with bad matchmaking).

BFA have the same issue as HOTS, in random BGs or dungeon you'll start noticing Oceanic players in your group, or being queued in a 200ms arena match with Oceanic players, this is not a coincidence, this does not happen in DOTA 2 or LOL or any game with massive player pool.

Right, but this person's problem is again same as here (we have already argued there, and have dealt with isolation of basic perception's error): system being perceived as piecewise diverse and disjointed activites.

This is wrong, everything is connected here, everything is equally necessary and important (open world, content, progress, social relations, servers' population distribution, (RPG=class+characteristics)'s organisation etc), and it couldn't be any appropriate ranking system here (if we take exactly current online game). This E-sport mentality has been discussed on forum already a million times (even this person had moments of enlightenment), but everything continues to return to original path. They would be pleased to have separate game of "competition": without content&progression, without pro-interaction, RPG, just login to server, create character, equiped it on with few clicks and go ahead without any other preparations... and then their claims would be completely justified, but this doesn't exist, and devs trying to shove it there where it never should be. This is where all problems come from.

ps. And I don’t even want to recall topics in which it was discussed how this approach affects content design *skeptically nods at 4 raid dif.levels, M+ and scaling*

[Clozer]

Well, yes, and therefore, in most projects with ranking competitive basis is such low concentration of @$$holes... or not? →

I play dota at very high mmr and very rarely encounter someone toxic, that i gotta mute. But i meet at least 3 toxic people in a bg for comparison tho. So in my experience joining a bg is at least 3 times more likely to encounter someone toxic than playing ranked.. A bg is does not have any ranking still people are so extremly toxic. Conclusion: Ranked system does not make non-toxic people toxic. What may be is that toxic people rather play ranked, but im not even sure about that. Either way a ranked system has no effects on the toxic behaviour of players.

[Alkizon]

Clozer
I play dota at very high mmr and very rarely encounter someone toxic, that i gotta mute. But i meet at least 3 toxic people in a bg for comparison tho. So in my experience joining a bg is at least 3 times more likely to encounter someone toxic than playing ranked.. A bg is does not have any ranking still people are so extremly toxic. Conclusion: Ranked system does not make non-toxic people toxic. What may be is that toxic people rather play ranked, but im not even sure about that. Either way a ranked system has no effects on the toxic behaviour of players.

Well, be my guest, I'm not going to devalue your personal experience, it’s just that your statement transform all Internet jokes associated with this sphere of entertainment to foolishly and pompously untruth (and I’m not even afraid to call this sphere just entertainment, as an irony, although in my opinion as I said earlier, this is more of a hobby). On other hand, emergence of BG and Arena itself is one small step in exactly this direction (since its organization is something similar to situations with ranking systems). Is it clear? Ie, I immediately devalue your comparison with BG (especially considering that now their organization is somewhat different compared to original, although not very much). Your next attempt will be to make comparison with open world case... current open world. But here, after all, bad luck again, organization of current open world also partially obeys (tries) same rules of ranking systems - "piecewise design" (there was conversation earlier in links for this). You have last way: you will try to prove that toxic people were in old system too, with making same mistake. Nobody denied presence of @$$holes in old system, but conversation now is about their concentration/attraction and "reproduction", conditions under which they live more freely... which again brings us back to links above. In other words: any retail example (especially yours, above) can easily be interpreted against your statement (retail has already been played by other rules for a long time), and particular external case - as a fortuitous accident.

There are certain rules of regulation systems, they change them in every way so that game obeys others, which automatically changes attracted audience, and puts rest before the fact, to adapt or leave. There were and are @$$holes in any system, only now they live in a particularly much more easy and fun world for them... and how many more glorious changes can devs do to help them even more mmm...

Statment, that you're trying to prove, isn't true, it may be only in very private exceptional cases, since “freaks/differing” exists in any systems, but we are talking about “characteristic/typical” representatives. As soon as concentration of differing representatives exceeds “half” percentage component, they become norm, and previous norm - minority. This is clear even by definition.

In overwhelming majority, people (crowd) are very predictable and identical beings (subject to same rules), it's possible to joke that psychology and sociology are based on this.

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Clozer
Any facts or proofs here? Or just your personal experience? Because as i said my personal experience is competly different.

Do you need lessons of base psychology? You know, people are getting money for that, not a little money

Again, saying that "such is my experience" will be equivalent to not saying anything. This can be both true and false, and therefore won't be able to be at least some kind of argument. But to explain logical chain of events based on "used" rules, it will be different conversation. Do you want to try to do it? I'll help you a little, first you need to make detailed description of rules (conditions) in which decisions will be made. In your case, it will be description of system "with ranking" or something similar to it.

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Clozer
So there is nothing to proof your point of ranked system make people toxic? Not even a single statistic showing that people who play ranked are more toxic than people who dont? Nothing? So you have no ground to make any such assumptions.

All retail is a big "statistic" proof and even you already gave example above. Do you still misunderstand this?

I repeat, it is simply a fact that people behave this way in conditions of described system. I don’t even need statistics, there is a whole pile of scientific works for this, only you, as I can see, aren't able to apply this or that situation to a specific example (naturally, these works are not about WoW, of course, they describe certain conditions and task of comparing just to understand which thinking patterns should be taken, which of them is most appropriate for all parameters, and get a well-founded "mathematical/logical" solution). One of examples you have already been given in form of link, it's "prisoner's dilemma". Another thing is that it is difficult to make “harm” separately to someone in WoW; therefore, everything is often limited by mutual insults.

(but nonetheless people still find ways to do it, and ranking system gives them enough opportunities for this; although, ultimately, their goal usually isn't about "harm" itself, but to solve own problems by spitting-on/harming others, since this is faster and has no any negative consequences, which makes situation akin to mentioned "prisoner's dilemma", and exactly ranking puts this very goal before them - "climb up over others heads" - and if getting any difficulty with this - be toxic; the only thing that stops devs from introducing ranking, as already mentioned not even by me, is insufficient compliance with conditions of such systems, but they have been quite purposefully moving towards its overcoming from a certain period, which, as you can see, has already made a lot of negative effects on community "friendliness")

What did you expect from me? statistics? tables and charts? list of players by name? then you're funny person. Only analytical algorithm, there is nothing more to show here (remote statistics, as it has already been repeatedly mentioned, are myriad of internet jokes about it, and joke, as being saying, has always just fraction of joke).

[Clozer]

Well, be my guest, I'm not going to devalue your personal experience, it’s just that your statement transform all Internet jokes associated with this sphere of entertainment to foolishly and pompously untruth (and I’m not even afraid to call this sphere just entertainment, as an irony, although in my opinion as I said earlier, this is more of a hobby). On other hand, emergence of BG and Arena itself is one small step in exactly this direction (since its organization is something similar to situations with ranking systems). Is it clear? Ie, I immediately devalue your comparison with BG (especially considering that now their organization is somewhat different compared to original, although not very much). Your next attempt will be to make comparison with open world case... current open world. But here, after all, bad luck again, organization of current open world also partially obeys (tries) same rules of ranking systems - "piecewise design" (there was conversation earlier in links for this). You have last way: you will try to prove that toxic people were in old system too, with making same mistake. Nobody denied presence of @$$holes in old system, but conversation now is about their concentration/attraction and "reproduction", conditions under which they live more freely... which again brings us back to links above.

There are certain rules of regulation systems, they change them in every way so that game obeys others, which automatically changes attracted audience, and puts rest before the fact, to adapt or leave. There were and are @$$holes in any system, only now they live in a particularly much more easy and fun world for them.. and how many more glorious changes can devs do to help them even more mmm...

Statment, that you're trying to prove, isn't true, it may be only in very private exceptional cases, since “freaks/differing” exists in any systems, but we are talking about “characteristic/typical” representatives.

In overwhelming majority, people (crowd) are very predictable and identical beings (subject to same rules), it's possible to joke that psychology and sociology are based on this.

Any facts or proofs here? Or just your personal experience? Because as i said my personal experience is competly different.

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Do you need lessons of base psychology? You know, people are getting money for that, not a little money

Again, saying that "such is my experience" will be equivalent to not saying anything. This can be both true and false, and therefore won't be able to be at least some kind of argument. But to explain logical chain of events based on "used" rules, it will be different conversation. Do you want to try to do it? I'll help you a little, first you need to make detailed description of rules (conditions) in which decisions will be made. In your case, it will be description of system "with ranking" or something similar to it.

So there is nothing to proof your point of ranked system make people toxic? Not even a single statistic showing that people who play ranked are more toxic than people who dont? Nothing? So you have no ground to make any such assumptions.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Part of the problem with raid finder is getting put with bad players, forcing the game to go to the lowest common denominator difficulty wise. Why not use a method similar to arena PvP matching, where you are paired with someone of an equal skill level?

Because it would team idiots with morons and make an entire raid ready for the asylum, they would literally not kill a single boss because they would have a rt pally queue'd as tank and 4 heals who stay in dps spec.

Raid finder only works because there's a few people who actually try and they carry the parasites to victory.

[Kokolums]

I think they should definitely include some kind of ranking system for m+ in the next expansion, I think it's going that way. Other ratings are visible in-game so I don't see why not this one.

I think a some point in 9.x, Activision takes full control of Blizzard, fires most of the leads, and starts monetizing the hell out of Blizzard IPs in a total sellout to wring the last dollar out of them all, WoW included. Whatever plans the current leads have for 9.x never get completed in favor of P2W and microtransaction hell.

[Clozer]

I think a some point in 9.x, Activision takes full control of Blizzard, fires most of the leads, and starts monetizing the hell out of Blizzard IPs in a total sellout to wring the last dollar out of them all, WoW included. Whatever plans the current leads have for 9.x never get completed in favor of P2W and microtransaction hell.

Not everything is made for your needs. There are other people out there who are interested in other things than to rp in goldshire all day. Face that fact and you will enjoy YOUR life way more.

[Kokolums]

Not everything is made for your needs. There are other people out there who are interested in other things than to rp in goldshire all day. Face that fact and you will enjoy YOUR life way more.

SC2 did poorly. D3 was a bust. WoW keeps declining. OW got beat out by Fortnite. HotS is dead. There is nothing special about this version of Blizzard and I'm certain Activision wonders why should have give Blizzard special treatment and not milk its IPs for everything they can. There's no good reason. The LOUD rumors and rumblings are that Activision is coming in very soon to fully take over and monetize Blizzard products. So I see this mega push to do D4, OW2, etc. is one final push by the current Blizz team to try to score a win and maybe alter their fate. I think it fails though and Activision takes over anyway.

The way I see it, Blizzard needs to bring back social play and do it extremely soon or its over. And Blizzard will not do it.

[Clozer]

SC2 did poorly. D3 was a bust. WoW keeps declining. OW got beat out by Fortnite. HotS is dead. There is nothing special about this version of Blizzard and I'm certain Activision wonders why should have give Blizzard special treatment and not milk its IPs for everything they can. There's no good reason. The LOUD rumors and rumblings are that Activision is coming in very soon to fully take over and monetize Blizzard products. So I see this mega push to do D4, OW2, etc. is one final push by the current Blizz team to try to score a win and maybe alter their fate. I think it fails though and Activision takes over anyway.

The way I see it, Blizzard needs to bring back social play and do it extremely soon or its over. And Blizzard will not do it.

Straight up nonsense.

D3 belongs to the best selling video games of all time. OW broke so many records its crazy. Hearthstone is still doing EXTREMLY well. WoW is more than fine too.

Again, just because you don't like the direction these games are going, doesnt mean nobody is.

[Ealyssa]

Imagine thinking raider io is a definitive way of determining skill level.

Nobody said that. It’s not perfect, but it’s by far the best tool to assess a stranger’s skill level.

Denying that is just more proof we need it.

[nyc81991]

Nobody said that. It’s not perfect, but it’s by far the best tool to assess a stranger’s skill level.

Denying that is just more proof we need it.

I mean if someone has a low IO score but has tons of Mythic raid achievements / high rated PvP achieves I think it's safe to assume they are just as skilled as anyone with a "high IO score". I'm not saying it doesn't give any indication but people are actually ridiculous with their score requirements (which makes it hard for people to get score through pugs if they didn't spend all their time running M+ since the expansion came out).

[Kokolums]

Straight up nonsense.

D3 belongs to the best selling video games of all time. OW broke so many records its crazy. Hearthstone is still doing EXTREMLY well. WoW is more than fine too.

Again, just because you don't like the direction these games are going, doesnt mean nobody is.

We can just stop at D3. Absolutely no-one is going to call D3 a success. It sold a ton of copies on release because of how good D2 was. D3 was so bad that they outright cancelled its 2nd xpac and released what work was done for it as a necromancer DLC.

[Clozer]

We can just stop at D3. Absolutely no-one is going to call D3 a success. It sold a ton of copies on release because of how good D2 was. D3 was so bad that they outright cancelled its 2nd xpac and released what work was done for it as a necromancer DLC.

D3 is one of the most sold video games ever created. You can't de-evaluate that fact with your personal hate train on blizzard.

[Ealyssa]

I mean if someone has a low IO score but has tons of Mythic raid achievements / high rated PvP achieves I think it's safe to assume they are just as skilled as anyone with a "high IO score". I'm not saying it doesn't give any indication but people are actually ridiculous with their score requirements (which makes it hard for people to get score through pugs if they didn't spend all their time running M+ since the expansion came out).

I’m in a guild who clear every MM raid before the strong nerfs. Yet 1/3 of the roster isn’t great mm+ players because they dont like it/dont care. Same with a friend who only do pvp. He was 2270 last season in EU alliance. He’s bad at mm+, because he just dont like PVE.

Just being good at wow means shit about knowing the dungeons path, knowing what mob cast what spell and what should be interupted and how (some spells are interupt protected and need a cc). Where and when will the tank make big pulls. Can you blow your CD now ? Or is it tyrannical week and next boss pull is in less than 2 min ?

You cant just guess what to do in mm+, you have to know. Sure a good player can learn. But why should high rated people be the one teaching for free ? Your rio score (and not just the score, but all your stats that come with) not only show your skill level. It shows your knowledge about doing the thing.

And wow clearly being a mechanical « skill » game (you first MM raid kill will be less eaay than your 13th kill of the same boss. Same with any pve repetitive content). Most people will choose random players they dont know based on their previous achievement on that exact content.