View Poll Results: Would you like to have new character models in classic WoW?

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  • Yes

    172 49.00%
  • No

    179 51.00%
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  1. #361
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Sure. And a solution that gives the most people what they want should be the end goal. To me, the gameplay is great and an option to make it look better would make a great game even better.
    And still this is change in gameplay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    This doesn't change fact that appearance (again, if choice) is part of gameplay (wiki):

    Gameplay is the specific way in which players interact with a game (c) but definition is quite general, hence possible options, so (back to first link): Generally, gameplay is considered to be the overall experience of playing a video game excluding factors like graphics and sound. Game mechanics, on the other hand, is the sets of rules in a game that are intended to produce an enjoyable gaming experience.(c) - customization (choice of race, appearance, name, class) is part of game mechanics, then by definition is part of gameplay.

    Well, you can't deny it, just ignore it, and that what you're exactly apparently doing.
    So, as I understand it, there’s really nothing to do for trolls in current moment. I heard there're some discussions about new patch, could be much meal there, you know

    Fortunately, it’s not only more correct, but also easier and cheaper for them not to do this. Useless twist that at one time put an end (along with new models) to participation of many of my friends in this project. And now I could dance on bones of your expectations, but it seems to me somehow very malicious. The only “fair” possibility of such options in game is implementation through customization, but since they never did that, they will have to write mechanism itself almost from scratch... however, this will have nothing to do with Classic, because authenticity of esthetics is part of promise, project's purpose and you can do nothing with it.

    For a change, I will go a little further and say that what they did in WoD was also counterproductive and it would be better if they were engaged in what really hindered success of this game, which wasn't its art style then. The most sad thing here is that it has become just such a factor now for many and they still don’t want to admit and fix it.

    ps. Don't be shy, you aren't the first to leave here with nothing
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-09-24 at 12:18 PM.
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  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    And still this is change in gameplay.
    So, as I understand it, there’s really nothing to do for trolls in current moment. I heard there're some discussions about new patch, could be much meal there, you know

    Fortunately, it’s not only more correct, but also easier and cheaper for them not to do this. Useless twist that at one time put an end (along with new models) to participation of many of my friends in this project. And now I could dance on bones of your expectations, but it seems to me somehow very malicious. The only “fair” possibility of such options in game is implementation through customization, but since they never did that, they will have to write mechanism itself almost from scratch... however, this will have nothing to do with Classic, because authenticity of esthetics is part of promise, project's purpose and you can do nothing with it.

    For a change, I will go a little further and say that what they did in WoD was also counterproductive and it would be better if they were engaged in what really hindered success of this game, which wasn't its art style then. The most sad thing here is that it has become just such a factor now for many and they still don’t want to admit and fix it.

    ps. Don't be shy, you aren't the first to leave here with nothing
    Did... Did you just quote yourself as some sort of "proof" and then try to get dismissive with me? Like... Seriously? You magically prove your point by taking something you said earlier and <boom> clearly you put me in my place?

    Just to clear up a few points:

    Player models Gameplay
    These are entirely different items. Gameplay denotes mechanical differences within the realm of how the game functions. The graphics are simply a layer on top of it that is the interface into the game world.
    Read THIS

    Options Are Optional
    Optional means that the the player has the choice as to whether they can use it or not. You can get cute with wording and syntax all you want, when you break it down and option is an option. You can choose to use it or not. You can enable water effect. Or not. You can choose to have quest text appear all at once. Or not. You can choose to add extra action bars to your screen. Or not. You can choose to use updated player modes. Or not.

    Having the option available, set by default to Classic, does not change your experience in the game one iota. Not at all. You never see the difference. Your gaming experience is completely unchanged. But the experience of those that prefer the new model is improved. If yours is unchanged and the experience of the other is improved, what is there not to like?

  3. #363
    Optional, sure, though would be weird having a high poly character against low poly mobs and terrain.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Optional, sure, though would be weird having a high poly character against low poly mobs and terrain.
    Someone posted a neat comparison, the terrain is pretty much the same with minor changes in lightning

  5. #365
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    - - - snip - - -
    I quoted part where I quoted wiki, no more, no less.
    "Player models ≠ Gameplay" -
    Your link talks about graphics (moreover, not a useful source, but only a private opinion, against which it would be foolish to object, nothing terrible, just an opinion), and I'm talking about choice, as element of gameplay. These are completely different things, comrade. Customization is gameplay part for role-playing game, and it includes not only character's characteristics, but also its appearance too (if it's being provided for by game conditions).
    "Options Are Optional" -
    Option in this case is customization, and “toggle” is graphic setting, and these, as mentioned in links above, are completely different things. All that you can really choose is only about what you are responsible for. And the fact that Blizzard allows you to put your dirty hands on game world customization is an impermissible luxury, at the same time, you don’t have any rights to change someone else’s choice (made by others regarding their private elements in game, and specifically when creating character and developing it (appearance/items/characteristics)) in no way.

    "Default" argument, given all of the above, is the most useless and childish, because if game has an unjust “setting”, it will mean absolutely nothing.

    ps. Anything else?
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-09-24 at 01:19 PM.
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  6. #366
    Elemental Lord Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpharius View Post
    the old models actually look better than the new ones though
    For you perhaps. For others, myself included, they absolutely do not look better than the updated models.

    Most aspects of the old faces were 2D - for example the eyes were textured onto each race's simplistic head mesh, with little squares that popped in and out of the head to simulate blinking, and even the teeth were just painted along the inside of the lips. While there was absolutely a charm to those models (and WoW's art in general), the reality is that they were basically N64 quality in terms of geometry.

    I've grown so accustomed to the detail and expressiveness of the WoD/Legion/BFA models that going back to the old ones in Classic actually makes me cringe a bit. That's not a jab at Classic, as I said those models had their charm, but I don't find them to be better in any way. Say what you will about the current game but I think that the art is the one aspect of it that has just flat-out gotten better, often astronomically so.

    While I fully realize that the model updates weren't perfect, there was no chance they were ever going to be - how people expected that, I'll never know. It would be like expecting RE2 Remake's Claire/Leon to look exactly like they did in the old game but with 2019's detail. That was simply never going to happen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I really don't see the point, I mean the whole reason to play Classic is to see how horrible everything used to be.
    I feel fairly confident in saying that isn't the reason most people play Classic.
    The amount of people who are supposedly over WoW/hate WoW, yet continue to spend every day of their lives whining about it here on the forums, never fails to astound me.

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  7. #367
    personaly dont rly care much, but wouldnt mind having an option for it

  8. #368
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    in terms of geometry.
    These are different models not because something is better or worse, but because they are literally different. That is, there is completely different approach to fundamental geometry of faces and bodies, and it's if not even mention animations, which doesn't have any fundamental restrictions in configuration during conversion process (since repeating old animations with organized sequential transition won't be really difficult). Briefly, but a little more is here. As for the “what they could or could not”, it’s more likely to be a justification, with a proper approach and accuracy this is doable, but I'm afraid no one even tried

    ps. They just did what they did, and then decided, that it's enough, let's call it a day and if something... just let's say that it didn't work.
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  9. #369
    Elemental Lord Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    These are different models not because something is better or worse, but because they are literally different. That is, there is completely different approach to fundamental geometry of faces and bodies, and it's if not even mention animations, which doesn't have any fundamental restrictions in configuration during conversion process (since repeating old animations with organized sequential transition won't be really difficult). Briefly, but a little more is here. As for the “what they could or could not”, it’s more likely to be a justification, with a proper approach and accuracy this is doable, but I'm afraid no one even tried

    ps. They just did what they did, and then decided, that it's enough, let's call it a day and if something... just let's say that it didn't work.
    Except that, for plenty of people, it did work. It worked just fine. If you hate the models, that's fine, that's your business. But it doesn't make you 'right' to dislike them, and it doesn't make those of us who do like them wrong.

    And furthermore it is straight-up bullshit to say 'no one even tried'. That is hyperbolic, nonsensical bullshit. As someone else in this topic already pointed out, they slavishly adhered to the look/proportions/etc of the vanilla models, to the point where they painted themselves into an artistic corner. Literally the opposite of not-trying.

    It is insane to me that people like you decide "I don't like this thing, guess nobody really tried or put forth effort." What an ignorant and narrow-minded way of thinking. The world does not begin and end with your opinion, which is something most people learn around the age of six.
    The amount of people who are supposedly over WoW/hate WoW, yet continue to spend every day of their lives whining about it here on the forums, never fails to astound me.

    Obsession is bad, kids!

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I really don't see the point, I mean the whole reason to play Classic is to see how horrible everything used to be.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I mean I know this is all subjective, but... no. In fact I feel like one of the things holding back the new models from being all they could be is the fact Blizzard felt the need to slavishly recreate the look of the old models, some of which should've just been binned and redesigned from scratch.

    A lot of those models looked crap even at the time. Blizzard's never been exactly cutting edge on graphics.
    All of the old world models have been remade aside from the raid bosses, in BfA and some in Draenor and in Legion. Basically the work has been done as far as NPC and Player models are concerned and would be a simple implementation. I think it is just a matter of time before they shadow drop a high res model option in a phase update.
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  11. #371
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    - - - snip - - -
    I didn't say anything about likes or dislikes. I talked about changes. Why is it so hard to understand? They changed what they didn’t need to even at their own statement (actually, did you read "briefly" link?) It's not about how I liked or didn’t like changes, but about changes were contraindicated in principle and if I didn’t like some stuff before, then, if work done correctly, result should have been the fact that nothing has changed in terms of my attitude to a particular element of geometry or animation. Then and only then work will be considered done perfectly. If you omit some minor preferences in number of polygons, then style and animations could and needed be saved (base animations&colors&geometry).

    Change is my claim! better/worse is relative subjectivity. Here's an example of an article trying to explain general trends if you want to at least somehow objectively talk about "better" or "worse", but even here mostly it talks only about small part of our problem.

    ps. By the way, if think about it, we deviated somewhat from the topic, we should better stop this (because I can make songs and stories along with scientific works about how I hate new models (just see IMHO in my signature))

    "Toggle is violation of gameplay part and there is nothing to discuss here."
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-09-24 at 02:57 PM.
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  12. #372
    only if they update the zones as well, because it doesn't look good with updated models and horrible zone graphics

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    I quoted part where I quoted wiki, no more, no less.
    "Player models ≠ Gameplay" -
    Your link talks about graphics (moreover, not a useful source, but only a private opinion, against which it would be foolish to object, nothing terrible, just an opinion), and I'm talking about choice, as element of gameplay. These are completely different things, comrade. Customization is gameplay part for role-playing game, and it includes not only character's characteristics, but also its appearance too (if it's being provided for by game conditions).
    This is blatantly a false premise on multiple points.

    1) Your argument would only cover RP servers in this case. In NA that amounts to two of the servers for Classic. Shall we have different graphical options for RP servers than for other types? Even though I play on an RP server, I'm fine with that. So the toggle is available on PVE and PVP servers, but not RP or RPPVP servers. Thanks!

    2) It's still not gameplay as it still does not affect anything on your own screen and only on the screen of another. You cannot say that something affects gameplay if you remain completely oblivious to it. If you never know that something is different, simply because it is occuring on the screen of somebody else, it is quite simply not a gameplay element.

    "Options Are Optional" -
    Option in this case is customization, and “toggle” is graphic setting, and these, as mentioned in links above, are completely different things. All that you can really choose is only about what you are responsible for. And the fact that Blizzard allows you to put your dirty hands on game world customization is an impermissible luxury, at the same time, you don’t have any rights to change someone else’s choice (made by others regarding their private elements in game, and specifically when creating character and developing it (appearance/items/characteristics)) in no way.
    I already can. I can already alter my settings to change what models look like. I can alter what the world around me looks like. I can change the view distance. I can change the interface. I can change the way other characters player portraits look like. What you see on your screen may look absolutely nothing like what I see on my screen. And that's just it. Your "rights" to the elements of your character end on your screen. Anything on my screen is mine to view how I see fit. You have complete control of your screen, and I have complete control of mine. That is fair and equitable. You having complete control of your screen and also control of mine is absolutely not.

    That's why it is and option, the same as any other graphical choice.
    "Default" argument, given all of the above, is the most useless and childish, because if game has an unjust “setting”, it will mean absolutely nothing.
    Which is obviously a ludicrous counter. There is nothing "unjust" about changing the graphics on my screen.

    ps. Anything else?
    Not really. You haven't actually offered anything yet, so I have low expectations though.

  14. #374
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    You haven't actually offered anything yet, so I have low expectations though.
    So you

    Game doesn't care what kind of server it is, game should be solid with solid design, which automatically reckons you to making errors of this kind.

    Oh, what a limited person you are *shaking head sneeringly*... We don't talking about what's on my screen and moreover, what’s on your screen, but about someone can devalue my choice, take away my part of gameplay. Can you read or what? It's written above, that this discussion has nothing to do with graphic settings. This is about choosing as part of gameplay (if game has such), and appearance is directly element of character customization, this is how it officially was during vanilla, this is how it continues to be on retail. Where did you see such settings? There is nothing like this. All that you can do won't magically turn new models into old and vice versa (doesn't matter what you'd change, but model will still look alike ), so don’t tell fairy tales here, you can't and therefore you're here to whine about it

    About server “settings” ...it's also written above, it looks ridiculous, world doesn't seem to be holistic and logic after this, and we were against it, and they added it anyway, but this just doesn't justify anything that they could add more. This at least isn't part of character’s customization, literally, it doesn't affect my choice, unlike models' toggle. They know this very well, and are well aware of possible consequences, as well as of absolutely insignificant amount of benefit from such change (and this, if it will be able to cover damage from its negative consequences, which they felt on themself starting from WoD).

    Although to whom am I writing here... you don’t even read anything, you simply deny everything without looking at it. With same success, we can have long and tedious argue about 2x2 result.

    Let me simplify your task, I’ll torture you a little bit, until you get tired of it in the same way... do you want this? I can do this, I really am.

    ps. I understand that you would like to object with something substantial, but you can't, so you just only deny everything. Let's see how much patience for this you have. I’ve been talking about this for almost 5 years, but what is your experience?
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I want you to see exactly what I want you to, and I won't tolerate anything else
    No, customization is part of gameplay, and this is fact regardless of server type, and your weak and awkward arguments won't be able to change priority of character’s owner in choosing its appearance. We're still talking about gameplay here, not about graphical settings.

    Try harder! Go-go-go! Also stupidity kind of "It doesn't affect you" was beaten lo-o-o-ong ago here (not mine), read if you dare.

    By the way, “I don’t understand” argument ceases to work when there was rather long discussion before it and both participants are clearly aware of each other’s position. Dude, this card won't work anymore, too many of you made this mistake already

    ps. So, at least I made you shut up for a little time. That's good and worth the effort, this was probably all I needed
    (some kind too fast, I'm a little disappointed)
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-09-26 at 12:23 PM.
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  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    So you

    Game doesn't care what kind of server it is, game should be solid with solid design, which automatically reckons you to making errors of this kind.
    Of course it does. If your argument is that something ruins an RP experience, well, that applies only to RP servers. That shouldn't be hard to grasp. RP servers are where naming conventions are enforced. So RP servers would be the only place that "graphical standards" would be enforced.

    Oh, what limited you are *shaking head sneeringly*... We don't talking about what's on my screen and moreover, what’s on your screen, but about someone can devalue my choice, take away my part of gameplay. Can you read or what? It's written above, that this discussion has nothing to do with graphic settings. This is about choosing as part of gameplay (if game has such), and appearance is directly element of character customization, this is how it officially was during vanilla, this is how it continues to be in retail. Where did you see such settings? There is nothing like this. All that you can do won't magically turn new models into old and vice versa, so don’t tell fairy tales here, you can't and therefore you are here to whine about it
    Of course it does. It is a graphical setting. That's exactly what it is. You can try and worm your way around it by claiming it is other things, but it is a graphical setting. A toggle. A switch. An option. It is no more or no less than that. It is not a gameplay element. At all. Every single game review, design doc or theory will tell you exactly that.

    And yes. Go to your graphical setting right now. You can change how the game looks. So that what you see on your screen is not what I see on my screen. I can install addons that change my UI, change character portraits, change elements of what is or is not present on my screen. I can lower the graphical settings so that your character looks different than what you see. I can do all of this right now. This is simply one more toggle, on more graphical option that I could have available. And no matter how you try to spin it, it would not change your experience at all because you would never even know it.

    About server “settings” ...it's also written above, it looks ridiculous, world doesn't seem to be holistic and logic after this, and we were against it, and they added it anyway, but this just doesn't justify anything that they could add more. This at least isn't part of character’s customization, literally, it doesn't affect my choice, unlike models' toggle. They know this very well, and are well aware of possible consequences, as well as of absolutely insignificant amount of benefit from such change (and this, if it will be able to cover damage from its negative consequences, which they felt on themself starting from WoD).
    And this is none of your concern. It doesn't affect you. Leave this choice up to the individual playing their game. If that's what they like, let them have it. It doesn't affect you and it makes them happy.

    Although to whom am I writing here... you don’t even read anything, you simply deny everything without looking at it. With same success, we can have long and tedious argue about 2x2 result.
    Because trying to decipher what you write is a trying and time consuming task. I get that English isn't your first language, but being snide and snarky when your post contains very little information that actually makes sense is ridiculous.

    Let me simplify your task, I’ll torture you a little bit, until you get tired of it in the same way... do you want this? I can do this, I really am.

    ps. I understand that you would like to object with something substantial, but you can't, so you just only deny everything. Let's see how much patience for this you have.
    I already have dude. You can't put together an argument to actually say why you should be able to control what's on my screen. Your argument basically amounts to "I want you to see exactly what I want you to, and I won't tolerate anything else".

    You don't actually have an argument because your basic premise is horribly flawed. You are completely unwilling to compromise on something that has zero impact on your game, and that's beyond ludicrous. If you want to keep arguing, be my guest, but it's really difficult to understand what you're trying to say.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    For you perhaps. For others, myself included, they absolutely do not look better than the updated models.

    Most aspects of the old faces were 2D - for example the eyes were textured onto each race's simplistic head mesh, with little squares that popped in and out of the head to simulate blinking, and even the teeth were just painted along the inside of the lips. While there was absolutely a charm to those models (and WoW's art in general), the reality is that they were basically N64 quality in terms of geometry.

    I've grown so accustomed to the detail and expressiveness of the WoD/Legion/BFA models that going back to the old ones in Classic actually makes me cringe a bit. That's not a jab at Classic, as I said those models had their charm, but I don't find them to be better in any way. Say what you will about the current game but I think that the art is the one aspect of it that has just flat-out gotten better, often astronomically so.

    While I fully realize that the model updates weren't perfect, there was no chance they were ever going to be - how people expected that, I'll never know. It would be like expecting RE2 Remake's Claire/Leon to look exactly like they did in the old game but with 2019's detail. That was simply never going to happen.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I feel fairly confident in saying that isn't the reason most people play Classic.

    To be quite honest my biggest issue with the new models is that I often don't recognize the characters I made. They feel different now compared to the image of them I had for years. New models also felt very rushed especially blood elf females who got every hair style ruined. I also don't like how the new troll hair looks together with the model. In fact my biggest issue with the new models are beards and hair.

    That being said, I recently played metal gear solid peace walker again and I would also say that Paz for example looked better there than in mgs v. Graphics aren't everything and certainly not the amount of polygons the character has. What matters more is the way it's presented and I think the new model lack that in the same vein Paz from MGS V lacks the presentation of her in Peace Walker.
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  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpharius View Post
    They managed to ruin every hair option for every race. Ever looked at the hair of a fem belf? Its all ponytails


    Likewise orc beards are bad and so are most human hairstyles
    The old hair was a bunch of god-awful pixelated straw glued to flat planes, ick. I can't believe that's the part you miss.
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  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Yes, I see you'd rather whine and insult me than actually address my post

    The point I was making is not a "no true scotsman", but rather pointing out that if the other guy is going to completely forego Classic because it doesn't have HD models, then he probably wasn't interested in the game to begin with.

    It's like refusing to attend a baseball game because they don't sell your favorite brand of hotdog there. Just.......what? If you care THAT MUCH about what hotdogs are being sold at the stadium that you will refuse to watch the game because of it, then you probably don't care about the game to begin with.

    And likewise, if you care THAT MUCH that Classic does not have "HD models" that you will refuse to play Classic, then you probably weren't going to play the game in the first place, because anyone who actually likes Classic would already be playing it.

    Of course, you're probably just going to claim that this post is another "no true scotsman" because you're rather insult and belittle than actually debate, so I'll just go ahead and preemptively add you to my ignore list.
    So, pointing out fallacies is now insulting? Interesting.

    Also, graphics do matter, specially considering this is a RPG and immersion has a strong component in the role-playing part. And I can't take my character seriously when I see her with those dead-fish eyes, with no expressions whatsoever. I'm sorry, but there are things where you can't go back, and I can't go back to the old models because of how mannequin-like they are.

    I loved Super Mario Bros 3, for example, but when I go back to play it, I play the enhanced remake on the SNES because it looks and sounds much better than the NES original.

  19. #379
    Classic model:


    Modern model:


    I honestly don't know how anyone could think the Classic model looks better.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Optional, sure, though would be weird having a high poly character against low poly mobs and terrain.
    I don't know how many times I have to say it (not shitting on you), all the old world models are updated in retail WoW, every last one except for some bosses in which have entirely custom base models like Princess Theradras but no one really cares about those, they still fit in fine.

    The only thing they might have to do is update certain skin colors to match some that might be missing like Basilisk colors for example etc, but honestly that is not a huge undertaking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpharius View Post
    To be quite honest my biggest issue with the new models is that I often don't recognize the characters I made. They feel different now compared to the image of them I had for years. New models also felt very rushed especially blood elf females who got every hair style ruined. I also don't like how the new troll hair looks together with the model. In fact my biggest issue with the new models are beards and hair.

    That being said, I recently played metal gear solid peace walker again and I would also say that Paz for example looked better there than in mgs v. Graphics aren't everything and certainly not the amount of polygons the character has. What matters more is the way it's presented and I think the new model lack that in the same vein Paz from MGS V lacks the presentation of her in Peace Walker.
    Then you keep the setting off and problem solved ya? Just because it is an option doesn't mean you have to use it
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