Are DHs overrated in m+?

[Soikona]

So nearly all things that can be done by other classes except the 5% magic debuff? Except most of classes get that "amazing aoe" for longer than 3 seconds (eyebeam channel time).

AFAIK, no class can do all of them except for DH.

[Faesroll]

So nearly all things that can be done by other classes except the 5% magic debuff? Except most of classes get that "amazing aoe" for longer than 3 seconds (eyebeam channel time).

You know eye beam isn't the only AoE ability they have, right?

[kek280]

DH can do lot of tricks with one of their aoe spells, forgot the name of the spell, the one that gives them 100% dodge for a second while they're flipping around, it allows them to soak every Deadeye on the last boss in Tol Dagot for example which allows the party to plant themselves on a corner and never have to move, and GREATLY reduces damage on tyrannical allowing the healer to breathe, pretty big, you should feel bad if you are a DH and don't abuse this spell.

[Fatel]

:/ hellllllllllllp

Havent had an issue with invite - I swapped from my hunter to DH as my M+ toon. I find it way more enjoyable

[Kaver]

So nearly all things that can be done by other classes except the 5% magic debuff? Except most of classes get that "amazing aoe" for longer than 3 seconds (eyebeam channel time).

Which ONE other class can do all those things? This is ONE class that can do all those things. Even if you remove the 5 % magic debuff it is still a crazy tool kit for ONE class to have. And he didn't even mention the AOE stun or Darkness (Group/AOE defensive). DH is certainly not overrated in M+. It is a fantastic spec. If you compare the toolkit of a DH to the toolkit of a Fury warrior you will fall of your chair laughing.

You're the first person I ever hear complaining about DH AOE and clearly you are not the best player in the world if you think DH AOE only consist of Eye Beam :P

[Mardux]

Which ONE other class can do all those things? This is ONE class that can do all those things. Even if you remove the 5 % magic debuff it is still a crazy tool kit for ONE class to have. And he didn't even mention the AOE stun or Darkness (Group/AOE defensive). DH is certainly not overrated in M+. It is a fantastic spec. If you compare the toolkit of a DH to the toolkit of a Fury warrior you will fall of your chair laughing.

You're the first person I ever hear complaining about DH AOE and clearly you are not the best player in the world if you think DH AOE only consist of Eye Beam :P

Any chance you could point out where i said another class can do all of those things? Im guessing no, seeing as how i didnt say it. Not that that would matter to you.

I also didnt complain about dh aoe, but oh well. Tats just another thing that wouldn't matter to you.

[Ange]

One of the benefits with very easy specs like Havoc or Outlaw is that the average player will do well. Both specs are zero-prep burst AoE centric and thats all you need for lower keys anyways. Both are great with spread pulls, don't need positional requirements or cooldown centric pulls.

Leech is great if your heal is lacking basic performance issues, since thats just about HPS. If you need real healing or real immunitys there are better classes and specs out there, even a DPS DK can single-target heal themselfs for 50-70k HPS, thats not something you could ever do with leech. If you got a dog healer in grievous affix weeks, who doesnt know a thing about affixes - YES get as many Havocs in your group as you can...

I don't think Havoc is that huge in even a fortified 10+. The trash kill time is long enough for ramp-up specs to catch up to the initial burst and IRIS/BLOOD pulls every second time are allready the norm in PUG's so there is even less opportunity to shine with burst AoE.

And if you got BLOOD/Outlaw or BLOOD/Unholy pulls every 1.5mins there is nothing you can do to compete with real huge AoE peaks from those specs in big pulls, while still maintaning similar ST DPS as Havoc.

R.IO rating inflation from the community perception is just as bad as with any rogue spec. More invites into push-groups means over time just a better rating. There is nothing wrong with that, since its driven by the commuity's META idolization. But if you are leading a PUG and you have to choose a player in your endless list of 2000/440 DPS, a DH or Rogue is expected to have 300-400 more R.IO rating for a comperable player experience.

[Kaver]

Any chance you could point out where i said another class can do all of those things? Im guessing no, seeing as how i didnt say it. Not that that would matter to you.

You didn't and that's the point. It makes no sense for you to say that other specs in combination can do the same as a DH. You need to compare ONE spec to ONE spec.

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I also didnt complain about dh aoe, but oh well. Tats just another thing that wouldn't matter to you.

"Except most of classes get that "amazing aoe" for longer than 3 seconds (eyebeam channel time)."

That sounds like complaining to me. Also you are very wrong as the amazing AOE of DH consist of more than just Eye Beam.

And now you are complaining about my post.

You whine a lot.

[HoodKazekage]

Our burst is insane as well as AoE attacks. I've been toping all the charts in my guild and i'm only 430 ilvl

[Mardux]

They require minimal effort to play effectively
Have a strong group CD with darkness
Can cheese mechanics with blade dance
Insane survivability with ridiculous self healing and a strong defensive on a short CD
High burst, decent sustain, both on AoE and ST
AoE stun
Single target stun
Imprison

1: agree
2: only if more than one person procs it
3: agree
4: self healing is only ridiculous on aoe, it's solid at best on ST and agree that blur can be strong
5: again, on aoe. ST burst is on par with most other classes unless specifically talented for aoe, in which ST suffers heavily. If talented for ST/cleave, aoe is on par with other classes.
6: ok? A short duration stun that is usually negated by DR because the duration is so short?
7: wow? A ST stun that has to be talented into and is a dps loss (fury cost of their DR'ed Nova or second charge/slow on glaive) if not utilizd extremely well many times throughout the run.
8: a cc tool.

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You didn't and that's the point. It makes no sense for you to say that other specs in combination can do the same as a DH. You need to compare ONE spec to ONE spec.

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"Except most of classes get that "amazing aoe" for longer than 3 seconds (eyebeam channel time)."

That sounds like complaining to me. Also you are very wrong as the amazing AOE of DH consist of more than just Eye Beam.

And now you are complaining about my post.

You whine a lot.

Wasn't whining either. But it seems like anyone who disagrees with you is "whining" so there's no point in responding to you further. Have a nice weekend and enjoy your whining about dh.

[Kaver]

But it seems like anyone who disagrees with you is "whining"

But we don't disagree at all. We both believe you were comparing the utility of one single spec to the utility of multiple specs combined. And this is of course not a fair comparison.

[unlockedz]

currently from what i know depending on how you're geared aoe build pulls ahead of mainly ST(demon blades) at least on SIms by a very low margin, as proof you can see logs on the last raid with people using that build on ST bosses.
there are 2 good ST builds and one of them is very good on AOE as well.
everything he said is true, we're way better at surviving on s3 with that build single target or not.
blind fury is still better probably because you get the full initial burst on all the mobs pulled where with demonic appetite you may use it again with less mobs left at least in my experience, but survivability is no joke.

[monkaW]

In a high skill ceiling scenario (where everyone know how to perform and use their toolkit to the max) they are overrated, would rather go full physical team with ring of peace from WW as additional CDs.

In a skill floor situation they're good because its way too easy to perform well as DH, i think my cat could probably parse purple if i attach some keys on his feet.

Basically if you're sorrounded by monkeys (usually in M+1 to M+15 range) always pick DH over other DPS if you didnt lack brez or shroud.

[szandos]

In a skill floor situation they're good because its way too easy to perform well as DH, i think my cat could probably parse purple if i attach some keys on his feet.

Basically if you're sorrounded by monkeys (usually in M+1 to M+15 range) always pick DH over other DPS if you didnt lack brez or shroud.

This.

Their utility combined with the ease of play means that even the worst pug DH you can find will do okay, as opposed to the same person playing another class.

[monkaW]

What exactly do you mean by this? Do you believe m+15 is so easy that monkeys can time it? Because it really isnt that simple.

15 is the fine spot where you can do a single pull everytime and still timed the key, above that you start to do some prep and strategize the route.

[Shakana]

Rigth now it seems the meta for melee dps is rogue, dh or gtfo.

I ubderstand why rogues are favoured, but what's so special about DHs (talking dps spex here)? Their dps seems to be on par with pretty much all melee, they have aoe stun, but so do enh and ww. Feral and DKs bring combat ress, rets can offheal pretty good. Enh has better interrupts and can purge without cd.

It's not a rant, I'm just trying to genuinely understand why DHs are conaider better picks for melee spots than everyone else (except rogues).

Needed on party - chaos brand.
Rogues - skip stuff

In fights - huge aoe like rogues.
They survive alot, when other classes can't survive. Even tho if you use an eye beam on a situation of gtfo or die, they will die, because eye beam stop us from moving but intelligent ones keep a bit at distance since eye beam has a huge range anyway. Better cheating and surviving death than having a combat rez.

And they have a burst that is really good to help push down bosses, even tho it cannot be consistent during a long term fight. Has interrupts, has 2 dispels, 1 single and one mass and a mass stun and a powerful defensive. Self healing comes slow but helps healers alot. overall is a good meele. Both rogue and dhs are good meeles. Funny is that how on top of m+ there's actual WW monks and i barely see them signing up on mine. And rarely see a dh as dps on top m+ world. lol Unless it's a vengeance dh. And not havoc.

Dhs with a good gear, azerite traits, aoe traits, right essences, they can even do more damage and maintain that damage that i was talking about in a long term fight. And/or they go just purely aoe and give less damage on bosses, just to help complete the trash faster. Depending on the dungeon. For example mechagon dungeon is awful for all meeles as far as i know and dh is nonetheless bad to it as others. Not impossible but not a favoring dungeon for a dh.

[Buffyyu]

Dh burst is pretty powerful and tbh they are defo higher on dps than a feral or enhc especially when it comes to aoe, cooldowns are very short, its a very easy spec so hard to find a terrible DH. And ofc the 5% buff to magic dmg is non existent anywhere else

[OokOok]

"On par with every melee dps" seems you don't do much M+ or you're basing this off raid parses on 5min boss fights.
M+ isn't about sustained DPS, it's about burst dps. Trash is what takes the longest in M+, even on Fortified. Trash is what's going to wipe a group, even on a boss if 2 dps or a dps and the healer die you can pull through and kill the boss with CDs
So with that being the case burst dmg > sustained dmg, it's why warlocks are trash in M+. DH also has the best mobility in the game so you know unlike most melee they won't have any issues with anti melee mechanics or sanguine drops ect,
They bring a magic debuff which really isn't a big deal considering most groups are all melee.
AOE stun which once again is huge for trash
But mainly it's their god mode burst dps

[KBDK]

Suppose it's because of the self-heal, they're very tanky, their burst it quite awesome, they are mobile, the 5% magic debuff is also a consideration. I mean, I really do get why DH is part of the meta these days :-)

[CrawlFromThePit]

Rigth now it seems the meta for melee dps is rogue, dh or gtfo.

I ubderstand why rogues are favoured, but what's so special about DHs (talking dps spex here)? Their dps seems to be on par with pretty much all melee, they have aoe stun, but so do enh and ww. Feral and DKs bring combat ress, rets can offheal pretty good. Enh has better interrupts and can purge without cd.

It's not a rant, I'm just trying to genuinely understand why DHs are conaider better picks for melee spots than everyone else (except rogues).

There's not enough stuff in the game that requires purging or interrupt with a lower cooldown dans the normal melee ones. Offheal is also absolutely useless unless your group sucks but we're talking about the meta here which means high end, not your random pug in which case you can make a group with 3 ret pallies or enhance it doesn't matter. As for the Brez, well, you're supposed to have a druid heal anyway cuz that's the meta and now that brez share cooldown with the group blizzard entirely removed the fun of having more than 1 brez in your team.

DH have good reliable burst that most classes don't have, they also provide the 5% magic dmg debuff (which I think is slightly overrated because the majority of your dmg in a meta team is physical anyway, unless you bring a DK). There's just not enough in the design of the game right now that really makes other classes shine, their utilities are meaningless most of the time.