1. #35481
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Spooky scary dancing skeletons for Necrolords?



    For Alpha/Beta? Source please?
    for the release date of the game we've gotten it in april twice now.
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...ives-august-14 BFA
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...urns-August-30 Legion
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  2. #35482
    The Undying Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The game has also changed since Vanilla in that you no longer need to do massive amounts of grind all the time. The grind is now almost entirely optional, with the few things that require grind usually requiring a minimum time investment that can almost be entirely consumed by whatever content you desire, like Azerite and raids. Or only requiring a once and done quest that then gives you the option to continue the grind, like the legendary cloak.

    In Vanilla the grind was the bread and butter of the game. Blizzard realized that this was an archaic way to design the game, so they removed it, this however meant that the game was very anemic, and since creating enough content to fully satisfy everyone is impossible for a game like this they ensured that players can put in as much time as they want in the game and still find a comfortable niche.



    Not sure why you think the RNG is the problem with corruption, if anything you should be angry at the tuning. From what i have sen of it in action it seems like every 30-35 corruption leads to an average of 5% DPS increase. teh 20-30% you mentioned before either comes from the traits before they were tuned. Either that or you have an incredibly weak character who does terrible DPS.
    I think the grind in vanilla was and still is absurd but it was just mashed ideas that really weren't good. I mean sure they would keep you occupied and such but is it even fun at all. I don't think so.

    Farming for resist gear? Yeah uhh no thanks....

    Making sure your defense weapon skill are up to par? Yeah.... ummm seems like a waste of time, more so after max level.


    I could go on but there are ways to keep content lively but World Quests aren't necessarily doing that. Cause once you're done with them you're done for the day.
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  3. #35483
    We will know when Shadowlands releases in April. Imo, the very end of April.
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  4. #35484
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I think the grind in vanilla was and still is absurd but it was just mashed ideas that really weren't good. I mean sure they would keep you occupied and such but is it even fun at all. I don't think so.

    Farming for resist gear? Yeah uhh no thanks....

    Making sure your defense weapon skill are up to par? Yeah.... ummm seems like a waste of time, more so after max level.


    I could go on but there are ways to keep content lively but World Quests aren't necessarily doing that. Cause once you're done with them you're done for the day.
    I don't really think there is a way to make world quests "fun". What you can do is make the surrounding systems more fun, add interesting movement abilities, random NPCs, and events. As we stand we have to accept that world quests and dailies will at some level be tedious.

  5. #35485
    The Lightbringer Pennem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    If you can't work out that Corruption is a test for a Titanforging replacement in Shadowlands then I don't know what to tell you.

    It's hilarious too. Since it is 1000 times worse than Titanforging in every way.


    "We hear you. You don't like Titanforging and RNG and the way it devalues loot"

    Proceeds to invent a system that is worse in every way and provides 20-30% damage boosts on a single item. I'll never take my 420 iLevel Infinite Stars pants off. even though I have a 460 piece sitting in my bags.
    If you look back to my previous post before that one I state that we're not going to see Corruption as is dropping from 9.0 content. I already know they're using it as an experiment for how they want to handle a loot system in Shadowlands where tf/wf will (most likely) not exist.

    Using corruption as an experiment =/= we will be using corruption in shadowlands content as the replacement for titanforge. Stop being blinded by rage that you misread what is being said.

  6. #35486
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Azerite traits on items are predetermined, it's just normal gear drop RNG. Weekly chests will be improved in SL, with choosing different, smaller loot pools. Islands drops are irrelevant. Don't blow RNG issues out of proportion. And what class/spec do you play, if "90% of my damage is passive random shit that I have zero control over"?
    I play an Unholy DK and my best Essence is Vision of Perfect. Causing Ghouls to randomly spawn. Then the others are a random haste proc(focusing iris) and a random stat buff(lifeblood) and a random burst of damage(deaths).

    Then I have a random STR buff and a random mastery buff. Another random haste buff. Another random STR buff. Another random haste buff. Also random chance to spawn a magus ghoul.

    Like. You're really going to try and argue that my completely garbage Azerite passive procs aren't RNG?



    Azerite traits may be predetermined but there is no reliable way to farm them. The ones in the raid have the wrong traits. Sure I can get residium but all that buys me is a..... RNG lootbox slot machine pull. To get a predetermined piece it takes 10 weeks.

    In older expansions I could kill a boss I knew had the set piece I wanted on it. Or I could farm points or tokens to get it anyway.

  7. #35487
    The Lightbringer Pennem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    They did say at Blizzcon to Preach, that at that time they did not know how the TF system will look in SL. It would all depend on Corruption performance. But it's safe to say that old school TF wont come back.
    Yup agree, and that bit about corruption I knew. I already know it's a sort of experiment for how they want to handle the loot system differently in SL.

    Nowhere I've read though or heard has said anything like "Corruption is the system going to be used in Shadowlands content" which some posters here are stating.

  8. #35488
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The game has also changed since Vanilla in that you no longer need to do massive amounts of grind all the time. The grind is now almost entirely optional, with the few things that require grind usually requiring a minimum time investment that can almost be entirely consumed by whatever content you desire, like Azerite and raids. Or only requiring a once and done quest that then gives you the option to continue the grind, like the legendary cloak.

    In Vanilla the grind was the bread and butter of the game. Blizzard realized that this was an archaic way to design the game, so they removed it, this however meant that the game was very anemic, and since creating enough content to fully satisfy everyone is impossible for a game like this they ensured that players can put in as much time as they want in the game and still find a comfortable niche.



    Not sure why you think the RNG is the problem with corruption, if anything you should be angry at the tuning. From what i have sen of it in action it seems like every 30-35 corruption leads to an average of 5% DPS increase. teh 20-30% you mentioned before either comes from the traits before they were tuned. Either that or you have an incredibly weak character who does terrible DPS.
    That isn't even remotely true.

    Now there is checklist type content that you need to do if you want to contribute well in raids.

    Before you just had to get gear and maybe some gold for consumables.

    Now?

    AP, Azerite with perfect traits, Multiple insane Essence grinds, RNG Corruption traits, Island cap weekly, Mythic+ chest weekly, Conquest weekly, Cloak upgrade in Vision, Dailies for new Essence in Uldum/Vale, Farm Coaslescing Visions.

    These are "mandatory" if you want to perform better.

    Don't try to argue insane amounts of checklist content hasn't been added to the game.



    In WotLK when sub numbers were at their peak?

    Just RNG gear drops and a badge currency you could farm to buy deterministic pieces of loot. Seemed to work fine hey?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    If you look back to my previous post before that one I state that we're not going to see Corruption as is dropping from 9.0 content. I already know they're using it as an experiment for how they want to handle a loot system in Shadowlands where tf/wf will (most likely) not exist.

    Using corruption as an experiment =/= we will be using corruption in shadowlands content as the replacement for titanforge. Stop being blinded by rage that you misread what is being said.
    Their "test" system is worse than the previous system in every conceivable way. They claimed they were listening to feedback and then implemented a far more RNG heavy system in it's place.

    They added multiple extra layers of RNG and stupidly powerful items that go directly against what their OWN philosophy is - "You shouldn't be confused about whether an iLevel upgrade is actually an upgrade".

    Ion is either a pathological liar or an actual monkey.

    You decide.


  9. #35489
    The Lightbringer Pennem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I don't really think there is a way to make world quests "fun". What you can do is make the surrounding systems more fun, add interesting movement abilities, random NPCs, and events. As we stand we have to accept that world quests and dailies will at some level be tedious.
    While there's some level of tedium with WQs. I actually look forward to the ones that are actual mini-games not consisting of combat (so the tortollan dailies/jumping jellies/kirin tor puzzles/barrels etc).

    I think for a game where we're doing combat for 90% of the time for the vast majority of commonly played combat it is refreshing to get wqs that aren't so heavily combat related.

    The thing is I think that certain wqs could just use some tuning, for instance it's super quick to finish the "kill this dude" wqs and Blizzard has acknowledged that's what most players do. Then why not tune the other wqs to require less filling of a bar, or less "kill x/10 dudes, stomp x/20 things, also kill 1 elite dude" things? Lower some of the numbers of the more tedious wqs / make them more rewarding and more people will spread out to do those.

    They literally just did such a thing with the 8.3 dailies where they increased the rep and rewards because their data most likely showed not many people were bothering with them (you had media figures like wowhead initially stating no point in doing them for coalescing visions etc).

    So since they've admitted which wqs people prefer (kill 1 elite) and I'm sure they know it's because it gets done quickly. Then just make the other wqs done quickly too. Seems like a no-brainer.

    My friend said it's weird that the devs feel the need to "trick players" into continuing to play the game for a long time (we're talking about the rng on rng on rng loot drops here) when it feels like the more common sentiment is "ok now that I am done with this activity for the week I can focus on another activity in the game".

    Maybe there is a portion of the playerbase that only plays for certain content and then unsubs or quits or whatever, but nothing's going to keep those people around because WoW itself is designed around having a bunch of different activities to do and its the players onus if they wanna do them. They even talked about this before too, where I believe Ion stated they sort of want to reward the players who do all forms of content a little more over those that only stick to one.


    Bah, it's just crazy to me how often they let out they know how most of the playerbase is feeling yet continue to make design decisions that appear to not take the common sentiment into account. They have a severe case of monkey-pawing things needlessly.

  10. #35490
    [QUOTE=DemonDays;52093668]

    In WotLK when sub numbers were at their peak?

    Just RNG gear drops and a badge currency you could farm to buy deterministic pieces of loot. Seemed to work fine hey?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hell yeah!
    But they wanted more, like if 12 million subs wasn't enough. Fck capitalism and those sociopaths who design game elements via excel.

    BfA would've been really good if a multi-tiered badge system was implemented.
    And maybe let's get rid of this "new patch = gear reset" shitshow where top raiders forced to do splits with 7alts, grinding AZERITE FROM PREVIOUS RAIDS TO SCRAP FOR RESIDUM??
    GTFO

    Back "in the day", top-end raiders DID play the game 24/7 just like now, but didn't NEED to do splits, farm residuum, and.. to be honest.. We were ALL tilted when Nefarian was defeated with a lots of druids, but now?
    Cloth/leather splits? How is this even possible ESPECIALLY when the design direction is.. oh, let me remember: to make classes DIFFERENT because they were too much alike? How are they different now if you can make a 30-man raid with 25 mages?

    Blizzard did take a massive shit on it's most successful revenue source, absolutely disgusting.
    A massive (12-14 boss) raid every 5-6 months, and maybe 2-3 little 3-5 boss raids every year. 7-10 new 5-man every 2-3 years.

    And they would have been golden.
    Nope, they decided to reinvent the wheel and guess what, its a disaster.

  11. #35491
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    That isn't even remotely true.

    Now there is checklist type content that you need to do if you want to contribute well in raids.

    Before you just had to get gear and maybe some gold for consumables.

    Now?

    AP, Azerite with perfect traits, Multiple insane Essence grinds, RNG Corruption traits, Island cap weekly, Mythic+ chest weekly, Conquest weekly, Cloak upgrade in Vision, Dailies for new Essence in Uldum/Vale, Farm Coaslescing Visions.
    This line here is so wrong it honestly borders on parody, this is what i would say if i was trying to make someone sound stupid for saying Vanilla didnt have grinds.

    You need AP, but if you are raiding you get quite a lot of AP, not a massive amount, but enough to manage a sensible baseline in comparision to the rest of the raid.
    You do not need perfect Azerite traits unless you are a bleeding-edge raider who needs to squeeze every 0.1% DPS wherever they can.
    None of the Essence grinds are "insane". They used to be fairly annoying, but then they nerfed it. Getting 3 essences takes basically no time, and 1 of them will even become legendary quality just by passive AP grind.
    Corruptions are RNG, sure. But everyone gets what is a fairly decent corruption from the bracers, doing M+ gets you a free corrupted item each week, and the raid drops weapons with guaranteed corruptions.
    Capping islands is only necessary if you are, again, the kind of bleeding edge raider whose every free moment in a raid tier is spent getting ready for the race.
    M+ chest is far from necessary, if you do not enjoy it you can just as easily ignore it and your DPS won't suffer a massive blow in the grand scheme of things.
    Conquest weekly is just the same as M+, only needed if you only feel validated by your ilvl, and even then i have not gotten a useable item from conquest ever in WoW, and i still reliably place at the top of DPS meters.
    The only part of the cloak that is mandatory is the cloak itself, and that is a one and done thing, you can even skip most of it on alts.
    Coalescing visions is also only necessary for upgrading the cloak.
    Finally you get teh initial essence from doing the cloak quest, getting better essences is a grind, sure. But it also isnt necessary unless you want it to be.

    The game has always worked teh same way. If you want to do good DPS you do the nominal amount of grind each week. If you want to do great DPS you do more grind, and if you want to do the kind of DPS that gets you into bleeding edge raiding guilds then you grind all day and theorycraft.
    The only difference between then and now is that there are several barriers of entry. If you just want ot raid then you barely need to do much more than log in. If you want to do raiding at the highest level then you need to work for it. In Vanilla you had one option if you wanted to raid, and that was to grind. Whether that meant farming consumables, resist gear or attunements. At least now the grind is optional.

  12. #35492
    Mechagnome Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    Why do you feel sorry for people who like current WoW? Different people, different tastes. I for example hate classic WoW with a passion and would stop playing if they changed the game back to a classic experience. Doesn't mean that I like every design decision made in the past few years. But now that we have classic both "camps" can play the game they like without interfering.
    Curious, what do you not like about Classic WoW?

  13. #35493
    The Undying Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I don't really think there is a way to make world quests "fun". What you can do is make the surrounding systems more fun, add interesting movement abilities, random NPCs, and events. As we stand we have to accept that world quests and dailies will at some level be tedious.
    I'm saying the way they give them out to you is so limited and I'd rather be having more to do in that regard to endgame stuff then just filling those WQ's up and be done. I'm not a fan of that and this isn't BFA's only fault, Legion suffered from that to.


    Also please don't try and say somehow Wrath's gear aquisition was better. The community LOVED to bitch and moan about welfare gear and such, good grief it was terrible. I don't personally care but that was a big criticism back then. I am not gonna mind the RNG titanforging stuff(Cause me personally). I just mind when the stats on it aren't what I want and I can't control it to give me the stats I want.


    If I could do that I would not care so much (Example: Weapon A is a sword it has Haste and Crit, thats what I want and that may change in Shadowlands. Weapon B is an axe that has Crit and Mastery, while nice crit mastery is kinda pointless for me since its alrady super high).


    So yeah...if it seems like I'm asking for reforging coming back, I am. Yes yes I know people will continue to go on Wowhead/AMR to figure out whats best but...at least when you get gear drops you are still in control and not feel too crappy what you got can't be shitty forever.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2020-02-10 at 11:51 PM.
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  14. #35494
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Curious, what do you not like about Classic WoW?
    Just ot butt in here, personally i find the gameplay of Classic WoW to be slower than molasses, the raids to be boring and the grind unbearable. The only good point is that the levelling is better, but since i prefer raiding anyways it isnt for me.

  15. #35495
    The Lightbringer Pennem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    Their "test" system is worse than the previous system in every conceivable way. They claimed they were listening to feedback and then implemented a far more RNG heavy system in it's place.
    Not in every conceivable way. If you wanna get a higher item lvl piece you gotta do more difficult content. This is a good thing. That's a separate issue from the tuning of corruption effects and the rng in obtaining them.
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    They added multiple extra layers of RNG and stupidly powerful items that go directly against what their OWN philosophy is - "You shouldn't be confused about whether an iLevel upgrade is actually an upgrade".
    I think everyone's pretty much agreed upon how much of a shit show 8.3 has been and that it's very clear they just wanted to wrap up BFA as a whole so they can work on Shadowlands. All the blunder related to corruption is a part of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    Ion is either a pathological liar or an actual monkey.

    You decide.

    I've already seen that video, which was before the corruption nerfs.

    Listen, you're still blindly raging and acting as if I'm saying corruption is amazing and everyone should like it.

    I've already posted elsewhere how it shouldn't require simply rng to obtain corruption and that players should be able to spend corrupted mementos to make items corrupt and not only cleanse its corruption to taper some of the rng involved and give players more control.

    I've also said I don't think many people want to see corruption continue with shadowlands, I certainly don't, but that's not saying I want wf/tf back either. Both of these systems are not what I would prefer (which would be something a lot more deterministic and less rng heavy sans 'does item drop'). While it's better that higher ilvl gear now can only come from higher level content, I'm still not food of the whole negative/positive items for the long haul of an expansion.

    And the fact that certain lower level items can have corruption effects that vastly overpower higher lvl items is a huge case of not enough QA/tuning done. This again follows from the fact that the devs for the most part are probably like "let's close out bfa asap so we can work on shadowlands" as evidence by a blizzard employee on twitter tweeting about how they can now fully focus on SL development and some gif with elsa being free or something like that.

    Again, just chill on the blind rage, no one's saying corrupt is amazing. Is it better than wf/tf? in some ways yes, in some ways no. But I think more people are happy to see wf/tf gone and look forward to a new system iterated off of the corruption system (possibly) for shadowlands content.

    And still I have not seen anywhere that the corruption system as is right now is going to be the same in shadowlands.
    Last edited by Pennem; 2020-02-10 at 11:52 PM.

  16. #35496
    [QUOTE=Orwell7;52093691]
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post

    In WotLK when sub numbers were at their peak?

    Just RNG gear drops and a badge currency you could farm to buy deterministic pieces of loot. Seemed to work fine hey?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hell yeah!
    But they wanted more, like if 12 million subs wasn't enough. Fck capitalism and those sociopaths who design game elements via excel.

    BfA would've been really good if a multi-tiered badge system was implemented.
    And maybe let's get rid of this "new patch = gear reset" shitshow where top raiders forced to do splits with 7alts, grinding AZERITE FROM PREVIOUS RAIDS TO SCRAP FOR RESIDUM??
    GTFO

    Back "in the day", top-end raiders DID play the game 24/7 just like now, but didn't NEED to do splits, farm residuum, and.. to be honest.. We were ALL tilted when Nefarian was defeated with a lots of druids, but now?
    Cloth/leather splits? How is this even possible ESPECIALLY when the design direction is.. oh, let me remember: to make classes DIFFERENT because they were too much alike? How are they different now if you can make a 30-man raid with 25 mages?

    Blizzard did take a massive shit on it's most successful revenue source, absolutely disgusting.
    A massive (12-14 boss) raid every 5-6 months, and maybe 2-3 little 3-5 boss raids every year. 7-10 new 5-man every 2-3 years.

    And they would have been golden.
    Nope, they decided to reinvent the wheel and guess what, its a disaster.
    Remember when you could reasonably play an alt? I remember. It actually made me play the game more. Instead of logging onto an alt and looking at the multiple grinds I need to re-do. Doing shitty WQ rep farm content that I've already done to ad-nauseum on my main.


    The hilarious thing is they had a working system in MoP. It worked flawlessly.

    Warforge = 5 ilevel.
    Titan = 10 ilevel.

    Didn't get an RNG bonus? Well your normal item drop has a 0/2 upgrade path.

    You can farm points to spend to upgrade your item to Titanforge status so you can match the guy that got lucky at the Casino.

    You can also use those points on gear upgrades. Deterministic ones.

    Oh and you can also reforge stats.


    AMAZING.

    Nah let's scrap it all in favour of a Casino. Game definitely hasn't changed hey?

  17. #35497
    Mechagnome Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Just ot butt in here, personally i find the gameplay of Classic WoW to be slower than molasses, the raids to be boring and the grind unbearable. The only good point is that the levelling is better, but since i prefer raiding anyways it isnt for me.
    That's a bit confusing. You say the leveling is better but it's slow. Can you elaborate on that? Also if the raids were boring it wouldn't have spawned the next expansion.

  18. #35498
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I'm saying the way they give them out to you is so limited and I'd rather be having more to do in that regard to endgame stuff then just filling those WQ's up and be done. I'm not a fan of that and this isn't BFA's only fault, Legion suffered from that to.
    Again, i think that is a problem more with the game, not the system. WoW is not the kind of game that can really support gameplay outside daily does of stuff. 8.3 has the pseudo-WQs that have shared progression, but even those are just a different spin on world quests, they are more interesting than World Quests, but in the end they would create teh same problems we encounter with World Quests if they become the new norm.

  19. #35499
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    We will know when Shadowlands releases in April. Imo, the very end of April.
    Oh God, no. They shoot themselves in the foot when they released BfA date so early. Date should be revealed at least midway through Beta, when game is more or less complete.

  20. #35500
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Not in every conceivable way. If you wanna get a higher item lvl piece you gotta do more difficult content. This is a good thing. That's a separate issue from the tuning of corruption effects and the rng in obtaining them.


    I think everyone's pretty much agreed upon how much of a shit show 8.3 has been and that it's very clear they just wanted to wrap up BFA as a whole so they can work on Shadowlands. All the blunder related to corruption is a part of that.


    I've already seen that video, which was before the corruption nerfs.

    Listen, you're still blindly raging and acting as if I'm saying corruption is amazing and everyone should like it.

    I've already posted elsewhere how it shouldn't require simply rng to obtain corruption and that players should be able to spend corrupted mementos to make items corrupt and not only cleanse its corruption to taper some of the rng involved and give players more control.

    I've also said I don't think many people want to see corruption continue with shadowlands, I certainly don't, but that's not saying I want wf/tf back either. Both of these systems are not what I would prefer (which would be something a lot more deterministic and less rng heavy sans 'does item drop'). While it's better that higher ilvl gear now can only come from higher level content, I'm still not food of the whole negative/positive items for the long haul of an expansion.

    And the fact that certain lower level items can have corruption effects that vastly overpower higher lvl items is a huge case of not enough QA/tuning done. This again follows from the fact that the devs for the most part are probably like "let's close out bfa asap so we can work on shadowlands" as evidence by a blizzard employee on twitter tweeting about how they can now fully focus on SL development and some gif with elsa being free or something like that.

    Again, just chill on the blind rage, no one's saying corrupt is amazing. Is it better than wf/tf? in some ways yes, in some ways no. But I think more people are happy to see wf/tf gone and look forward to a new system iterated off of the corruption system (possibly) for shadowlands content.

    And still I have not seen anywhere that the corruption system as is right now is going to be the same in shadowlands.
    No. You don't get to make excuses and neither does Ion.

    8.3 was on the PTR for 6 months. Six. Months.

    It still released like this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Oh God, no. They shoot themselves in the foot when they released BfA date so early. Date should be revealed at least midway through Beta, when game is more or less complete.
    Anyone advocating for a release before November is crazy.

    BfA was a rushed mess of an expansion that they brought FORWARD a month.

    We have multiple reports from Blizzcon that they are incredibly behind on Shadowlands.

    8.3 is clearly a rushed content patch with not much in it because they've pulled everyone onto Shadowlands.



    Anything before November will be a shit show.

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