9.0 General Discussion

[Wangming]

If you're talking only skin colours then they took away some of that with the new models. You could have very dark skin before the new models hit, at least with human models.
With the others you could say they have always been there, I mean there's some characters that always gave off an asian vibe for example, not part of an actual asian culture, and those could now have the faces to match too. I'm talking about those here: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Woo_Ping (with Wu Sheng and Shen Kang Cheng).

Yes, they exist. But that is another can of worms now, isn't it? Where are the asian humans from? Black people? Okay. Tanaris or Stranglethorn. Southsea pirates.

But the only analogy for asia is Pandaria, and the first time a human set foot on it was 4 in game years ago.

WoW doesn't really have it's own Akavir, Othard or Cantha.


Of course this is WoW so might as well say "fuck lore, gameplay first"

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Some of these gaps are also caused by the best players moving to FotM specs, while the slightly weaker ones are left with only dedicated players or those who do not care about doing top DPS, which artifically increases the disparity in sims.

You can't really control that, people are gonna do what they are gonna do. I'm not one to always complain about balance either, I don't think its possible for everyone to do exact amount of DPS(Or hPS), just be close to each other not literally exact).

[Onikaroshi]

Some of these gaps are also caused by the best players moving to FotM specs, while the slightly weaker ones are left with only dedicated players or those who do not care about doing top DPS, which artifically increases the disparity in sims.

There's a couple of factors here too. One, you look at the best players when figuring out how far apart classes really are, so I usually look only at the 90 percentile or better. Two, you remove outliers that are pretty much unanimously agreed upon needing adjustments (fire mage and bm hunter) and only factor in that. And three, you try to give a little benefit of the doubt to the under performers because if the best people aren't playing them that means it's the next best people so their scores end up lower regardless.

Even ignoring three, there's like a 10% difference between Arms (top) and Frost mage (bottom) which in the scheme of things is decently close in this game. So If you actually had all the top players trying on those low specs you'd probably be looking at single digits.

[Sharby]

Some of these gaps are also caused by the best players moving to FotM specs, while the slightly weaker ones are left with only dedicated players or those who do not care about doing top DPS, which artifically increases the disparity in sims.

Yeah but even if you adjust parameters to display average skills levels, the bad specs are still leagues behind the top ones.



Next expansion they should focus on reducing these gaps so players don't feel like detriments to their groups. That should be a priority.

[Onikaroshi]

Yeah but even if you adjust parameters to display average skills levels, the bad specs are still leagues behind the top ones.



Next expansion they should focus on reducing these gaps so players don't feel like detriments to their groups. That should be a priority.

MFW single digit %'s are "leagues"

[Sharby]

MFW single digit %'s are "leagues"

Its big enough to be an issue. Competitive guilds are denying players of these specs from joining their ranks, in an ideal world you should be able to be competitive with any spec you choose, it should just be based on player skill.


In FF14 for example, world first's are done with a disregard to the meta, because all of the classes are close enough to where you can push world-first content with any class. That being said, the content is easier, but I'd like the same environment for WoW.

[Nahrees]

Discussing skin colors for humans is almost baiting responses; however, in a fantasy game, you can have the Asian/African look come from anywhere. Its less about having reliable reasons on why the ethnicity exists and more about representation for the people that want to play themselves in the game. As for elves/gnomes/dwaves, fuck it, why not? The lore reasons behind it? Who cares, whatever.

I would rather have my fantasy be based around fantastical cultures and ethnicity similar to Elder Scrolls (Altmer, Dunmer, Bosmer, Imperial, Nord) more so than real world comparisons, but even then, they have real world influences.

In FF14 for example, world first's are done with a disregard to the meta, because all of the classes are close enough to where you can push world-first content with any class. That being said, the content is easier, but I'd like the same environment for WoW.

There's still a meta that effects the player base in FF14. Ninjas at the beginning of Shadowbringers was known as being a bad DPS. Mechanist in Stormblood was known for being more mechanically difficult than Bard and still did less damage. The meta is regarded.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah but even if you adjust parameters to display average skills levels, the bad specs are still leagues behind the top ones.



Next expansion they should focus on reducing these gaps so players don't feel like detriments to their groups. That should be a priority.

Again though, some of this falls back on elements completely removed from the specs themselves.
1. Good players pick the best spec.
2. Best spec is decided by which class does best in whatever raid.
3. What spec does best can be based on whatever the first wall in the raid is, or what type of damage is required. Or even which one gets the most value out of whatever the current power system is, in this case fire mage, who gets amazing results from stacking crit damage corruptions.

Then suddenly we have a feedback loop, where the best players continue to play the best spec, getting ever better parses, luring more players to change to that spec.
Meanwhile, in casual HC/Mythic progression raids the top DPS are chosen by whoever has good gear and knows how to do good DPS in the current fight.

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Its big enough to be an issue. Competitive guilds are denying players of these specs from joining their ranks, in an ideal world you should be able to be competitive with any spec you choose, it should just be based on player skill.


In FF14 for example, world first's are done with a disregard to the meta, because all of the classes are close enough to where you can push world-first content with any class. That being said, the content is easier, but I'd like the same environment for WoW.

Again though, this is a problem exclusive to the bleeding edge raiders and the unfortunate group of people who think they are.
There is a fix to it, and that would be sacrificing class uniqueness and boss variety.

[George Costanza]

I have no idea what it is but I do know thatMost mastery stats are extremely boring I think I kind of like frost meet mastery but meh

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The problem with that is most of those were just some thing that you would Our healers would not prefer spirit after a certain point armor pen was stackable but you did not really need it hit and expertise were again something that you were just And forget and without re-forging they were kind of weird

it basically is a +damage and a + increased chance to trigger rng thing.

[Onikaroshi]

Its big enough to be an issue. Competitive guilds are denying players of these specs from joining their ranks, in an ideal world you should be able to be competitive with any spec you choose, it should just be based on player skill.


In FF14 for example, world first's are done with a disregard to the meta, because all of the classes are close enough to where you can push world-first content with any class. That being said, the content is easier, but I'd like the same environment for WoW.

It's a player perception issue, not a balancing issue. Method says some is better and people run with it. Shadowpriest was pretty mediocre in M+ at the start of legion, but when they became better later on people still denied them because the only perception was they were bad.

And FF is a completely different ballgame, each job has something it does. You bring a RDM not for DPS but to take res stress of your healers, you take a NIN not for personal dps but to increase your raid dps (not as big of a deal now that it's 5%, but it's still something), etc.

[Sharby]

Again though, some of this falls back on elements completely removed from the specs themselves.
1. Good players pick the best spec.
2. Best spec is decided by which class does best in whatever raid.
3. What spec does best can be based on whatever the first wall in the raid is, or what type of damage is required. Or even which one gets the most value out of whatever the current power system is, in this case fire mage, who gets amazing results from stacking crit damage corruptions.

Then suddenly we have a feedback loop, where the best players continue to play the best spec, getting ever better parses, luring more players to change to that spec.
Meanwhile, in casual HC/Mythic progression raids the top DPS are chosen by whoever has good gear and knows how to do good DPS in the current fight.

- - - Updated - - -



Again though, this is a problem exclusive to the bleeding edge raiders and the unfortunate group of people who think they are.
There is a fix to it, and that would be sacrificing class uniqueness and boss variety.

I will concede that it is more of a problem that stems from mob-mentality, but much like the faction-imbalance there are steps Blizzard can take to reducing this issue. And with Shadowlands, I would like to see them prioritize this over seemingly making it worse with new abilities.

Things like the DH debuff is an example of something that shouldn't exist, or at least more evenly distributed between the classes.

There's still a meta that effects the player base in FF14. Ninjas at the beginning of Shadowbringers was known as being a bad DPS. Mechanist in Stormblood was known for being more mechanically difficult than Bard and still did less damage. The meta is regarded.

I can't find the quote right now, but with the most recent WF clear for the recent patch, the players stated that they didn't pick in accordance to the meta but rather what they found fun, I will concede that it just so happens the classes they enjoyed were all decent, but even still, something like that would be unprecedented WoW, because the gaps between good and bad specs is too large.

[Marlamin]

And a week ago he said this:

No one knows for sure. I think what he said is likely, but he's changed his opinion on the matter so many times that no one should be treating his word as anything except speculation.

Keep in mind those aren't mutually exclusive. Client can show up this week with actual alpha starting and access being granted next week.

[Nagawithlegs]

Towellie is unusually prophetic (AKA blizz feeds him info directly, his fanbase seems like more akin to what Blizz markets towards now instead of hardcore fans).

I'm expecting models at the very least this week.

Also, please tell Muffinus to add a Wicker Monster spirit beast for hunter!
https://twitter.com/Muffinus/status/1232804641168969728

[Nahrees]

I can't find the quote right now, but with the most recent WF clear for the recent patch, the players stated that they didn't pick in accordance to the meta but rather what they found fun, I will concede that it just so happens the classes they enjoyed were all decent, but even still, something like that would be unprecedented WoW, because the gaps between good and bad specs is too large.

Square does a really good job at balancing the classes. Square also has a lot less jobs/specs to balance. All specs are able to clear mythic content. If we only go off the top 10 mythic guilds, then they will pick what is absolutely the best and what counters the mechanics. It's the community, to an extent, that cries out the classes are too unbalances in PvE and that becomes exacerbated whenever they have the top guilds not using them. As long as specs are not doing nearly a quarter less DPS and feel awful to play, I would count that as balanced.

[RoutinelyWorgen]

Looks like stuff be happenin'

[Marlamin]

Looks like stuff be happenin'

This is faked, move along.

[Onikaroshi]

I can't find the quote right now, but with the most recent WF clear for the recent patch, the players stated that they didn't pick in accordance to the meta but rather what they found fun, I will concede that it just so happens the classes they enjoyed were all decent, but even still, something like that would be unprecedented WoW, because the gaps between good and bad specs is too large.

Eh, Savage has about the difficulty of a mid range mythic boss. They're not as lenient when it comes to Ultimate raids.

[Eurhetemec]

Yes, they exist. But that is another can of worms now, isn't it? Where are the asian humans from? Black people? Okay. Tanaris or Stranglethorn. Southsea pirates.

But the only analogy for asia is Pandaria, and the first time a human set foot on it was 4 in game years ago.

WoW doesn't really have it's own Akavir, Othard or Cantha.

Of course this is WoW so might as well say "fuck lore, gameplay first"

This is all based on an assumption, one which has no real basis, that the "default" human is "a white dude" in some sort of serious, intentional way, which I guarantee if you ask Metzen, was not the case. Once you realize that assumption is just that, a shitty assumption then... Also, I don't know why you need this explaining, but Asian-looking people don't need to be from an Asia-analogue. The "white-looking" people certainly aren't from any kind of meaningful analogue of Europe.

[Yarathir]

This is all based on an assumption, one which has no real basis, that the "default" human is "a white dude" in some sort of serious, intentional way, which I guarantee if you ask Metzen, was not the case. Once you realize that assumption is just that, a shitty assumption then... Also, I don't know why you need this explaining, but Asian-looking people don't need to be from an Asia-analogue. The "white-looking" people certainly aren't from any kind of meaningful analogue of Europe.

Ingame human culture is based on medieval western culture, though.

Different ethnicities are mostly shown through different playable races, such as tauren, which are meant to represent native americans. Also, the ingame humans look like half-gorillas, definitely not like they're meant to be straight cartoony versions of real life modern white people- not in terms of facial features either, whereas these asian options and black options seem like they're meant to present modern humans, which might be a bit jarring.

In the end, I have no problem with the notion and more customization is always good, but I hope it doesn't get totally hamfisted.

[Sharby]

Ingame human culture is based on medieval western culture, though.

Different ethnicities are mostly shown through different playable races, such as tauren, which are meant to represent native americans. Also, the ingame humans look like half-gorillas, definitely not like they're meant to be straight cartoony versions of real life modern white people- not in terms of facial features either, whereas these asian options and black options seem like they're meant to present modern humans, which might be a bit jarring.

In the end, I have no problem with the notion and more customization is always good, but I hope it doesn't get totally hamfisted.

Castles are so generic though, as is having a king.



Humans have like zero European influence outside of that imo, and even if they did it still has no effect on the race. Hell, Night Elves borrow a lot from Japanese culture yet don't sound asian or have any asian features.



Futhermore, dark-skinned/asian features have already existed for humans since vanilla, again these new features are just fleshing out what was already there. There doesn't need to be any lore-justification for black/asian humans, and not saying this is you but I'm extremely suspicious of the folks who act like Blizzard is committing a lore-crime by including them. Its just an appearance option.