9.0 General Discussion

[jzhbee]

Steadily improved while class design steadily got worse during the same time. They need to find the right balance which wasn't the case for neither Legion nor BfA. I'm interested to see what they do in Shadowlands and if they're aware of the fundamental problems.

You're changing the argument, though.
Class Homogenization has decreased, regardless of class design. It almost sounds like you're making the argument that homogenization is correlated to good class design.

[Hitei]

People keep parroting the idea that "Because specs have a similar Filler/Spender design, that means every class plays the same."

Despite, you know, classes at launch having a similar "spend mana til you're dry" design, or "press the button on CD" design.

I don't think the two are 1:1. As Nyel said, Vanilla/TBC had some secondary systems that created differentiation. I just think people way oversell early expansion systems and undersell new expansion systems. Having curses and summons makes warlocks "different" than mages, but a warlock in a Classic/Vanilla raid is still sitting there spamming shadowbolt 99% of fights, while a mage is sitting there spamming frostbolt/fireball 99.9% of fights. I think it's highly disingenuous to pretend that kind of differentiation and having a bunch of utility spells that don't see use most days you log on makes early class design more unique than the current, encounter-focused designed where each class has decently unique factors in their typical rotation.

Mana battery Spriest was neat. It's also something completely unsustainable in the current player mindset. Because why would you ever bring a 15/20% DPS loss class when your healers and DPS should just be playing well enough that there's no need for a mana battery? See: The entire shitstorm over covenant abilities being better or worse.

I will take take current Spriest over TBC Spriest any day, because while it was a neat role gimmick, at the end of the day, the rotation and capabilities of a modern spriest are head and shoulders above the archaic version.

Steadily improved while class design steadily got worse during the same time. They need to find the right balance which wasn't the case for neither Legion nor BfA. I'm interested to see what they do in Shadowlands and if they're aware of the fundamental problems.

I don't agree. And I honestly find it hard to believe anyone genuinely does.

No one is going to convince me they actually, actually think that paladins sitting there auto-attacking with seals is better design than current paladin. And I say that as someone who enjoys auto-attack and proc based combat. I liked Vanilla ehancement, but I'm not going to pretend it was better designed than the current one. It just isn't.

You can like other points of a given class' design timeline more than current. I'm not objecting to that. But that doesn't mean classes have gotten worse. It means you liked a specific playstyle more.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

No one is going to convince me they actually, actually think that paladins sitting there auto-attacking with seals is better design than current paladin.

Yeah that was terrible and pretty boring, any kind of class having that is just terrible and no excuse.

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TBF, there's one thing you're missing there.
Mana-battery Spriest (especially the undead kind, with Devouring Plague), did the DPS requirement. In a lot of fights (admittedly, ones where they could cross dot adds), they pulled ahead of some of the pure DPS roles.
It wasn't a bad DPS spec, and I am kind of sad a lot of classes lost their niche, but on the other hand, I'm glad I can pick a spec without worrying that my utility won't make up for my loss of damage.

I'm kind of back and forth on which I'd prefer.

IMO Shadow priests should still be able to do good damage and have some utility(Whatever that is). Sacrificing damage for utility I dunno...seems dumb.

[Monster Hunter]

I don't see any way to earn talents post(or independent of) level cap, so no, they aren't.

They only seem identical to you because you keep ignoring the major differences between the two systems. Essences and Azerite aren't just the slots to fill in, but also the way of obtaining them. Artifact weapons, by design, didn't even have any choice beyond what order you pick the bonuses in.

Seriously? If you can't see the logical fallacy of a statment like "I can't see any way to earn talents POST a level cap" and you belife that talents arn't earnt then tis likely won't go anywhere.

But your refusal to recognise the obvious, and to find excuses and caveats to avoid calling something what it is because it dosnt fit with your view or preconceived notions dosnt change what it is. They are talent systems. Some are exact rip offs of other games talent systems. If you accept that or not is inconsequential tbh.

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ROFL. People just claim Azerite and those other systems are "Whatever is convenient for my terrible, ill-supported argument". You're claiming they're "talents", another guy is claiming they're a replacement for the pruned abilities, another still is claiming they're just a replacement for tier armour.



That's obviously not what they're doing, so... not a very convincing argument.



If you're claiming all classes are significantly impacted by the GCD changes? Because if so I'm not even talking to you anymore. That's beyond ludicrous into "straight-up lies which everyone including the person saying it knows are lies".

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Yeah. Heirlooms are stuck. They can't easily get rid of them because people invested a lot of time and effort in getting them, especially some of the more casual players, and they're involved with achievements and so on. And they serve a useful function in ensuring people leveling up have solid gear, when it is possible RNG to otherwise screw you, especially if you're leveling primarily by dungeons or PvP.

But it does seem quite likely they'll remove or massively nerf the XP boost, because if leveling is 70% shorter than now, it won't be needed.

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That was an issue in TBC. That was in an issue Vanilla, FFS. Plenty of classes/specs sucked in TBC. And most of the max-level stuff was more tedious than the BfA stuff. I'm glad you're enjoying Classic, but I strongly suspect that if they added TBC to Classic, people at max level would be having significantly less fun.

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I mean, Hamsters, you usually make really reasonable posts, but you're confusing an ill-supported opinion for a fact here. He may well have a source, probably someone on one of the non-core teams, like the web developers, but that's very different from a "direct line".

Are they not. So they took away alot of abilities you got from filling a bar.

People complained.

So they added a load of new abilities you get by filling bars.

You can accept that or not, dosnt make difference. Hell the next Bar filling exercise even comes in a tree structure rationalise that with your world view how ever you want bud.

[Edward Wu]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=173128/rumbling-tremors

[Blayze]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=173128/rumbling-tremors

See a doctor; you've had these bowel problems for long enough.

[Sondrelk]

It's gotten worse over the years, it's still one of the problems Legion had and BfA has. I hope Shadowlands goes another way but I don't hold my breath. I'd rather be a Shadow Priest with HP/MP regen and deal 15% less damage than just one DPS like every other in game. But that might be my personal preference.

It's very easy to say that now, when you personally think that Spriest plays terribly. But imagine trying ot champion this mentality at the beginning of Legion, when the best Priest players used STM to burst down Mythic Il'gynoth hard enough to require both buffing Il'gynoth and nerfing STM.

There is also the problem of considering what the priest players who want to play competetively would feel knowing their class is at best 15% worse than any other player, more if the raid tier has loads of fights that Spriests do not do well at.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's very easy to say that now, when you personally think that Spriest plays terribly. But imagine trying ot champion this mentality at the beginning of Legion, when the best Priest players used STM to burst down Mythic Il'gynoth hard enough to require both buffing Il'gynoth and nerfing STM.

There is also the problem of considering what the priest players who want to play competetively would feel knowing their class is at best 15% worse than any other player, more if the raid tier has loads of fights that Spriests do not do well at.

I don't know why anyone would want to be 15% weaker just to have extra regen, thats not even fair...or even good design.

[keygy]

I don't know why anyone would want to be 15% weaker just to have extra regen, thats not even fair...or even good design.

that the wow classic itself, right now how is the game designed its stupid to have a dps that gets 15% lower dps because "utility".

Its simple if we want "supporters", "debuffers" and in the end classes that are oriented to utility, we need to rework the metagame of the Trinity Aka Tank,DPS and Healer, to the Tank,DPS,Healer and Support/Debuffer.

But this a fucking huge change, that dont think gonna happen, in the end World of Warcraft uses the traditional trinity of tank, dps and healer.

Classic is not diferent but in the beginning the system of classes was awful and a lot of dps specs where shit and was categorized as spec "utility" or something like that.

[huth]

Seriously? If you can't see the logical fallacy of a statment like "I can't see any way to earn talents POST a level cap" and you belife that talents arn't earnt then tis likely won't go anywhere.

But that's the entire point of the systems in question. Providing you with the ability to gain something outside of gear at level cap. If you ignore that, your entire argument is meaningless. There's a logical fallacy here alright, but you need to look in the mirror harder.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I have this feeling that heirlooms are going away in 9.0.

Leveling is being sped up so much in the upcoming revamp that there's going to be no real need for them. People who've collected a lot of them and the upgrades should probably be compensated, though.

Taking things away from players that said players have spent tons of gold on would be goodwill suicide. I'm not sure HOW they could do away with Heirlooms as they function now without having hell to pay for it.

Maybe it's just like flying: They opened the can of worms, they gotta learn to live with it.

As for people and Towelliee: When he says direct line, I assume it to mean just that. Would be weird if the large stramers on good footing with Blizzard are not in contact with Lore for example, when he's literally in charge of Streamer relations.

[Eurhetemec]

As for people and Towelliee: When he says direct line, I assume it to mean just that. Would be weird if the large stramers on good footing with Blizzard are not in contact with Lore for example, when he's literally in charge of Streamer relations.

The person who is in charge of the streamers isn't going to be giving shit away to Streamers, dude. He's the least likely person to leak or the like.

Further, a direct line would imply that he had a line inside Blizzard, not a PR flack. I mean, jeez, by that logic an awful lot of people have "direct line" to Blizzard.

[Queen of Hamsters]

The person who is in charge of the streamers isn't going to be giving shit away to Streamers, dude. He's the least likely person to leak or the like.

Further, a direct line would imply that he had a line inside Blizzard, not a PR flack. I mean, jeez, by that logic an awful lot of people have "direct line" to Blizzard.

Yet Lore have literally posted in the stream chat at times.
And it is not leaks, but information. If a streamer privvy to that information leaked it before it was time, they'd be in trouble. I'm 100% sure that the info is given to create low-key, obscure hype from content creators they can trust.

And yes, I'm guessing a direct line means exactly that. And no, "an awful lot of people" do not have that perk granted to them.

I've watched the stream for years. It is pretty clear which streamers/content creators are approved at the Blizzard headquarter and thus get special treatment. Off-topic as it is, I'm leaving this convo with that.

[DemonDays]

I don't know why anyone would want to be 15% weaker just to have extra regen, thats not even fair...or even good design.

Who are you to say what's good and bad design?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Who are you to say what's good and bad design?

....You really want me to explain somehow losing a lot of damage in a Spec designed to focus on damage somehow has something that guts their damage just for some hp/mana regen? Yeah no..... thats just dumb, the spec should be able to do damage effectively.

[Queen of Hamsters]

....You really want me to explain somehow losing a lot of damage in a Spec designed to focus on damage somehow has something that guts their damage just for some hp/mana regen? Yeah no..... thats just dumb, the spec should be able to do damage effectively.

Agreed, it's lazy design at best.

[razorpax]

Agreed, it's lazy design at best.

the hybrid tax is a design that not only did not work but also had the feel of sandpaper on your scrotum when playing

back in the world you could get stuff like that to work because

class A could do X and Z
class B could do X and Y
class C could do Y and Z

players did not really care because at that point we had just come from a case where

class A could do X but not Y or Z
class B could do Y but not X or Z
class C could do Z but not X or Y

[DemonDays]

the hybrid tax is a design that not only did not work but also had the feel of sandpaper on your scrotum when playing

back in the world you could get stuff like that to work because

class A could do X and Z
class B could do X and Y
class C could do Y and Z

players did not really care because at that point we had just come from a case where

class A could do X but not Y or Z
class B could do Y but not X or Z
class C could do Z but not X or Y

Why can a Rogue literally do everything better than most other Melee then? Right now, in the current game.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Why can a Rogue literally do everything better than most other Melee then? Right now, in the current game.

Debatable and subjective as hell.

[Monster Hunter]

But that's the entire point of the systems in question. Providing you with the ability to gain something outside of gear at level cap. If you ignore that, your entire argument is meaningless. There's a logical fallacy here alright, but you need to look in the mirror harder.

you lityteraly arguing that there not talent systems because you ern them after max level rather than earn them whilst leveling. you whole argument is based on the bar you fill not being purple/blue but being yellow or green instead. thats it, how you dont see that is beyond me.