9.0 General Discussion

[Manu9]

Fitting Avatar.

Weird bug, shouldn't they be soulbound ?

Probably just a mistake on the Beta, but they aren't bound to anything except level 60, 1 equipped, and armor type.

[razorpax]

Pretty much every decision Blizzard makes has clear downsides, the reason they do it is because they also have clear upsides too. Making Mythic fixed 20 man had the massive downsides of killing 10 man raiding at the highest level, in essence killing the guilds who relied on those numbers. The upside was that encounters could now be more inventive, not to mention Blizzard being able to add a need for specific classes pretty much guilt-free, since 20 people are enough that you can reasonably assume there is at least 1 of each class.

For Covenants not being easily changeable the clear downside is that you cannot be perfectly optimal in every situation, as well as potentially being a bummer for those who really want a covenant ability, class ability and possibly even story or armor set from different covenants. The upside is that the game becomes more of an RPG, reclaiming a bit of that side of gameplay that has mostly been lost in the pursuit of raiding and PvP as the most prominent, and indeed only viable source of endgame content for a while.

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Redemption would technically be correct for that matter. It would just be redemption for her choice to be the Night Warrior.

Though I guess in more common parlance salvation is a better fit. Either that or to say that she "finds peace".

this game never had any form of permanent player power choice

again nobody wants covenants to be swappable

just the two buttons

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sometimes i think we should have got just new talent row

we should have

its now going to be 3 expansions with no new talents

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No, it means those two want, or at least claim to want it. The vast majority are not sure what they want, or if they do know, those wants might be contradictory.

Obviously noone "wants" to be inconvenienced, but the players might be perfectly onboard if you ask if they want impactful choices, or just more RPG elements.

As I have mentioned before, this is the same argument that players had against the removal of flying. Because noone wants to be inconvenienced, but players might in fact want the game world to feel more alive and immersive, and those two wants are not always aligned.

dont let covenants be swappable

let the abilities be swappable

you keep the rpg element of swearing yourself to a covenants and you dont gimp yourself in some content

[dcc626]

this game never had any form of permanent player power choice

again nobody wants covenants to be swappable

just the two buttons

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we should have

its now going to be 3 expansions with no new talents

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dont let covenants be swappable

let the abilities be swappable

you keep the rpg element of swearing yourself to a covenants and you dont gimp yourself in some content

covenants being swappable is more likely then letting the abilities be swappable. they were made as part of the covenant. they wont be a talent row you can change. if they let covenants be swappable yo uwill have to go and grind out the rep for soulbinds and unlock each covenant you want to use, once. it will likely take weeks to fully unlock a covenant.

and people are going to complain. regardless of how they do it.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Fitting Avatar.

Weird bug, shouldn't they be soulbound ?

They probably just copy pasted the base item's database entries and forgot to set the soulbound flag to BoP when turning it into a legendary. The base item can be traded and bought but obviously that makes no longer sense once you made it a legendary. Same with class restrictions, probably just forgot to add them, since the base item mighht not need it. Beta is beta.

[Sondrelk]

this game never had any form of permanent player power choice

again nobody wants covenants to be swappable

just the two buttons

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we should have

its now going to be 3 expansions with no new talents

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dont let covenants be swappable

let the abilities be swappable

you keep the rpg element of swearing yourself to a covenants and you dont gimp yourself in some content

It isnt even permanent though, the only difficulty here is that Blizzard decided that to make the choice more impactful oyu have to not just weigh the DPS or Utility potential, but also the story and aesthetics. If they didnt then the abilities would pretty much instantly fall to the minmaxing crowd, preventing the playerbase from realizing how pointless the grind is for most of them.
But by combining the once disparate elements of story and gameplay players will have to choose how much they care about aesthetics versus gameplay. For Bleeding edge raiders the answer will most likely be ot always choose whatever is best mathematically, but for more casual players we have the entire spectrum of people who only want whatever story is fun, to those who might have to compromise.

For the vast majority of the playerbase the difference between 2 or 3 talents is mostly irrelevant. Only the very best 0.1% of players are likely to be able to play at a level where they can even come close to getting as good numbers as a sim might. But for more casual players their DPS can fluctuate wildly, and for those the importance is more on showing them that they can play to have fun, and then optimize to their preferred level. I for instance used to slavishly follow the guides on what talents/essences to pick, but then decided to try a more personalized variant based on the playstyle I enjoy and barely saw my DPS fall at all.


If you allow the covenants to be easily changeable then the playerbase won't get that realization that 2-3% DPS difference doesnt really matter between talents, and that what they enjoy playing is more important.

Besides, covenants can be swapped if you want, just not between raid bosses, or raids and dungeons. But if you really want ot chase the latest trends then you might have some issues at the very beginning as the meta solidifies, but you will have no problems swapping between seasons in preparation for new raids.

[spleen1015]

Need some clarification.

I have seen some chatter the last couple of saying that Covenant choice is permanent. I thought we could change, but it would require more to return to one that you've dropped previously. Did something change this week?

[Sondrelk]

Need some clarification.

I have seen some chatter the last couple of saying that Covenant choice is permanent. I thought we could change, but it would require more to return to one that you've dropped previously. Did something change this week?

Nothing changed. Some people are just mistaking "impossible to swap freely" with permanent. If you want you could probably swap covenant each week.

[Cherry123]

What will be the second raid? Torghast is a dungeon and and where will the second raid.

[spleen1015]

Nothing changed. Some people are just mistaking "impossible to swap freely" with permanent. If you want you could probably swap covenant each week.

Thank you!

[Cosmic Janitor]

Need some clarification.

I have seen some chatter the last couple of saying that Covenant choice is permanent. I thought we could change, but it would require more to return to one that you've dropped previously. Did something change this week?

The details aren't implemented yet, so we don't know how long it will take to be back up to the point where you can properly use your character to it's fullest. But Ion said in one of his recent interviews they probably don't want people to change every raid and likely not even every tier, which would indicate that the toll on getting back up there will be hefty. You also lose everything with that covenant, so you essentially start over. You can ask yourself how reasonable that is for another ability.

[MadamSerenity]

The details aren't implemented yet, so we don't know how long it will take to be back up to the point where you can properly use your character to it's fullest. But Ion said in one of his recent interviews they probably don't want people to change every raid and likely not even every tier, which would indicate that the toll on getting back up there will be hefty. You also lose everything with that covenant, so you essentially start over. You can ask yourself how reasonable that is for another ability.

This is not quite right. They have said recently that if you leave a covenant and then come back, you will keep your renown level so you don't have to start all the way over.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The details aren't implemented yet, so we don't know how long it will take to be back up to the point where you can properly use your character to it's fullest. But Ion said in one of his recent interviews they probably don't want people to change every raid and likely not even every tier, which would indicate that the toll on getting back up there will be hefty. You also lose everything with that covenant, so you essentially start over. You can ask yourself how reasonable that is for another ability.

If they mean the renown you might of earned and it resets....

This is not quite right. They have said recently that if you leave a covenant and then come back, you will keep your renown level so you don't have to start all the way over.

Never mind I was incorrect.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

What will be the second raid? Torghast is a dungeon and and where will the second raid.

I think it's either gonna be a Drust themed raid or a raid dealing with Kel'Thuzad, again.

[Cosmic Janitor]

This is not quite right. They have said recently that if you leave a covenant and then come back, you will keep your renown level so you don't have to start all the way over.

Hmm, okay. Together with non-usable conduits this might be less of an issue then. The unknown still remains what it takes to get back into their graces. Since they haven't implemented anything in that regard and only stated their vague intentions I'm still rather cautious either way to give them a pass or not.

[gunner_recall]

I think it's either gonna be a Drust themed raid or a raid dealing with Kel'Thuzad, again.

Maybe each covenant will get a raid to resolve their storyline.

[Varodoc]

What will be the second raid? Torghast is a dungeon and and where will the second raid.

The real question is what the final raid might be. Since the final boss is Jailer, I don't see where else he could be fought other than Torghast. Yet at the same time Torghast won't be a raid in Shadowlands.

[MadamSerenity]

I am personally torn on the whole covenant issue. I firmly want covenants to be a choice meaning the ability needs to stick with it, but I feel peoples anger towards this will prevent people from enjoying an overall great expansion. People's arguments always revolve around that making it switchable doesn't hurt the RP crowd, but makes it enjoyable for the high end content crowd. I struggle with this because they say that RP individuals can just not change their faction or ability, but to me, that is like telling someone that doesn't like flying to not fly. If it is available to do, everyone will do it. The point is that we actually do want it to be a meaningful choice and that whatever covenant you pick should provide the options for that covenant.

And I know that if things stay as they are, most people will be choosing Venthyr, but the abilities that go with the Covenant are part of the whole package, and being able to use the covenant armor, but have a different ability seems wrong. That's like going Venthyr for the aesthetic and teleport, and then having the mage ability for Night Fae even though there would be no reason why you should. This all reminds me of the GCD issue and master loot. Both of these are very heated topics that a lot of high end people would like to change, but they haven't. It feels like with this one though there is a possibility it will change, and this one has people on both sides, so no matter what Blizzard does, someone will be unhappy. Either the high end community will continue to ask for it, or the RP/Casual crowd will be upset that Blizzard caved.

[gunner_recall]

The real question is what the final raid might be. Since the final boss is Jailer, I don't see where else he could be fought other than Torghast. Yet at the same time Torghast won't be a raid in Shadowlands.

They could easily put a side door for a Torghast raid like they did with the ICC dungeons.

It's not like they haven't just...jammed a raid door onto an existing building.

[Varodoc]

They could easily put a side door for a Torghast raid like they did with the ICC dungeons.

It's not like they haven't just...jammed a raid door onto an existing building.

And what would be inside? Simply a rehash of the dungeon Torghast? You ascend the tower and explore it in-depth during the Torghast runs.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

And what would be inside? Simply a rehash of the dungeon Torghast? You ascend the tower and explore it in-depth during the Torghast runs.

I mean we had a raid that took place in Orgrimmar so it doesn't necessarily have to be a completely new place. Could be a part of the Shadowlands that is still related to the Maw for all we know. Torghast seems to easy of an answer.