9.0 General Discussion

[Cosmic Janitor]

One of these days, the people in this thread are going to get what they asked for, and all specs will become standardized with only cosmetic variations.

Please remember that you need to put the strawman at least 40 cm deep into the ground, otherwise the next storm might knock them over.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Please remember that you need to put the strawman at least 40 cm deep into the ground, otherwise the next storm might knock them over.

And if you live in a hard freeze zone you'll want to go at least 3 feet down.

[Makabreska]

So what you’re saying is it’s to introduce a talent row that you cannot swap as easily as we have been for the last 15 years


Do you see this is why when I watch the washer interview I was a little confused because he use a lot of buzz words like rpg And constantly talks like this was good for the game but the problem is a lot of his justification were made up scenarios that never happened

This system won’t change anything just because you make swapping annoying

Another problem is every time someone points out this won’t go as planed you get others saying “so they shouldn’t try?” And the answer is no they shouldn’t because it’s a waste of time and resources.

It’s going to turn out like playing multiple specs in legion only it depends on what point in legion based on the swapping mechanism.

Again. Single, non-changable performance choice that can be adjusted via Soulbinds, and is useful depending on the circumstances and people loose their minds. We really got spoiled by all those convenience improvements over the years. We can't say it will be successfully, but it's damn sure you can't say it will certainly fail.

[SirBeef]

I'm not saying it's necessarily bad. Only that it is likely to happen.

If it does, then I'd call covenants a success. No longer are players held to I must do what the elites tell me I need to be doing and they can play how they want.

[Popokolara]

If it does, then I'd call covenants a success. No longer are players held to I must do what the elites tell me I need to be doing and they can play how they want.

Elites dont give a shit. What you face is casuals or semi-hardcore at most, who have demands because they dont know you and play it safe. IF you dont pick talents that support your content, chances are you will be bad. Its a normal assumption to make.

Btw, you can play how you want.
But you also cant expect people to treat you like an old friend when they dont know you.
Only people with low intelligence or serious personal issues fall into the trap of accusing an abstract elite for what is simply common sense: if people can do 100, and you do 5, you are bad. Not different playstyle, or anything. Plain bad. Don't play group content if you cant stand the obvious observation of doing shit.

Oh btw you think covenants will change those stupid LF resto druid 3k io for a 15? Like, you actually believe that? Boy i got a surprise for you.

[dcc626]

Please remember that you need to put the strawman at least 40 cm deep into the ground, otherwise the next storm might knock them over.

he's wrong. people dont want all the toons to be the same. they just want live to be the tourney realm where they can have anything and everything without having to put in the time for any of it. and to be able to swap whenever they want.

bury that somewhere.

[Sharby]

Elites dont give a shit. What you face is casuals or semi-hardcore at most, who have demands because they dont know you and play it safe. IF you dont pick talents that support your content, chances are you will be bad. Its a normal assumption to make.

Btw, you can play how you want.
But you also cant expect people to treat you like an old friend when they dont know you.
Only people with low intelligence or serious personal issues fall into the trap of accusing an abstract elite for what is simply common sense: if people can do 100, and you do 5, you are bad. Not different playstyle, or anything. Plain bad. Don't play group content if you cant stand the obvious observation of doing shit.

Oh btw you think covenants will change those stupid LF resto druid 3k io for a 15? Like, you actually believe that? Boy i got a surprise for you.

Yeah the line of thinking where bad players are entitled to join any group but everyone else isn't allowed to manage their own groups how they want without being demonized as elitist never made sense to me.

If you are bad just make your own groups. No one is required to carry you.


This isn't even getting to the point of how I don't understand how someone can be okay with being flagrantly bad without a desire to at least be on par which doesn't even require much dedication. Single player games are understandable though.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah the line of thinking where bad players are entitled to join any group but everyone else isn't allowed to manage their own groups how they want without being demonized as elitist never made sense to me.

If you are bad just make your own groups. No one is required to carry you.


This isn't even getting to the point of how I don't understand how someone can be okay with being flagrantly bad without a desire to at least be on par which doesn't even require much dedication. Single player games are understandable though.

...Its not like these groups NEVER inflate their requirements and just want to be carried.....Except they do.

[Sharby]

...Its not like these groups NEVER inflate their requirements and just want to be carried.....Except they do.

And when you see that you do what I do and just ignore them because ridiculous groups are not worth a second thought.


I can understand how its frustrating if you're limited on time and trying to target a dungeon and that's the only group up (I've been there multiple times.) But that's more-so the fault of the game for not letting you pick your own keystone. That being said still doesn't mean those people aren't allowed to make dumb groups like that nor does it mean its elitist for said people to curate their group mates how they want.

[SirBeef]

Elites dont give a shit. What you face is casuals or semi-hardcore at most, who have demands because they dont know you and play it safe. IF you dont pick talents that support your content, chances are you will be bad. Its a normal assumption to make.

Btw, you can play how you want.
But you also cant expect people to treat you like an old friend when they dont know you.
Only people with low intelligence or serious personal issues fall into the trap of accusing an abstract elite for what is simply common sense: if people can do 100, and you do 5, you are bad. Not different playstyle, or anything. Plain bad. Don't play group content if you cant stand the obvious observation of doing shit.

Oh btw you think covenants will change those stupid LF resto druid 3k io for a 15? Like, you actually believe that? Boy i got a surprise for you.

Never claimed any if that but put words in my mouth.

[Popokolara]

Never claimed any if that but put words in my mouth.

I m sorry then, if i misinterpreted the sentence:
No longer are players held to I must do what the elites tell me I need to be doing and they can play how they want.

The elites tell people how to play.
And you cannot play what you want because of them. And covenants will change that
Thats what i understood. Nono sorry, thats what you said.

[Krakan]

I m sorry then, if i misinterpreted the sentence:
No longer are players held to I must do what the elites tell me I need to be doing and they can play how they want.

The elites tell people how to play.
And you cannot play what you want because of them. And covenants will change that
Thats what i understood. Nono sorry, thats what you said.

I mean not really... assuming elite in this context means .. I don't know world 500? The elites never talk or interact with you beyond selling you a carry.

We wall ourselves off by design we want nothing to do with most players.

[razorpax]

Again. Single, non-changable performance choice that can be adjusted via Soulbinds, and is useful depending on the circumstances and people loose their minds. We really got spoiled by all those convenience improvements over the years. We can't say it will be successfully, but it's damn sure you can't say it will certainly fail.

I can say that
1. It’s swappable
2. It was compared to artifacts when watcher said “that was a permanent choice and you couldn’t catch up quickly” BS you could keep two equal easily and that’s making covenants sound like specs
3. You will still have a meta. It’s not disappearing because you toss a boulder on the path. Pvp will be X covenant so you focus on that if you’re a pvp player and Y covenant is good for m+ so you have that
4. Making something annoying doesn’t make it difficult and ppl keep thinking only the 1% will be burdened by this so it’s ok which means that they are ok with telling other players they don’t want a change that won’t effect them in any way because they don’t understand how the system is going to work out.
5. Blizzard will screw with covenants constantly so players will want to switch but upon making the choice to go back they will essentially be punished.

I don’t see any upside to the difficulty of changing outside of some made up situation of ppl saying “I’m ok with being shit now because later I won’t be” when in reality you will just have the players who like optimization going through extra hoops

Billy will think “well I’m a necroLord so I’m not good in this boss but I will be fine in m+” and in some cases he will be benched

Fuck billy though because we want to make a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist

[Thenatural]

I can say that
2. It was compared to artifacts when watcher said “that was a permanent choice and you couldn’t catch up quickly” BS you could keep two equal easily and that’s making covenants sound like specs

You must not have raided, because even if we put aside legendary RNG which is a major part of this discussion, there was no possible way to maintain two specs at similar capacity. BEfore the first raid getting two specs to the frist golden trait threshold was impossible. Each sort of soft cap was always around a major trait, and keeping two close to the same effectiveness was literally impossible until 7.2. If you were a class that had a busted second spec for some encounters you could get away with having less traits, but this was niche and certainly didn't work for people who played different specs.

Your argument here also falls apart because legendaries existed and were rare and massively RNG dependent. If you were doing even slightly high end content and had a lagging artifact with no sped legendaries you were a burden, and a very heavy one at that.

[razorpax]

And what it has to do with having small numbers again? Also, it's kinda normal that each tier makes previous one obsolete. You want to run both tiers at once, because previous sets are still BiS like in Legion or even like in BfA with EP trinkets?

I was ok with semi linear progression

It wasn’t until legion that the previous tier was rendered completely pointless but it did start in WoD because of the community only focusing on ilvl and bitching about the world first kill of a boss having gear get disenchanted.

The small number aspect is that they constantly have to squish because in 3 tiers our damage is almost 10x higher

Personally I’d remove the inflated world quest rewards for a currency to power up gear so if a player wants to raid they can skip the WQ without feeling they missed a weapon drop and instead go to the previous raid. Screw the lfr requiring anything less than the ilvl of last tier heroic which you’d get via m+ or pvp whereas now you can get gear on par with mythic palace

[Houle]

Btw, has anyone else noticed that they added a new sitting/lying down pose for Hakkar?
https://imgur.com/a/EOBhWQA
Since he wont use that in the dungeon (where hes standing the entire time) i think thats a pretty clear indicator we'll see Hakkar in a bigger role later in the addon. Why would they add a whole new position for him otherwise.
Looks like hes sitting somewhere on a bench or throne or smth, with his tail hanging down the side

[razorpax]

You must not have raided, because even if we put aside legendary RNG which is a major part of this discussion, there was no possible way to maintain two specs at similar capacity. BEfore the first raid getting two specs to the frist golden trait threshold was impossible. Each sort of soft cap was always around a major trait, and keeping two close to the same effectiveness was literally impossible until 7.2. If you were a class that had a busted second spec for some encounters you could get away with having less traits, but this was niche and certainly didn't work for people who played different specs.

Your argument here also falls apart because legendaries existed and were rare and massively RNG dependent. If you were doing even slightly high end content and had a lagging artifact with no sped legendaries you were a burden, and a very heavy one at that.

First raid opened I had almost my third golden trait on my dps weapon
I think at that point in order to get the third golden trait it was something like 20k or whatever but I remember the pally healer throwing a fit so I had to heal that night

You had the priority list for traits and you could have your second one within 3 traits of your first which I how I healed and later tanked.

Legendaries were a broken shit system but if blizzard wants to say “hey look at this system at least it’s better than that garbage” well grats? The legendary system also had the problem of blp and general legendaries because I remember swapping the loot spec to my off spec in hopes I would get a general legendary after I got a spec legendary on my main spec.

You have also just compared the covenants to early legion design.....you know what the community reaction to that was.

[Krakan]

Btw, has anyone else noticed that they added a new sitting/lying down pose for Hakkar?
https://imgur.com/a/EOBhWQA
Since he wont use that in the dungeon (where hes standing the entire time) i think thats a pretty clear indicator we'll see Hakkar in a bigger role later in the addon. Why would they add a whole new position for him otherwise.
Looks like hes sitting somewhere on a bench or throne or smth, with his tail hanging down the side

Might just end up a quest npc like the za bosses.

[Orwell7]

You must not have raided, because even if we put aside legendary RNG which is a major part of this discussion, there was no possible way to maintain two specs at similar capacity. BEfore the first raid getting two specs to the frist golden trait threshold was impossible. Each sort of soft cap was always around a major trait, and keeping two close to the same effectiveness was literally impossible until 7.2. If you were a class that had a busted second spec for some encounters you could get away with having less traits, but this was niche and certainly didn't work for people who played different specs.

Your argument here also falls apart because legendaries existed and were rare and massively RNG dependent. If you were doing even slightly high end content and had a lagging artifact with no sped legendaries you were a burden, and a very heavy one at that.

So... ugh.. both sucked balls hard?
Let's not pretend that the start of Legion wasn't a stressful and non-grindy shitshow. It was, most players (except the real neckbeards who want to play wow 30h/day) didn't really loved it. Got Prydaz or Sephuz? I know some people who just said fk it and unsubbed. Way to go Blizzard!

I certainly won't touch Shadowlands if it stays like this, tho I got all the CE's since it was implemented.

[Plehnard]

Btw, has anyone else noticed that they added a new sitting/lying down pose for Hakkar?
https://imgur.com/a/EOBhWQA
Since he wont use that in the dungeon (where hes standing the entire time) i think thats a pretty clear indicator we'll see Hakkar in a bigger role later in the addon. Why would they add a whole new position for him otherwise.
Looks like hes sitting somewhere on a bench or throne or smth, with his tail hanging down the side

"Draw me like one those French girls!" - Hakkar