1. #62481
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Which those changes obviously knocked it down from being a must pick. So, again, people bringing up the issue of how strong it was and how it would be mandatory got the ability changed. You can try to state it was knee jerk all you want but the fact is that reaction caused the changes to it and other Covenant abilities.
    I think you are vastly overestimating the usefulness of that single nerf. The Venthyr covenant almost quite literally went from completely OP and set to ruin the M+ meta forever, to not even being a talking point.

    I find that interesting because i had to defend that viewpoint way back when it was still relevant that in the grand scheme the Venthyr ability was never that good, and indeed would be more likely be supplanted by covenants that give the best DPS and then additionally would have an utility cooldown that is more useful.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #62482
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    That has to be trolling lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Imagine if it issnt though. The tables would have truly turned on the once proud Classic fanboys who claimed Classic would kill Retail.

    But sadly I would guess this is fake.

    - - - Updated - - -
    You'd think. I was in a guild during Wrath where you had to be on voice chat 100% of the time you were playing the game, (that was enforced or you were kicked) and you were not allowed to be in any other guild/team on other games. Not as crazy as this but things like these aren't unheard of.

  3. #62483
    Quote Originally Posted by dragothica View Post
    For Beta testers, I'd like to ask about the Maw as a Endgame zone and specifically about the Eyes of the Jailer mechanic. How frustrating did you find it and how long does it take until you are forced to leave the Maw area?

    I had almost forgotten about this but thanks to Reddit of all things there was a thread about Paladins mounting up in the Maw zone. I have beta access but couldn't play it too much because the latency to US servers was way too much..

    It's just that I find it somewhat depressing, or frustrating, by being forced to do the Maw endgame zone which is another grey (well it's brown this time) wasteland with annoying mechanics and not being able to mount up which is the final deal breaker here. I love World Quests in WoW but these new mechanics will make doing them so frustrating, or at least it seems like it will be a much worse experience while in the Maw.
    First time I tried it took me about 30-40 minutes to get the level 3/4 need for the Torghast key quest, so I guess a bit longer than that. After that, I never once went back to that zone to... "test it." It's so horrendously boring & barren, & it's size along with the inability to mount just make it the most frustrating experience imaginable.

  4. #62484
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Did you ever stop to think for 2 seconds that it was because of that “knee jerk reaction,” as you put it, that got the ability changed to where it isn’t a mandatory thing now?
    It was always an niche ability that people rabidly oversold in their attempt to mount evidence against the system. Bringing a single rogue is better for the group than stacking 5 venthyr in terms of content skipping in M+, and it was never all that valuable for any class with it's own mobility. Pre-nerf Necrolord immunity was much more broken and even without specific encounters designed for it, the cleanse on Kyrian is extremely strong in any encounter with those debuffs. The venthyr ability basically requires very, very niche situations to ever been more than alright. It was never mandatory.

  5. #62485
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    It was always an niche ability that people rabidly oversold in their attempt to mount evidence against the system. Bringing a single rogue is better for the group than stacking 5 venthyr in terms of content skipping in M+, and it was never all that valuable for any class with it's own mobility. Pre-nerf Necrolord immunity was much more broken and even without specific encounters designed for it, the cleanse on Kyrian is extremely strong in any encounter with those debuffs. The venthyr ability basically requires very, very niche situations to ever been more than alright. It was never mandatory.
    Which still doesn’t change that until changes it was the go to pick. That hasn’t changed. Knee jerk or not it was still the best at the time.

  6. #62486
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Which still doesn’t change that until changes it was the go to pick. That hasn’t changed. Knee jerk or not it was still the best at the time.
    If there was anything that made players change their minds it was the reveal of the covenant specific bonuses on each dungeon that made them realize they couldnt both argue that having one of each covenant was mandatory while at the same time arguing that M+ would be Venthyr only.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  7. #62487
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    If there was anything that made players change their minds it was the reveal of the covenant specific bonuses on each dungeon that made them realize they couldnt both argue that having one of each covenant was mandatory while at the same time arguing that M+ would be Venthyr only.
    I wouldn't call searching for a token class covenant comp as the sign of a successful system...

  8. #62488
    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    I wouldn't call searching for a token class covenant comp as the sign of a successful system...
    i wouldnt call listening to the playerbase as a sign of a successful system either. its bound to fail if only because people have decided it will. it could literally be the best thing ever added to the game (its not) and people would still cry foul.

    but they arent going to change it. we either deal with it or move on.

  9. #62489
    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    I wouldn't call searching for a token class covenant comp as the sign of a successful system...
    Noone is saying it is. Just that when the Covenant abilities were first shown the community was up in arms over how Venthyr was clearly the superior choice and would kill all competition, which was eventually a belief that died down without ceremony around the time players realized that there were in fact other factors they had refused to accept earlier.

    The idea that any group will micromanage everything from covenant to race is something that doesnt really exist outside the MDI and the dreams of players who either think they are on that level or are simply looking for any excuse to complain.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #62490
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Which still doesn’t change that until changes it was the go to pick. That hasn’t changed. Knee jerk or not it was still the best at the time.
    It literally wasn't though. That is my point. It was """"the best"""" to people who heard some random person (incorrectly) claim it was broken and instead of thinking critically and realizing it wasn't even all that unusually strong in the situations favorable to it, they started parroting that it was the best and only choice. Even in its unnerfed state, it being the best, or even good, for a given class (the entire argument for which largely ignored the entire soulbind and class ability side) was a complete toss up.

    What mage trying to optimize would be dumb enough to take Venthyr for Door of Shadows when at the time it was seen as a huge power loss for shit they could already do with blink and invis? What rogue would even remotely be interested when they can do everything it can do with grappling hook and also have stealth? What M+ leader would be dumb enough to sit waiting for 5 venthyr instead of picking up one rogue?

    The knee jerk here was nerfing it to calm people's misguided hysteria that somehow a shitty 35 yard teleport was going to break the entire game--as if what it does can't already be done by existing class mechanics without the increased risk of proximity pulling or need for every member of the party to be the same covenant.

  11. #62491
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Noone is saying it is. Just that when the Covenant abilities were first shown the community was up in arms over how Venthyr was clearly the superior choice and would kill all competition, which was eventually a belief that died down without ceremony around the time players realized that there were in fact other factors they had refused to accept earlier.

    The idea that any group will micromanage everything from covenant to race is something that doesnt really exist outside the MDI and the dreams of players who either think they are on that level or are simply looking for any excuse to complain.
    I mean...no?

    I think you misunderstand the situation and I don't really blame you for that unless you play at a fairly high level it doesn't effect you. The issue with covenants is that they are in practice just another talent row. You have your single target talent, your aoe talent, and your survivability talent, and your useless bencher talent.

    What people got up in arms about is that at higher levels you are going to see massive disparities depending on what progression path you effectively lock yourself into. You will either be raiding, mythic+pushing or pvping. You can't effectively do more then one for most classes with this system as each values extremely different forms of dmg ( raiding sustained dmg, mythic plus aoe, PvP burst survivability). People assumed that venthyr would win because of how overwhelmingly powerful blink is but beyond that when we saw more details about the system it became clear where the problem would arise.

    A lot of people like to pretend wow players won't act the way they have acted for 15 years already and it confounds me. When we had the old talent trees you never saw massive differences between specs. WoW players will always copy paste whatever the top players use making this "choice" irrelevant and simply an added annoyance to people who want to enjoy more then one aspect of the game.

  12. #62492
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    It literally wasn't though. That is my point. It was """"the best"""" to people who heard some random person (incorrectly) claim it was broken and instead of thinking critically and realizing it wasn't even all that unusually strong in the situations favorable to it, they started parroting that it was the best and only choice. Even in its unnerfed state, it being the best, or even good, for a given class (the entire argument for which largely ignored the entire soulbind and class ability side) was a complete toss up.

    What mage trying to optimize would be dumb enough to take Venthyr for Door of Shadows when at the time it was seen as a huge power loss for shit they could already do with blink and invis? What rogue would even remotely be interested when they can do everything it can do with grappling hook and also have stealth? What M+ leader would be dumb enough to sit waiting for 5 venthyr instead of picking up one rogue?

    The knee jerk here was nerfing it to calm people's misguided hysteria that somehow a shitty 35 yard teleport was going to break the entire game--as if what it does can't already be done by existing class mechanics without the increased risk of proximity pulling or need for every member of the party to be the same covenant.
    It was still a skip on top of those mechanics. You guys/gals keep trying to justify it with “oh it was nerfed,” or “other classes already gave this,” but fail to realize this was an extra ability that allowed every class to do it as well as allowing every class to do it in addition to the other advantages in a group.
    The fact it was changed shows the knee jerk reaction was still correct. If it hadn’t been changed and lost traction as the strongest ability then you would be absolutely correct. It didn’t change though until after it got nerfed which just goes to strengthen the whole concept of it being the best just because of the movement ability it gave.

  13. #62493
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    It was still a skip on top of those mechanics. You guys/gals keep trying to justify it with “oh it was nerfed,” or “other classes already gave this,” but fail to realize this was an extra ability that allowed every class to do it as well as allowing every class to do it in addition to the other advantages in a group.
    The fact it was changed shows the knee jerk reaction was still correct. If it hadn’t been changed and lost traction as the strongest ability then you would be absolutely correct. It didn’t change though until after it got nerfed which just goes to strengthen the whole concept of it being the best just because of the movement ability it gave.
    There is no skip """""on top of those mechanics""""". You already run up against the forces percentage with one rogue in your party. Everyone being able to slowly skip more mobs doesn't do anything for you when you literally cannot skip those mobs because you need to kill them.

    It's not good. It has never been amazing. It's an ability that did well:
    -with a specific soulbind
    -and when you're not one of several classes for whom it's nearly useless
    -and when you don't have a rogue in your party
    -and when you aren't taking a large DPS loss to take it over other covenants
    -and when you find yourself needing to skip mobs but don't need them for forces
    -and when mobs are clustered tight together with nothing beyond them, because 35 yards is hugging right up against proximity aggro on the front and back

    It was never a big problem. People just sheeped their way into thinking it was. That's why Blizzard ignored the basic spell and went straight at the instant cast (a thing that means very little for m+ skipping, if anything the charges make it a stronger skipping tool, so where are all the people insisting it's mandatory now?)
    Last edited by Hitei; 2020-09-20 at 01:44 PM.

  14. #62494
    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    I mean...no?

    I think you misunderstand the situation and I don't really blame you for that unless you play at a fairly high level it doesn't effect you. The issue with covenants is that they are in practice just another talent row. You have your single target talent, your aoe talent, and your survivability talent, and your useless bencher talent.

    What people got up in arms about is that at higher levels you are going to see massive disparities depending on what progression path you effectively lock yourself into. You will either be raiding, mythic+pushing or pvping. You can't effectively do more then one for most classes with this system as each values extremely different forms of dmg ( raiding sustained dmg, mythic plus aoe, PvP burst survivability). People assumed that venthyr would win because of how overwhelmingly powerful blink is but beyond that when we saw more details about the system it became clear where the problem would arise.

    A lot of people like to pretend wow players won't act the way they have acted for 15 years already and it confounds me. When we had the old talent trees you never saw massive differences between specs. WoW players will always copy paste whatever the top players use making this "choice" irrelevant and simply an added annoyance to people who want to enjoy more then one aspect of the game.
    I fully understand the argument of the covenants being extra talents++, which is where the problem in a sense lies. I am simply pointing out that when the associated abilities were first shown there was a huge outcry of Venthyr supposedly being completely necessary for the highest level of play, which in turn would kill the system unless Blizzard made it so you could swap them like talents.

    Come now noone is arguing that something like that will happen because as was pointed out back then, it is simply untrue because of a variety of factors.

    The reason this is a good thing is that it removes an avenue of optimal minmaxing that has plagued the game by stifling creative choices. But now that covenants are set to prove that you do not always need 100% optimal talents, and indeed that if you want them you should work for them, we can instead wonder about what other creative things Blizzard might add in the future that might get shouted at excessively when it is first shown.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #62495

  16. #62496
    Bloodsail Admiral Gifdwarf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry123 View Post
    Pretty sure the cast time thingy was debunked back in Legion, could be wrong though.

  17. #62497
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry123 View Post
    It will be here before you know it. Chill
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

    Warrior-Magi

  18. #62498
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry123 View Post
    Oh my god the NPC casting thing means nothing. It was right once and thats it.

  19. #62499
    Now my guild is on a break until prepatch, they can put it on the 19th for all I care

  20. #62500
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    It will be here before you know it. Chill
    This is 2020, you fool! A week lasts years!

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