9.0 General Discussion

[TheFirstOnes]

Oh, but "she wasn't allowed to die" is a clear path towards excusing the tree burning (to fake being ally with Jailer) and tearing up hole to SL (she just wanted to set herself free).

That's not our argument. She's clearly doing all of this cause she wants to, yes. However, she's also being used by the Jailer without her full on knowledge of it, and it's clear just by looking at the Jailer's description and what he's done throughout WoW's lore (Especially with the whole potential "dreadlord" thing).

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Just popping in to remind people Illidan has still killed more innocent people than Sylvanas & they still portrayed him as a Christ-like figure in Legion. And that was not a redemption story: Illidan decided 10,000 years ago he was going to join the legion in order to destroy it. And he did that.

You might feel differently about Sylvanas & Illidan than the developers but that still happened.

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Sylvanas dies. Jailer sends someone to resurrect her. Sylvanas dies. Jailer sends someone to resurrect her. Sylvanas dies. Jailer sends someone resurrect her.

That's not a choice.

It's the myth of Sisyphus. Sisyphus can't choose to ignore the boulder.

Well, she only had the choice between suffering in the Maw, or that. No one said it was a choice of her will.

[Sondrelk]

Nah, he's just saying they think the hard cut at the end is probably the better solution to the dissonance for the next 2 years.

That would be my guess as well. Blizzard knows that a common complain is having all the systems players sunk time into be removed at the beginning of the next expansion, so they intend to have it stick around like how the HoA sticks around even after BfA, just not useable in the new areas. They likely thought that making that distinction clear at the beginning would be better than a hard cut at the end.

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So anyways, any bets on what could happen today seeing as we are this close to release?

[Greyfang]

That would be my guess as well. Blizzard knows that a common complain is having all the systems players sunk time into be removed at the beginning of the next expansion, so they intend to have it stick around like how the HoA sticks around even after BfA, just not useable in the new areas. They likely thought that making that distinction clear at the beginning would be better than a hard cut at the end.

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So anyways, any bets on what could happen today seeing as we are this close to release?

I think we're not getting anything new this week. I do believe if there's a CG cinematic, they'll release it with the new release date, but they're not ready yet.

[Sondrelk]

I think we're not getting anything new this week. I do believe if there's a CG cinematic, they'll release it with the new release date, but they're not ready yet.

There should a release candidate, which usually has at least some changes.

Speaking of, did anyone else notice how the PTR no longer shows any of the Shadowlands content like Raids, Dungeons or even available transmog? Only thing I was able to check from the new expansion was the map.
Wonder if that is a new change in place for when Blizzard wants something to be a surprise, or whether they just did it to hide the things that are not 100% done yet.

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Something I have completely neglected to test though.
Does the paragon cache from BfA factions still give as much gold as they do now? Would feel compelled to keep farming the reuptation at least until the rep buff wears off if that is the case.

[TigTone]

That art book released some very nice lore.(wowhead)

More info about the first ones and Zovaal and the lich king helm.

First we used to say the helm changed bolvar but it was the flames of life that kept him from becoming a pawn to Zovaal.

Second the first ones made Maldraxxus to protect all of shadowlands.

I’m starting to think my guess about Zovaal beings Warcrafts version of Lucifer may be right.

Zovaal may have been a first one.

[Nagawithlegs]

That art book released some very nice lore.

More info about the first ones and Zovaal and the lich king helm.

First we used to say the helm changed bolvar but it was the flames of life that kept him from becoming a pawn to Zovaal.

Second the first ones made Maldraxxus to protect all of shadowlands.

I’m starting to think my guess about Zovaal beings Warcrafts version of Lucifer.

I wonder if we're finally going to get lore on what exactly is going on with the Red Dragonflight fire and its placement in the cosmology. It doesn't really fit in with the cosmo chart (as Ysera and the Dream are more in tune with the Life Aspect, at least thematically).

Why does fire = life? Where does this come from? Elune?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

That art book released some very nice lore.(wowhead)

More info about the first ones and Zovaal and the lich king helm.

First we used to say the helm changed bolvar but it was the flames of life that kept him from becoming a pawn to Zovaal.

Second the first ones made Maldraxxus to protect all of shadowlands.

I’m starting to think my guess about Zovaal beings Warcrafts version of Lucifer may be right.

Zovaal may have been a first one.

I think the helm is just in general very corruptive.

[Sondrelk]

That art book released some very nice lore.(wowhead)

More info about the first ones and Zovaal and the lich king helm.

First we used to say the helm changed bolvar but it was the flames of life that kept him from becoming a pawn to Zovaal.

Second the first ones made Maldraxxus to protect all of shadowlands.

I’m starting to think my guess about Zovaal beings Warcrafts version of Lucifer may be right.

Zovaal may have been a first one.

On a meta level I find the idea that the Jailer was disappointed Bolvar didnt turn to mean that it might have been Bolvar that was originally intended to go evil. Would certainly have fit quite well for how he acted in Legion especially. I was confident Blizzard intended him to turn in a really dark and tragic twist where his heroic qualities had been finally extinguished by the Helm of Domination.

[TigTone]

I wonder if we're finally going to get lore on what exactly is going on with the Red Dragonflight fire and its placement in the cosmology. It doesn't really fit in with the cosmo chart (as Ysera and the Dream are more in tune with the Life Aspect, at least thematically).

Why does fire = life? Where does this come from? Elune?

That’s my question too. Does it represent the Willpower of life?

I can’t recall which titan/keeper blessed the red dragon flight.

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I think the helm is just in general very corruptive.

Imo the new lore suggests it’s Zovaals direct link to the living universe.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

On a meta level I find the idea that the Jailer was disappointed Bolvar didnt turn to mean that it might have been Bolvar that was originally intended to go evil. Would certainly have fit quite well for how he acted in Legion especially. I was confident Blizzard intended him to turn in a really dark and tragic twist where his heroic qualities had been finally extinguished by the Helm of Domination.

I think thats still the plan or rather he isn't going to be the same Bolvar from the Wrathgate.

Imo the new lore suggests it’s Zovaals direct link to the living universe.

I mean I figured that to since SL announcement but I didn't think it was complete control, just basically having a little devil next to them trying to push them to do naughty things. Just me though I always liked the idea that the Helm and Frostmourne were just incredibly corrupting items.

I can’t recall which titan/keeper blessed the red dragon flight.

Eonar would be the Titan to do that but..... since its the keepers...Freya maybe?

[Sondrelk]

That’s my question too. Does it represent the Willpower of life?

I can’t recall witch titan/keeper blessed the red dragon flight.

The realm of Life is certainly far more interesting now that we have had some time to wonder what exactly it is. Even more so when the Nathrezim book mentioned how only Life seemed impenetrable, which again begs the question of where, or even what the realm of Life.

If i was to put my expansion speculation hat on I would imagine that the idea of a realm of Life could be what actually gives us an Emerald Dream expansion. I always found just the Emerald Dream on its own to be a pretty thin concept, but if Blizzard could expand on it with more on what the purpose of it is then I imagine it could work.

[formerShandalay]

I wonder if we're finally going to get lore on what exactly is going on with the Red Dragonflight fire and its placement in the cosmology. It doesn't really fit in with the cosmo chart (as Ysera and the Dream are more in tune with the Life Aspect, at least thematically).

Why does fire = life? Where does this come from? Elune?

I think it has to do with 'Sun'. We have not seen a representation of the universal Sun aspect on Azeroth yet, but I do think it has to be somewhere (I think it might currently be dead and being re-incarnated or something like that ^^), but the sun is kind of the life-giver in nature. Although in the case of Life it might be that it's both Sun and Moon, just because Life is quite a universal force in WoW, with something like tides, water in general, sleep, rest, the night, cold of winter and these things falling into the Moon's responsibility and things like growth, flowers, warmth, maybe even fire (as in wildfires) falling into the Sun's responsibility. The balance between both make up the whole range of 'life' and its cycle (probably even including death, because that's kind of part of life too^^).

[Sondrelk]

I think thats still the plan or rather he isn't going to be the same Bolvar from the Wrathgate.






I mean I figured that to since SL announcement but I didn't think it was complete control, just basically having a little devil next to them trying to push them to do naughty things. Just me though I always liked the idea that the Helm and Frostmourne were just incredibly corrupting items.




Eonar would be the Titan to do that but..... since its the keepers...Freya maybe?

I think the idea of Bolvar turnign kinda died when Sylvanas fought him. If he is to turn then it would likely require him ot be recaptured and turned by the Jailer or Sylvanas.
The idea of him turning only really worked when we could assume it was because of the Helm, removing that out would require either a change in how the Helm is supposed to work, or worse still a blatant assassination of Bolvars character.

[Nagawithlegs]

If i was to put my expansion speculation hat on I would imagine that the idea of a realm of Life could be what actually gives us an Emerald Dream expansion. I always found just the Emerald Dream on its own to be a pretty thin concept, but if Blizzard could expand on it with more on what the purpose of it is then I imagine it could work.

I think what was bogging them down on an Emerald Dream expansion is that, according to old lore, it was straight up a copy (but nicer!) version of Azeroth. Hence why the only time we ever saw the Dream proper in Legion (instead of a phased part of a quest or something like that) was either it being fucked up and interesting looking or small areas they figured out how to make look mystical (the dreamway and the purified Rift of Aln or whatever that area is).

A nature-themed expansion with weird alien worlds and planes is totally possible if we go into the life realm but it makes sense why Blizz didn't feel the old idea of the Dream made for a good expansion.

They just need to clarify that the "Emerald Dream" is the Life realm copy of Azeroth the titans made and that there is a greater plane of Life we have yet to explore. Which is absolutely what is being communicated but they need to outright say it.

[Sondrelk]

I think what was bogging them down on an Emerald Dream expansion is that, according to old lore, it was straight up a copy (but nicer!) version of Azeroth. Hence why the only time we ever saw the Dream proper in Legion (instead of a phased part of a quest or something like that) was either it being fucked up and interesting looking or small areas they figured out how to make look mystical (the dreamway and the purified Rift of Aln or whatever that area is).

A nature-themed expansion with weird alien worlds and planes is totally possible if we go into the life realm but it makes sense why Blizz didn't feel the old idea of the Dream made for a good expansion.

They just need to clarify that the "Emerald Dream" is the Life realm copy of Azeroth the titans made and that there is a greater plane of Life we have yet to explore.

I imagine what they could do would be to give an explanation that would go something like: "The Emerald Dream is tapping into the realm of Life and the primordial forces there" Or perhaps more elaborately that the Emerald Dream is a junction in a sense between the regular world, the Shadowlands and the Realm of Life.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think the idea of Bolvar turnign kinda died when Sylvanas fought him. If he is to turn then it would likely require him ot be recaptured and turned by the Jailer or Sylvanas.
The idea of him turning only really worked when we could assume it was because of the Helm, removing that out would require either a change in how the Helm is supposed to work, or worse still a blatant assassination of Bolvars character.

Even without the helm constantly on him(And since we see a reforged one I guess thats important) he's likely much more ruthless. Hes not going to fight us persay but he(Theorizing) would do things that we aren't gonna like even if it benefits Azeroth.

I imagine what they could do would be to give an explanation that would go something like: "The Emerald Dream is tapping into the realm of Life and the primordial forces there" Or perhaps more elaborately that the Emerald Dream is a junction in a sense between the regular world, the Shadowlands and the Realm of Life.

I would say...what would we see there but.... I got nothing and yet Blizzard is creative enough to be diverse enough.

[Nagawithlegs]

I imagine what they could do would be to give an explanation that would go something like: "The Emerald Dream is tapping into the realm of Life and the primordial forces there" Or perhaps more elaborately that the Emerald Dream is a junction in a sense between the regular world, the Shadowlands and the Realm of Life.

Or, it's a pocket dimension created by Freya using energies from the Life realm (I'm pretty sure that may be canon already), the same way that Bwonsamdi/Mueh'zala made De Other Side and Helya made Helheim using Ardenweald/Maldraxxus magic respectively.

The Helya/Maldraxxus thing is not confirmed but I'd say the Guarm being native to Maldraxxus and the similar color schemes/way the Helajar operate implies its Maldraxxus anima.

[Raetary]

Why does fire = life? Where does this come from? Elune?

It comes from Eonar.

[Nagawithlegs]

It comes from Eonar.

Who likely comes from Elunaria, so...

[formerShandalay]

From what I gathered in the interview with Ion, where he talked about the different 'pantheons', he called the Titans the Pantheon of Order and said we would meet another Pantheon in the Shadowlands, the Pantheon of Death.
Eonar is a Titan, so she is not of the life realm, she is part of the Pantheon of Order. Ordering life may be her prime responsiblity, but Life is not her origin. Her origin is Order.