1. #65301
    Theres a difference between listening to feedback and letting the players create the game.

    And theres too much of the latter recently.

  2. #65302
    this is probably the prepatch im least hyped about.

    Hard to feel hyped when i dont even know when expansion is coming out.

  3. #65303
    Battle with Turalyon and Alleria in Stormwind so awesome, alliance now has a strong leader. Not like Wussduin cast one "penis" spell that deals 0 damage

  4. #65304
    Herald of the Titans Valysar's Avatar
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    LFG is not available if you're not lvl 50 ... So, how do alts (lvl 10-49) kill bosses from assaults on empty servers ...

  5. #65305
    Stood in the Fire Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valysar View Post
    LFG is not available if you're not lvl 50 ... So, how do alts (lvl 10-49) kill bosses from assaults on empty servers ...
    There are still empty servers after the merges?^^

  6. #65306
    Herald of the Titans Valysar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    There are still empty servers after the merges?^^
    Well, even on big servers. I waited 10min in front of a boss before seeing someone attacking him, even making announcements on the /1. I imagine everyone is eating at this time (my server is in the top 3 of french servers, so...)

  7. #65307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kereberus View Post
    I still don't understand this drama.
    It's because it's bullshit but some people just love it because it's drama and it feeds into their biases.

    Unlike almost everyone here, I suspect, I have participated in a private official forum with devs for an MMORPG (albeit a long time ago).

    Some of the people were invited because they had good criticisms and seemed reasonable and analytical, some because they were prominent players or influential theorycrafters (which is incredibly different from being a good critic).

    The latter two groups were, frankly, extremely temperamental. Some of them, if the devs didn't agree, would get very upset, and yeah I saw accusations that devs were being condescending and so on, and it was bullshit.

    The reality is that when someone is wrong you can only tell them that so many ways. If you try to stay polite, eventually it can seem condescending because they're being rude and you're having to be all "that's nice dear". If you don't stay polite, you get called rude.

    So these claims of people being "condescending and rude" sounds exactly like the way spurned players and theorycrafters reacted to dev posts in the MMORPG I did this with (not sure I can say which and too lazy to dig up documents before you ask, I daresay careful study of my posts could work it out).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Is there anyone who is really surprised that the devs don't actually care about feedback?

    It has been very clear for the past several expansions.
    They obviously do listen to feedback, pretty constantly.

    People believe that they don't because of confirmation bias. Every time Blizzard do listen to feedback you agree with it's immediately forgotten. Every time they don't listen to feedback you agree with, you write to into your book of grudges and remember it forever (you in the general sense). You even remember it after they fix it.

    Everyone does this a bit, I'll give an example. But some people also note when they do listen, and don't immediately forget it. They seem to be in the minority on WoW forums though.

    Anyway you say "for the past several expansions" which shows the confirmation bias. They've been listening to some stuff and ignoring other stuff since Vanilla. If anything they listen better now.

    In Vanilla, for example, Tom Chilton brought in the initial form of the honor system, the legendary "honor grind", which meant that depending on what server you were on, the only way to get max honor rank was to take 2-6 weeks off work and play 12+ hours a day. And you had to arrange it with other players so no one else was trying it at the same time.

    There were numerous other flaws too.

    All of these flaws were spotted by players. One particularly reasonable player laid out every problem that would occur. Tom Chilton came to the forums and totally rubbished him and implied it was all bullshit Mystic Meg predictions (not in those words).

    Obviously the poster was entirely correct and they redid the system later to fix the issues.

    Then pretty much the same thing happened with the initial design of arenas in TBC.

    So it's not new. But people act as if it is because they only remember when it annoyed them, but delude themselves into thinking they have a good overview of how much it happens.

    And again, if anything, Blizzard listen far more now than they ever did before. In the "good old days" people go on about, whether that's Vanilla, Wrath, MoP, whenever, tons of good feedback was ignored. And some was listened to.

    There's also the pipeline issue. People think Blizzard ignored feedback but in fact it takes the. X months to understand, act on, test and implement the results of the feedback.

    I'm actually surprised so many people are so dumb re pipeline stuff, because surely anyone in a responsible position at work will have seen this sort of thing in their job. I guess a lot of loud WoW players are young or don't work though.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-10-17 at 11:23 AM.

  8. #65308
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Is there anyone who is really surprised that the devs don't actually care about feedback?

    It has been very clear for the past several expansions.
    Yeeee, cuz SL beta showed us they don't care about it, right?
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  9. #65309
    Elemental Lord Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Yeeee, cuz SL beta showed us they don't care about it, right?
    Covenants and conduits are still ass-backwards, overtly complicated systems for systems' sake.

    They have chosen their hill to die on for now. It will be several patches of fixing covenants instead of making new content for the game.

  10. #65310
    Sorry to jump in, but it seemed easier than making a new thread. Has anyone else noticed as of pre-patch you no longer earn Echoes of Ny'alotha? I was hoping to buy an essence or two for my new character, but there doesn't seem to be a way to earn them. You can bet your ass I won't be getting them like I did for my main.

  11. #65311
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Covenants and conduits are still ass-backwards, overtly complicated systems for systems' sake.

    They have chosen their hill to die on for now. It will be several patches of fixing covenants instead of making new content for the game.
    "Let gear be gear", Torghast Torments, conduits not getting destroyed, multiple class changes with Shadow rework on top, multiple Nathria boss changes, SL postpone and many more. Everything due to feedback. So ye, they totally don't listen to it, because they didn't change enough core SL system, even when they explicitly said they will relax it if it won't work live. And ye, defo we wont get any new content cuz fixing, just like in BfA, eh?
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2020-10-17 at 12:28 PM.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  12. #65312
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    "Let gear be gear", Torghast Torments, conduits not getting destroyed, multiple class changes with Shadow rework on top, multiple Nathria boss changes, SL postpone and many more. Everything due to feedback. So ye, they totally don't listen to it, because they didn't change enough core SL system, even when they explicitly said they will relax it if it won't work live. And ye, defo we wont get any new content cuz fixing, just like in BfA, eh?
    Nah, they're "not listening" because they aren't changing the poster's one pet peeve.

  13. #65313
    The problem with bad feedback is one that is in a sense self-perpetuating as well.
    Say Blizzard introduces something new, it gets criticism, said criticism snowballs out of control and what was once a reasonable argument has now devolved into the playerbase mindlessly parroting that said new thing is fundamentally broken or breaks the game in some way.

    If you were a developer, would you listen to that feedback? Absolutely noone benefits from feedback that amounts to "X is bad because I said so/don't like it". This means that the developers might whether consciously or not group all feedback about this one thing into the same pile of useless feedback, instead moving on to a different subject.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The debate is now meaningless on both sides, because neither is willing to back down on what they want for the game, and very little constructive feedback comes through, perpetuating the cycle.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #65314
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry123 View Post
    Battle with Turalyon and Alleria in Stormwind so awesome, alliance now has a strong leader. Not like Wussduin cast one "penis" spell that deals 0 damage
    This is very childish dude....
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

    Warrior-Magi

  15. #65315
    Elemental Lord Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    And ye, defo we wont get any new content cuz fixing, just like in BfA, eh?
    Precisely like BFA. The Patch cycle was delayed by months, and content itself was recycled and lackluster, because they wasted so much dev time fixing Azerite with new Systems on top of Systems on top of Systems.

  16. #65316
    Herald of the Titans Izalla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    This is very childish dude....
    Literally everything he posts is him whining about Anduin and calling him names. Every time I see a post/thread insulting Anduin I assume it's made by him and I'm hardly ever wrong.
    give up dat booty
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendra View Post
    <3
    For the matriarchy.

  17. #65317
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The problem with bad feedback is one that is in a sense self-perpetuating as well.
    Say Blizzard introduces something new, it gets criticism, said criticism snowballs out of control and what was once a reasonable argument has now devolved into the playerbase mindlessly parroting that said new thing is fundamentally broken or breaks the game in some way.

    If you were a developer, would you listen to that feedback? Absolutely noone benefits from feedback that amounts to "X is bad because I said so/don't like it". This means that the developers might whether consciously or not group all feedback about this one thing into the same pile of useless feedback, instead moving on to a different subject.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The debate is now meaningless on both sides, because neither is willing to back down on what they want for the game, and very little constructive feedback comes through, perpetuating the cycle.
    based on everything being linked on twitter i can only say its better now than it was with celestalon apparently
    also the devs favored feedback covering their main class and accused the theorycrafters of making up things like the 2 minute S2M
    legion
    devs:heres shaman changes
    theorycrafters: shaman is in a bad spot
    devs: you dont know what you are talking about
    *legion launches*
    players: shamans are in a bad spot
    devs: we agree and will work on it
    8.3
    devs:see we fixed shamans

    celestalon: hey brewmasters if you wanna mitigate damage just roll backwards (i had to include that one)

    then there was a discussion about some talent where players said it was a bad talent and the dev just said "dont use it then" and they called the players in the forums "the peanut gallery" and accused the players of faking math


    im not very hopeful about how some classes will work in shadowlands but i hope the devs that understand where players come from are the majority

  18. #65318
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I mean feedback takes time to be taken into consideration. and simplfying like this isn't really helping. Have to wonder if Blizzard delayed BFA would it still be the same. I dunno
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

    Warrior-Magi

  19. #65319
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I mean feedback takes time to be taken into consideration. and simplfying like this isn't really helping. Have to wonder if Blizzard delayed BFA would it still be the same. I dunno
    in a lot of cases from what is being shared that isnt even simplified

    concerns about classes and talents and their performance were being shared and devs are in those forums telling players "ok dont choose that talent, those numbers arent possible, that boss is killable"

    if you told me a car had a flat tire and i told you that since you arent a mechanic you dont know what you are talking about and waited until the tire blew to agree with you taht isnt a problem with communication its a problem with being stubborn

    add the fact that one of the devs was apparently letting the fact he was a class developer get to his head while raiding and sucked at his class while telling players how the class worked...yeah no



    on the topic of bfa though?? i dont think a delay would ahve fixed the issues
    you had azerite traits that were 80% passive to the point you wouldnt notice them
    you had classes that needed them to function
    the armor system itself was flawed
    the best way to farm azerite was islands even though in legion AP was found everywhere so there was never really a best way
    honestly what we had in 8.3 was what we would have had at launch maybe if they acted on feedback but as we can see now the developers are actually stubborn

  20. #65320
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Theres a difference between listening to feedback and letting the players create the game.

    And theres too much of the latter recently.
    like what, you must be joking

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