1. #65321
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    so from the stuff mag is tweeting im wondering if the devs on those forums being very dismissive (a tweet about how the water change has been in the SL beta since back in alpha and therefore its not an actual issue) are the same from the BfA instances of "hey we know we changed the m+ cache weeks before launch but nobody complained then so youre wrong if youre angry" which led to residuum

    or the one telling players in a thread about TF that they only had a problem with it because others are getting gear...i am not even surprised lol

    we keep getting told communication is going to be a big focus of theirs and they want to do better and over the last 6 years of hearing it the only thing we have been getting is this
    blizz: heres a boat
    players: the boat has a hole in it so it will sink
    blizz: it wont sink you are wrong and that feedback isnt useful
    *boat sinks*
    blizz: we agree with your feedback

    - - - Updated - - -



    systems dev says masses having access to theorycrafting makes a lot of feedback meaningless (they tried using bigger words and circle speak)

    theorycrafter that had access to private theorycraft forums talked abouthow it started out great and we saw the results in MoP and WoD design
    then in legion the feedback broke down
    now theres theorycrafting forums and an influencer discord
    there are multiple instances of the devs posting on the forums saying things like "top end players are the problem because they figure out the best talents and then discords and website tell players what the best choice is and it becomes socially acceptable to choose the best choice only" and also "the water change ahs been in since alpha so being upset doesnt make sense" along with other dismissive and condescending posts making the players, who spend their time to help make the game better for 0 compensation and just because they like it, feel like shit.
    I do wish the example used wasn't talents. Because on the matter of talents I 100% agree with that dev saying the problem is theorycrafters.

    But in a more general sense the fact that actual number-crunchers are ignored in, presumably, favor of a Discord populated by the Youtube Outrage Machine explains a lot about why the game's design lashes about wildly and seems to only get further stripped-down and dumbed-down every patch. The numbers guys are telling them how to fix what they have, the "Influencers" are just screaming "RIP CORD RIP CORD"
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  2. #65322
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I do wish the example used wasn't talents. Because on the matter of talents I 100% agree with that dev saying the problem is theorycrafters.

    But in a more general sense the fact that actual number-crunchers are ignored in, presumably, favor of a Discord populated by the Youtube Outrage Machine explains a lot about why the game's design lashes about wildly and seems to only get further stripped-down and dumbed-down every patch. The numbers guys are telling them how to fix what they have, the "Influencers" are just screaming "RIP CORD RIP CORD"
    "this talent will never be used ebcause it doesn't feel good"
    should not get the response "then dont use it" because that is how you get a dead talent

    well with influencers you have two sets
    1. the guys that understand numbers and understand how the systems work while effecting those numbers
    2. the guys that dont care about the numbers and only QoL


    so the big guys that raid mythic look at it like "hey this doesnt work right here are the numbers. Only 18% of azerite traits effect gameplay. You have different covenant abilities that work differently and you cant balance an AoE ability with a ST burst ability no matter how you try." and people like bellular or T&E are like "we dont understand how the system effects us but it doesnt feel good"

    im also not seeing the outrage machine people talk about outside of the fringe creators like heelz which nobody should take seriously
    Last edited by zantheus1993; 2020-10-17 at 06:09 PM.

  3. #65323
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I do wish the example used wasn't talents. Because on the matter of talents I 100% agree with that dev saying the problem is theorycrafters.
    i don't think is rly a problem with theorycrafters about talents when most of time 2 of the talents in a row are absolutely dogshit.

    If the devs made talents more balanced, or at least don't differ that much in dps, there would not be a problem on that part, at least not like it is now..

  4. #65324
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i don't think is rly a problem with theorycrafters about talents when most of time 2 of the talents in a row are absolutely dogshit.

    If the devs made talents more balanced, or at least don't differ that much in dps, there would not be a problem on that part, at least not like it is now..
    Yeah with the current system a lot of the problem is Blizz can't balance tiers to save their life. I think we're stuck with the current system though because Blizz sees the ghost of IcyVeins behind every tree-like system.
    9.0 Speculation Thread #1 Leakbuster
    It is my belief when all is said and done we will regard Legion as the beginning of the end.
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  5. #65325
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Yeah with the current system a lot of the problem is Blizz can't balance tiers to save their life. I think we're stuck with the current system though because Blizz sees the ghost of IcyVeins behind every tree-like system.
    Honestly I do like the system of
    Talents you can't change (Shadowlands covenants)
    Talents its inconvenient to change (Shadowlands Talents)
    Talents you can change at will (Shadowlands Legendaries)

    But maybe if they just went back to calling these talents, I do miss having legendary equipment tied to the story that you advance over time

  6. #65326
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Yeah with the current system a lot of the problem is Blizz can't balance tiers to save their life. I think we're stuck with the current system though because Blizz sees the ghost of IcyVeins behind every tree-like system.
    Talents are part of Class design so....yeah class design which are covanents so thats where you look for some class design. I don't think we need to regurgitate this stuff over and over, it gets dull and demoralizing and I'm sure there's more to the story behind the scenes.


    TLDR: Devs sometimes you'll end up being wrong...or right, its ok to be wrong. And..yes Blizzard does listen clearly there is some understanding going on and the wow team isn't a hivemind, there could be 1 or 2 people that are POSSIBLY(Emphasis on possibly) being way too egotistical.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2020-10-17 at 06:45 PM.
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  7. #65327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I do wish the example used wasn't talents. Because on the matter of talents I 100% agree with that dev saying the problem is theorycrafters.

    But in a more general sense the fact that actual number-crunchers are ignored in, presumably, favor of a Discord populated by the Youtube Outrage Machine explains a lot about why the game's design lashes about wildly and seems to only get further stripped-down and dumbed-down every patch. The numbers guys are telling them how to fix what they have, the "Influencers" are just screaming "RIP CORD RIP CORD"
    This is total nonsense because you're acting like the internet outrage machine people and numbers people are different people.

    That's completely untrue. Just completely.

    It was true once, like fucking TEN YEARS AGO but now? No. Four years ago? No.

    Now the "numbers people" are part of the same machine. Sometimes it's a outrage person just using numbers, either their own or someone else's, sometimes it's a numbers person making a really dubious representation of their numbers in order to get clicks or views or talked about or just to convince Blizzard to buff their spec, but it's the same deal now.

    TLDR: the idea that independent, unbiased, purely helpful and honest "numbers people" exist is a fantasy.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-10-17 at 11:54 PM.

  8. #65328
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    This is total nonsense because you're acting like the internet outrage machine people and numbers people are different people.

    That's completely untrue. Just completely.

    It was true once, like fucking TEN YEARS AGO but now? No. Four years ago? No.

    Now the "numbers people" are part of the same machine. Sometimes it's a outrage person just using numbers, either their own or someone else's, sometimes it's a numbers person making a really dubious representation of their numbers in order to get clicks or views or talked about or just to convince Blizzard to buff their spec, but it's the same deal now.

    TLDR: the idea that independent, unbiased, purely helpful and honest "numbers people" exist is a fantasy.
    the outrage seems to be aimed at the streamers from players instead of from the streamers to the game devs
    ive seen more threads saying "influencers cry to change the game and ruin it" more than i have seen a streamer sit on their stream complaining about how one aspect of the game absolutely needs to change


    the theory crafters dont really take part in either but the fact blizzard condescends to the theory crafters while sending influencer thank you packs is kinda dumb

  9. #65329
    Blizzard isn't condescending enough to theorycrafters IMO. It's the MMO equivalent of people who suck at golf and try and convince their party that its because their clubs are cheap. Behaving like that in real life will make people roll their eyes at you and think you are a petulant child, which is not surprisingly how I feel about theorycrafters.

  10. #65330
    Bloodsail Admiral Gifdwarf's Avatar
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    There is nothing wrong with minmaxing or theorycrafting, it's only bad when the game changes and bends to their will.

  11. #65331
    Minmaxers become an issues when they force the game to become more about math rather than feel and gameplay fun.

  12. #65332
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Min maxing really shouldn't get in the way of fun gameplay this includes anything new ideas Blizzard tries. Covanents though..if it was just theme and the sets you'd get, it would be fine.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

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  13. #65333
    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    Minmaxers become an issues when they force the game to become more about math rather than feel and gameplay fun.
    The minmax crowd also want the feel & gameplay to be enjoyable. Ain't no Demon Hunter theorycrafters jumping around with glee that the one button spec is mathematically the best right now

  14. #65334
    Class tuning is something I have always wondered about. I'm sure most of it goes above my head and I would be unable to tackle it, but I still think it can be better.

    I have built a real time data streaming process. The technology behind this process had six 'nobs and levers' that could be adjusted to make the process work more efficiently. We studied data volumes and were able to tune the process to work most efficiently within 4 windows based on data volumes. It took a few months, but it was done.

    It is all just numbers. Lost of complex algorithms, but just numbers. Numbers can be tweaked. They should be able to modify things to improve balance. There are great tools built by the community. Surely they have better or could use the same to help.

    I believe from a budgetary POV, they don't dedicate the resources to balancing. I don't think class balance is a full time job for anyone. It is just a small step in their development process.
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  15. #65335
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    The minmax crowd also want the feel & gameplay to be enjoyable. Ain't no Demon Hunter theorycrafters jumping around with glee that the one button spec is mathematically the best right now
    Those aren't the same people. There's a difference between determining the theoretical best option and actively attempting to use them.

  16. #65336
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Those aren't the same people. There's a difference between determining the theoretical best option and actively attempting to use them.
    While there's overlap between the two, you're right, most minmaxers aren't theorycrafters & instead rely on the testing of others to find what's best.

    Still, I'd argue when a build like the current DH one ends up being the best of the bunch, that's the fault of balance rather than a fault of the community for making use of it. Is it fun? Not really, but it's more fun than holding 19 other people back. Of course that's not an issue now the expansion is over (& nor is it an issue for anyone raiding LFR through Heroic), but who knows what Castle Nathria will hold.

  17. #65337
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    the outrage seems to be aimed at the streamers from players instead of from the streamers to the game devs
    ive seen more threads saying "influencers cry to change the game and ruin it" more than i have seen a streamer sit on their stream complaining about how one aspect of the game absolutely needs to change


    the theory crafters dont really take part in either but the fact blizzard condescends to the theory crafters while sending influencer thank you packs is kinda dumb
    I don't think that's what happens, though. All we have is whinging from a few self-proclaimed theorycrafters, who frankly, seem like the same Internet Outrage Squad that was being complained about.

    And the specific complaint of "condescending and rude" is one that rings totally false and bullshit to me. I've seen exactly the sort of forum I presume they're discussing, and I've seen people claim that they're being condescended to, when they simply are not, but they're just being politely told they're wrong. Same with rudeness - some people can't handle being told they're not right, and are often extremely rude themselves, but get incredibly upset if anyone is even mildly rude back (for evidence see a shit-ton of posts on this forum).

    So you're just spreading cheap bullshit drama, frankly.

  18. #65338
    Quote Originally Posted by spleen1015 View Post
    Class tuning is something I have always wondered about. I'm sure most of it goes above my head and I would be unable to tackle it, but I still think it can be better.

    I have built a real time data streaming process. The technology behind this process had six 'nobs and levers' that could be adjusted to make the process work more efficiently. We studied data volumes and were able to tune the process to work most efficiently within 4 windows based on data volumes. It took a few months, but it was done.

    It is all just numbers. Lost of complex algorithms, but just numbers. Numbers can be tweaked. They should be able to modify things to improve balance. There are great tools built by the community. Surely they have better or could use the same to help.

    I believe from a budgetary POV, they don't dedicate the resources to balancing. I don't think class balance is a full time job for anyone. It is just a small step in their development process.
    I am sure Blizzard commits an absolutely massive amount of time to balancing actually. The problem is that WoW has become so focused on perfect balance, and the classes need widly different things to be good, enough so that the best they can do in most cases is tune that aura they added in Legion that simply changes how much damage is done.

    You have to consider for instance not just the numerical values, but also things like how some classes are more bursty, some classes being more dependent on stats, certain fights being better for classes and how some raids might have more of that kind of fight.
    Combine all these factors together and you end up with some classes being poorly tuned. Now Blizzard could always just tune the flat % knob more often, but I think the playerbase would react far more negatively to that than anything.

  19. #65339
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post

    there are multiple instances of the devs posting on the forums saying things like "top end players are the problem because they figure out the best talents and then discords and website tell players what the best choice is and it becomes socially acceptable to choose the best choice only"
    I don't necessarily agree or understand how this is framed as a wrong thing. Were there no sources of information we'd all be living in ignorance and playing builds that wouldn't be as effective.
    So how is having sources informing us on not only what are the best talents, but also what's wrong with the others a bad thing? Because it highlights flaws in class design?

  20. #65340
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    I don't necessarily agree or understand how this is framed as a wrong thing. Were there no sources of information we'd all be living in ignorance and playing builds that wouldn't be as effective.
    So how is having sources informing us on not only what are the best talents, but also what's wrong with the others a bad thing? Because it highlights flaws in class design?
    The idea is probably more that the theorycrafting often leads to the community parroting the same idea of a class being useless when that only applies to the draconian standards set by the world first community.
    Noone benefits from an endless stream of "my class sux, please fix". Especially not when the problem is just numerical. Theorycrafting detracts from the discussion on how the class plays, or what talents work as part of the class by taking up all the space in the public forum in a sense. The devs have repeatedly stated that when a large chunk of the feedback in non-constructive they simply need to tune it out, which leads to some salient parts being ignored in the confusion.

    Consider for a moment that you are a dev tasked with reading feedback on a class and 80% of the threads are titled something like "Warrior sucks balls", or "Hunter devs are incompetent". Would you want to read those? Or would you simply assume they are non-constructive and move on to something that seems like it has a point?
    It is likely that those first threads has SOME good feedback, but it likely isnt worth skimming through when most of the posts are talking about how they are on the bottom of meters instead of talking about actual problems with the class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    To maybe clarify a bit further.

    The problem is actually theorycrafters themselves. The problem is that most of hte playerbase cannot give contructive feedback to save their lives, instead parroting whatever problem that resonates the loudest, and class tuning is a really easy scapegoat, especially when theorycrafting is so readily available and minmaxing is expected in nearly all facets of gameplay due to the lack of meaningful choices.

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