1. #65341
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The idea is probably more that the theorycrafting often leads to the community parroting the same idea of a class being useless when that only applies to the draconian standards set by the world first community.
    Noone benefits from an endless stream of "my class sux, please fix". Especially not when the problem is just numerical. Theorycrafting detracts from the discussion on how the class plays, or what talents work as part of the class by taking up all the space in the public forum in a sense. The devs have repeatedly stated that when a large chunk of the feedback in non-constructive they simply need to tune it out, which leads to some salient parts being ignored in the confusion.

    Consider for a moment that you are a dev tasked with reading feedback on a class and 80% of the threads are titled something like "Warrior sucks balls", or "Hunter devs are incompetent". Would you want to read those? Or would you simply assume they are non-constructive and move on to something that seems like it has a point?
    It is likely that those first threads has SOME good feedback, but it likely isnt worth skimming through when most of the posts are talking about how they are on the bottom of meters instead of talking about actual problems with the class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    To maybe clarify a bit further.

    The problem is actually theorycrafters themselves. The problem is that most of hte playerbase cannot give contructive feedback to save their lives, instead parroting whatever problem that resonates the loudest, and class tuning is a really easy scapegoat, especially when theorycrafting is so readily available and minmaxing is expected in nearly all facets of gameplay due to the lack of meaningful choices.
    But those sorts of threads are not theorycrafting, they may be partially (mis)informed by such voices, but they are not. They are, however, the most crude form of feedback that exists in the absence of well formulated theorycrafting.

    Let's consider this: call these community voices Opinion Leaders. What would be the state of class design in their absence? Not only that, but what kind of behavioral changes would this allow for Blizzard?

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with the premise that a lot of players are just parroting these opinion leaders. I do it as well, but I at least go in and experience the class to see if I go through the problems being pointed out.

    So when Shaman community leaders are saying our survivability and self-healing is crap, that Wolves are in a shameful state in comparison to how they used to be in MoP or WoD, or that having Fire Nova as a talent in the same row as Hailstorm is useless especially when taking into account that Fire Nova is downright useless without a Flame shock spread mechanic... sure, writing posts on the official forums in such fashion might be non-constructive, but it's just a reflection of frustration because we've had these things in an acceptable state before, but now they've been re-added in a poor state that us - the masses - can't help but go "what the hell are you doing?" Nonetheless I agree and "parrot" such simple premises.

  2. #65342
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The idea is probably more that the theorycrafting often leads to the community parroting the same idea of a class being useless when that only applies to the draconian standards set by the world first community.
    Noone benefits from an endless stream of "my class sux, please fix". Especially not when the problem is just numerical. Theorycrafting detracts from the discussion on how the class plays, or what talents work as part of the class by taking up all the space in the public forum in a sense. The devs have repeatedly stated that when a large chunk of the feedback in non-constructive they simply need to tune it out, which leads to some salient parts being ignored in the confusion.

    Consider for a moment that you are a dev tasked with reading feedback on a class and 80% of the threads are titled something like "Warrior sucks balls", or "Hunter devs are incompetent". Would you want to read those? Or would you simply assume they are non-constructive and move on to something that seems like it has a point?
    It is likely that those first threads has SOME good feedback, but it likely isnt worth skimming through when most of the posts are talking about how they are on the bottom of meters instead of talking about actual problems with the class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    To maybe clarify a bit further.

    The problem is actually theorycrafters themselves. The problem is that most of hte playerbase cannot give contructive feedback to save their lives, instead parroting whatever problem that resonates the loudest, and class tuning is a really easy scapegoat, especially when theorycrafting is so readily available and minmaxing is expected in nearly all facets of gameplay due to the lack of meaningful choices.
    Its almost as if they are thousands of people with absolutely no experience or aptitude in feedback and beta testing.
    Having to sift through 99.9% garbage is what will always happen when you outsource testing to the public.

    Also I have seen of plenty of long, well thought out and articulated posts not talking about numbers and theorycraft but about playstyle and feel for a class being bad that have gone completely ignored with a spec feeling like complete garbage as a result.
    If people put their own free time and energy into providing feedback that gets ignored, they are going to get frustrated and stop giving feedback and all your left with it the yapping masses.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  3. #65343
    I think many people are just tired of constant drama. Just look (for example) at Preach channel and ask yourself: was there ever period in last 10 years where game was just, you know, fine?

    Because judging from these videos there is always huge problem that will murder game in few months if devs won't change (or rather revert back). There are videos from MoP era where Preach say that raiding scene is dying..

    Also, good changes get no appreciation. During Legion titanforging was 'world ending problem', I remember comments that Blizzard need just revert this change and WoW will be 'fixed'. They did. No one cares, people are busy whining about Covenants.

    It's just example, cause other creators are even bigger drama queens. And my point isn't that these critique is invalid, I just don't think they are big deals that will destroy whole game and don't deserve this constant 'world is ending' narrative.

  4. #65344
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    I think many people are just tired of constant drama. Just look (for example) at Preach channel and ask yourself: was there ever period in last 10 years where game was just, you know, fine?

    Because judging from these videos there is always huge problem that will murder game in few months if devs won't change (or rather revert back). There are videos from MoP era where Preach say that raiding scene is dying..

    Also, good changes get no appreciation. During Legion titanforging was 'world ending problem', I remember comments that Blizzard need just revert this change and WoW will be 'fixed'. They did. No one cares, people are busy whining about Covenants.

    It's just example, cause other creators are even bigger drama queens. And my point isn't that these critique is invalid, I just don't think they are big deals that will destroy whole game and don't deserve this constant 'world is ending' narrative.
    negative content spreads better then positive content, this is simply a fact. Same with youtube, the algorithm favours negative content.
    So the content creators get more exposure and make more money when they produce negative content.

    It doesn't matter if the game is fine or not, they will put out negative content regardless because $$.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  5. #65345
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Let's consider this: call these community voices Opinion Leaders. What would be the state of class design in their absence? Not only that, but what kind of behavioral changes would this allow for Blizzard?
    Probably some more relaxed communication guidelines, because making discussion harder is about all that kind of person does.

  6. #65346
    This thread here has some folks shilling pretty hard for Blizzard. I don't understand this, as there's enough proof from BfA and Shadowlands beta on how Blizzard blatantly ignores feedback or simply doesn't care about it.

    To give you a concrete example on this: Elemental Shaman talents - in the first row we have this useless skill called "Statis Discharge" that requires Lightning Shield to be active on you. In the third row we have Earth Shield. As a Shaman you can only have one elemental shield active on you, so you cannot have Lightning Shield and Earth Shield on you at the same time. What does this mean in the end? One talent is actively preventing you from using another talent. This has been pointed out for long enough now and guess what: this crap still made it to live in the pre patch.

    I'm not trying to defend theorycrafters here, I think dissecting every skill and talent and rotation for another 0.02% increase of DPS / healing is ridiculous and absurd, but the issue is not about those people. It's about Blizzard ignoring almost all feedback they get on class design. Class design in BfA has been sh*t. Class design in Shadowlands is barely better and besides Shadow Priest - a rework that undoubtly improved the spec and was well done - they haven't done anything meaningful to most classes and specs. Bad specs are still bad with bad talents and bad gameplay, several complaints from even Legion have still not been adressed (Holy Paladin mastery, Restoration Shaman having no ST cooldown for Mythic+, Survival being severely undertuned for two expansions now etc.).

    They're condescending attitude towards community feedback, even for the most elaborate and well-thought posts about class / spec design, is shameful, because they fail in this aspect since BfA beta, in some cases even before. There is no excuse for this and there's no argument to sugarcoat or vindicate Blizzard's poor work on classes for this upcoming expansion.
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  7. #65347
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    This thread here has some folks shilling pretty hard for Blizzard. I don't understand this, as there's enough proof from BfA and Shadowlands beta on how Blizzard blatantly ignores feedback or simply doesn't care about it.
    There has also been enough proof in SL beta that Blizz actually listens to feedback. But hey, it's not like it was presented here over and over again, but it all fell on deaf ears, because it's convenient to ignore it by notorious haters.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2020-10-18 at 11:02 AM.
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  8. #65348
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    There has also been enough proof in SL beta that Blizz actually listens to feedback. But hey, it's not like it was presented here over and over again, but it all fell on deaf ears, because it's convenient to ignore it.
    They listen to feedback when the outrage is big enough, e.g. with Covenant abilities only being usable in the Shadowlands etc.

    There are enough things that are fundamentally wrong or broken and Blizzard isn't even adressing them. They're doing a poor job, even if they eventually acknowledge some feedback.
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  9. #65349
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    They listen to feedback when the outrage is big enough, e.g. with Covenant abilities only being usable in the Shadowlands etc.

    There are enough things that are fundamentally wrong or broken and Blizzard isn't even adressing them. They're doing a poor job, even if they eventually acknowledge some feedback.
    There was no outrage that Feral CD was crap, that Subs Shadow Vault was problematic to use, that Enh Hailstorm play style was the only decent one, that Balance had no DoTs interaction. Feedback response between BfA and SL is night and day. But hey, if people want to ignore all of that, they will. You do you.
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  10. #65350
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    There was no outrage that Feral CD was crap, that Subs Shadow Vault was problematic to use, that Enh Hailstorm play style was the only decent one, that Balance had no DoTs interaction. Feedback response between BfA and SL is night and day. But hey, if people want to ignore all of that, they will. You do you.
    Going from super bad in BfA to bad in Shadowlands when it comes to reacting to feedback still leaves a bad taste on class design overall.

    But sure, go on, Blizzard's doing fine in that regard.
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  11. #65351
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Going from super bad in BfA to bad in Shadowlands when it comes to reacting to feedback still leaves a bad taste on class design.

    But sure, go on.
    Hey man, it's not me who made a name for himself with years of hating on the game and ignoring anything that doesn't fit his agenda.
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  12. #65352
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Hey man, it's not me who made a name for himself with years of hating on the game and ignoring anything that doesn't fit his agenda.
    Hating on BfA (and guess what, it turned out exactly as bad as I said it would be), not the game. I don't see how this has anything to do with the fact that Blizzard is ignoring player feedback on the most basic things, e.g. my Shaman example above.

    But go on and try to somehow validate your opinion by nitpicking about my opinions on the game (aka BfA).
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  13. #65353
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    This thread here has some folks shilling pretty hard for Blizzard. I don't understand this^
    Look in the mirror. You're doing the same except with reversed signs.

  14. #65354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Hating on BfA (and guess what, it turned out exactly as bad as I said it would be), not the game. I don't see how this has anything to do with the fact that Blizzard is ignoring player feedback on the most basic things, e.g. my Shaman example above.

    But go on and try to somehow validate your opinion by nitpicking about my opinions on the game (aka BfA).
    What's the point. You will just ignore and diminish every example of changes due to feedback.

    One of the highlights was you trying to prove that people were not interested in SL, and Classic BC Google search was more popular, but your own linked source proved you wrong. You are trying so hard to ruin SL (and WoW) for others.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2020-10-18 at 11:32 AM.
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  15. #65355
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    This thread here has some folks shilling pretty hard for Blizzard. I don't understand this, as there's enough proof from BfA and Shadowlands beta on how Blizzard blatantly ignores feedback or simply doesn't care about it.

    To give you a concrete example on this: Elemental Shaman talents - in the first row we have this useless skill called "Statis Discharge" that requires Lightning Shield to be active on you. In the third row we have Earth Shield. As a Shaman you can only have one elemental shield active on you, so you cannot have Lightning Shield and Earth Shield on you at the same time. What does this mean in the end? One talent is actively preventing you from using another talent. This has been pointed out for long enough now and guess what: this crap still made it to live in the pre patch.
    But Earth Shield can be cast on other targets, right? So you can cast it on f.e. the tank to lend some basically passive healing.

  16. #65356
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    But Earth Shield can be cast on other targets, right? So you can cast it on f.e. the tank to lend some basically passive healing.
    In a row that's about self defense / self utility? Yeah, that makes so much sense.

    But yes, you can cast it on another target, but why would I ever do this as Elemental Shaman?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Look in the mirror. You're doing the same except with reversed signs.
    I give Blizzard credit where credit's due, e.g. visuals, art design for Shadowlands, delay of the expansion etc. But their class design and overall reaction to class / spec feedback is really bad and even the blindest person can see this. If that person wants to acknowledge it is another story though.
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  17. #65357
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I give Blizzard credit where credit's due, e.g. visuals, art design for Shadowlands, delay of the expansion etc. But their class design and overall reaction to class / spec feedback is really bad and even the blindest person can see this. If that person wants to acknowledge it is another story though.
    And yet you dismiss out of hand any evidence that your claims are incorrect.

  18. #65358
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    In a row that's about self defense / self utility? Yeah, that makes so much sense.

    But yes, you can cast it on another target, but why would I ever do this as Elemental Shaman?
    Capacitor Charge is also group utility.

    If you swap static charge with nature's guardian, then yes, you would have a case but as the talent row is as of now, you have one purely self-utility talent and 2 talents that can help a group. If anything, I'd say Spirit Wolf is the odd one out in that row with it being purely "egoistical".
    Last edited by Jaggler; 2020-10-18 at 11:51 AM.

  19. #65359
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And yet you dismiss out of hand any evidence that your claims are incorrect.
    I dismiss nothing. I just say it doesn't matter in the big picture = class design, because there are still so many obvious and blatant issues that they willingly ignore. Just because they listen to 10% of feedback I don't have to give them credit for that when 90% stay untouched or ignored.

    Yes, they improved from BfA beta to Shadowlands beta. But there's so much room left for more than just that. If there wouldn't be tons of good feedback, but there is. Beta forum has those specific class threads that are full of good and thorough feedback. Yet most of it seems to not matter at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Capacitor Charge is also group utility.

    If you swap static charge with nature's guardian, then yes, you would have a case but as the talent row is as of now, you have one purely self-utility talent and 2 talents that can help a group. If anything, I'd say Spirit Wolf is the odd one out in that row with it being purely "egoistical".
    Capacitator Totem isn't necessarly group utility. You're right with swapping Nature's Guardian for that though, but it doesn't change the inherent problem that I as Elemental Shaman cannot use two talents at the same time although I am able to take them both.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2020-10-18 at 12:11 PM.
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  20. #65360
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I dismiss nothing. I just say it doesn't matter in the big picture = class design, because there are still so many obvious and blatant issues that they willingly ignore.
    In other words, you're dismissing it.

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