1. #65541
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Just 4 weeks of 9.1 / raid testing for a 8-10 boss raid (I just assume this amount of bosses, BoD had 9, NH 10 and BRF 10)? I'd say mid/end of April sounds like a safe bet if 9.1 goes to the PTR directly after Blizzcon.

    (I think we both agree that 9.1 won't introduce a new zone and most likely just improve the Maw and maybe Torghast with more stuff to do, don't we?)
    The raid doesnt have to come out immediately either. THe important part is whether the patch ittself comes out earlier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    9.1 announcement with PTR coming mid-february, 9.1 release 6 weeks after with raid opening another 3-5 weeks after that. Seems like a reasonable timeframe to me.
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  2. #65542
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The raid doesnt have to come out immediately either. THe important part is whether the patch ittself comes out earlier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    9.1 announcement with PTR coming mid-february, 9.1 release 6 weeks after with raid opening another 3-5 weeks after that. Seems like a reasonable timeframe to me.
    Ah, I thought you we're planning the 9.1 announcement / PTR for / after Blizzcon.
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  3. #65543
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    No, there are no other places you can do that.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Either they shorten the duration of tiers, cut one tier or we're looking for the longest expansion ever if this would be the case.

    The first patch of an expansion usually comes quite fast after launch, 7.1 came 2 months after Legion's launch and 8.1 came 3 months after BfA's launch. I'd say 9.1 is more likely to be here around May (that'd still be 5-6 months after SL' launch) because an announcement in February during Blizzcon seems reasonable. If we go by the usual duration of ~ 6 months per mid tier, we're looking at something like:

    9.1 May '21
    9.2 November/December '21
    9.3 May/June '22
    10.0 February/March '23 (the earliest)
    well we could use the soulbinds as a tracker

    doubtful that you will be able to hit max renown and there be no new content
    so yeah 4 months after launch but the second raid hitting 6 months after launch
    with all of the shadowlands stuff its definitely a possibility that they arent rushed to release raids

  4. #65544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    And then they brought it back because they couldn't make Fulmination (the WoD mechanic) work with AoE / Earthquake. It isn't too bad, but Elemental Shaman has the same problem as many other specs, a) lackluster Covenant abilities, b) bad talents, c) some skills that scale really badly (Earth Shock should be the finisher but hits like a wet noodle) and d) horrible Potency Conduits (for Elemental pretty much all of them suck).

    The bigger problem is though, as we progress towards 60, we all get weaker. This was a huge problem of BfA and it will be a huge problem in Shadowlands, were you'll be the weakest at max level because bad (leveling) gear, no Azerite traits / Essence anymore and lack of Legendaries / stats.
    goddammit, it will be bfa all over again it seems, at least im not touching elemental until they remove that crap, i hate it

  5. #65545
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Ah, I thought you we're planning the 9.1 announcement / PTR for / after Blizzcon.
    Do oyu mean the livestrewamed event in February? I just assume that is where 9.1 will be announced.

    Even in February, PTR right after, 6 week PTR followed by 3-5 weeks of non-raid 9.1 before raid opens.
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  6. #65546
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Do oyu mean the livestrewamed event in February? I just assume that is where 9.1 will be announced.

    Even in February, PTR right after, 6 week PTR followed by 3-5 weeks of non-raid 9.1 before raid opens.
    I'm talking about the virtual Blizzcon ("BlizzConline") which takes place from 19-20 February 2021. I thought that might be the best place to announce 9.1 and maybe hint at 9.2 as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    goddammit, it will be bfa all over again it seems, at least im not touching elemental until they remove that crap, i hate it
    Right now Elemental isn't too bad, but we're overpowered at the moment due to abundance of stats etc. Elemental hasn't really changed since Legion, it's still the same spec with the same strenghts and weaknesses (and a ton of useless talents and Covenant abilities).
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  7. #65547
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Dark Souls when it comes to story is basically make it super vague as fuck, Warcraft is anything but that.
    I would say that the biggest way Dark Souls tells it's story is through the design of the world, how enemies look and where they are. Complimented by their item descriptions. It's deeply rooted in world building. Any game, even warcraft should learn from that. It doesn't have to be vague since you can compliment it with clear cut story snippets and characters telling how it is instead of speaking in riddles.

  8. #65548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I would say that the biggest way Dark Souls tells it's story is through the design of the world, how enemies look and where they are. Complimented by their item descriptions. It's deeply rooted in world building. Any game, even warcraft should learn from that. It doesn't have to be vague since you can compliment it with clear cut story snippets and characters telling how it is instead of speaking in riddles.
    WoW already does this.

    Telling the story through the design of the world, how the enemies look, where they are, and so on is a huge part of the design of WoW since Vanilla. It's undeniable and it's massive. Some parts of some expansions are better at it than other ones, but even BfA is extremely good at it. In a lot of cases, even without the quest text or anything, you can work out what's going on just from what you're fighting, where, and what's happened to the environment. It's weird to even suggest otherwise, given anyone who has played through an unfamiliar area without actually reading the quests (which I'm guessing is virtually everyone sooner or later) has probably understood what, basically, is going on (in the same way you do in DS).

    So I'm not convinced Dark Souls does have anything to actually teach WoW here. DS is a wonderful series, but it has plenty of areas where it's actually less clear than WoW from the "who and where" of things what's actually going on (especially in DS2, imho).

    The only thing DS does really heavily that WoW does only lightly is tell the story through the items. And I'm not sure that's something that would be viable with WoW's loot setup.

    (As an aside, most MMORPGs to some extent tell stories by positioning mobs, showing the environment and so on. Indeed, back in the days of EverQuest and Dark Age of Camelot, where quests were rare, often the only way you knew the story of some area was what you inferred from the positioning of the mobs, the environment and so on. WoW derived very directly from them, and continued this, but added loads more quests which put a lot more direct or indirect explanation on top of that, but the environmental and mob storytelling continues to this day. Some MMOs do it less, or in ways that make less sense. FFXIV has some mob positioning that makes no intuitive sense and is forced to explain it, and often doesn't have the environment explain much, so it's clearly not doing this as aggressively as WoW. City of Heroes was a mixed bag on this, sometimes doing it very well, sometimes making you wonder "Why am I here, beating up random street thugs, in the middle of a very high-tech laboratory?". Warhammer Age of Reckoning was pretty good at it - verging on the great in places, with loads of obscure stories told mostly through mobs/areas hidden away. I could go on.)
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-10-22 at 12:27 PM.
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  9. #65549
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    WoW already does this.

    Telling the story through the design of the world, how the enemies look, where they are, and so on is a huge part of the design of WoW since Vanilla. It's undeniable and it's massive. Some parts of some expansions are better at it than other ones, but even BfA is extremely good at it. In a lot of cases, even without the quest text or anything, you can work out what's going on just from what you're fighting, where, and what's happened to the environment. It's weird to even suggest otherwise, given anyone who has played through an unfamiliar area without actually reading the quests (which I'm guessing is virtually everyone sooner or later) has probably understood what, basically, is going on (in the same way you do in DS).

    So I'm not convinced Dark Souls does have anything to actually teach WoW here. DS is a wonderful series, but it has plenty of areas where it's actually less clear than WoW from the "who and where" of things what's actually going on (especially in DS2, imho).

    The only thing DS does really heavily that WoW does only lightly is tell the story through the items. And I'm not sure that's something that would be viable with WoW's loot setup.

    (As an aside, most MMORPGs to some extent tell stories by positioning mobs, showing the environment and so on. Indeed, back in the days of EverQuest and Dark Age of Camelot, where quests were rare, often the only way you knew the story of some area was what you inferred from the positioning of the mobs, the environment and so on. WoW derived very directly from them, and continued this, but added loads more quests which put a lot more direct or indirect explanation on top of that, but the environmental and mob storytelling continues to this day. Some MMOs do it less, or in ways that make less sense. FFXIV has some mob positioning that makes no intuitive sense and is forced to explain it, and often doesn't have the environment explain much, so it's clearly not doing this as aggressively as WoW. City of Heroes was a mixed bag on this, sometimes doing it very well, sometimes making you wonder "Why am I here, beating up random street thugs, in the middle of a very high-tech laboratory?". Warhammer Age of Reckoning was pretty good at it - verging on the great in places, with loads of obscure stories told mostly through mobs/areas hidden away. I could go on.)
    The reason why I said "even wow" is because Dark souls, or rather, Hidetaka Miyazakis direction when it comes to details is nr 1 in that regard. To me, his games are the best at telling stories while actually saying very little. Dark Souls is less clear, which is why I said they are speaking in riddles, which wow doesn't have to do. I mean in some sense ALL games are telling stories and do worldbuilding based on design of the areas and enemies. I didn't try an insinuate that WoW DOESN'T do this at all, just that they can learn more from souls series. Hollow Knight is another great example of it that does it extremely well which they most likely got inspiration from Souls series considering how conversations in that game are handled.

    Then if you disagree or not is another matter, just wanted to clarify some interpretations you made.

  10. #65550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    The reason why I said "even wow" is because Dark souls, or rather, Hidetaka Miyazakis direction when it comes to details is nr 1 in that regard. To me, his games are the best at telling stories while actually saying very little. Dark Souls is less clear, which is why I said they are speaking in riddles, which wow doesn't have to do. I mean in some sense ALL games are telling stories and do worldbuilding based on design of the areas and enemies. I didn't try an insinuate that WoW DOESN'T do this at all, just that they can learn more from souls series. Hollow Knight is another great example of it that does it extremely well which they most likely got inspiration from Souls series considering how conversations in that game are handled.

    Then if you disagree or not is another matter, just wanted to clarify some interpretations you made.
    Fair enough, I just think that, of all the games out there, WoW is one of the ones which does a better job on environmental storytelling and so on. WoW is particularly disinclined towards the generic. Zones and dungeons which in other MMOs would probably be simple re-used stuff with few decorations and where it's easy to mix up one with another, in WoW tend to have memorable touches and often stuff that's unique to them. It's hard to think of any two WoW dungeons you could mistake for each other - outside of the intentionally-related Blackrock ones - and even those, you'd quickly see the differences, and they actually have superb environment/mob storytelling. Indeed I'd say some parts of WoW are better at this than some parts of the DS series, but it's an unfair comparison, so it doesn't mean much. Even the little cave systems and stuff that have copy & pasted maps tend to be lit drastically differently, have very different props and inhabitants and to successfully obscure that they're the same map for a lot of people, and manage to tell some kind of story about what's going on there.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-10-22 at 01:17 PM.
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  11. #65551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Right now Elemental isn't too bad, but we're overpowered at the moment due to abundance of stats etc. Elemental hasn't really changed since Legion, it's still the same spec with the same strenghts and weaknesses (and a ton of useless talents and Covenant abilities).
    the problem is that i hate maelstrom, with all my guts

  12. #65552
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the problem is that i hate maelstrom, with all my guts
    Well, the given reason for why they went back is that the design essentially ended up being Maelstrom with a crappier UI anyway, so they might as well use the one that's already properly implemented and tested.

    So you'd have ended up with the same gameplay anyway.

  13. #65553
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    The reason why I said "even wow" is because Dark souls, or rather, Hidetaka Miyazakis direction when it comes to details is nr 1 in that regard. To me, his games are the best at telling stories while actually saying very little. Dark Souls is less clear, which is why I said they are speaking in riddles, which wow doesn't have to do. I mean in some sense ALL games are telling stories and do worldbuilding based on design of the areas and enemies. I didn't try an insinuate that WoW DOESN'T do this at all, just that they can learn more from souls series. Hollow Knight is another great example of it that does it extremely well which they most likely got inspiration from Souls series considering how conversations in that game are handled.

    Then if you disagree or not is another matter, just wanted to clarify some interpretations you made.
    The closest thing to Dark Souls from a lore standpoint are the Secrets, aka what the Secret Finder Community uncovers. But those are contrived, designed as extraneous easter eggs, as opposed to the integrated lore of Dark Souls.

    With respect to discovery, WoW is hampered by its playerbase communicating with each other as a natural part of the game. So while Dark Souls can be a single-player experience where the individual player has the ability to only discover the lore that he himself finds, a WoW player can easily be spoiled through Says and Yells, even if he otherwise is trying to make it a single-player experience.

    World of Warcraft originally was inspired mostly by Warhammer and Disney, aesthetically (Everquest and MUDs in systems designs). But with the tremendous artistic success of Dark Souls, WoW has gravitated in that direction, from the Hollowed-inspired Suramar to the more prominent Old Gods theming.

    There's a culture-clash here - Warhammer is cheesy Metal and Disney is over-saturated fairy tales, neither well-suited to gothic and cosmic horror. WoW is an artistic abomination, a "Patchwerk", of pop-culture references and clashing artistic visions. It's an International all-you-can-eat buffet, intended to have something for everyone, watered down mixed-up versions of the originals.

  14. #65554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yunzi View Post
    The closest thing to Dark Souls from a lore standpoint are the Secrets, aka what the Secret Finder Community uncovers. But those are contrived, designed as extraneous easter eggs, as opposed to the integrated lore of Dark Souls.

    With respect to discovery, WoW is hampered by its playerbase communicating with each other as a natural part of the game. So while Dark Souls can be a single-player experience where the individual player has the ability to only discover the lore that he himself finds, a WoW player can easily be spoiled through Says and Yells, even if he otherwise is trying to make it a single-player experience.

    World of Warcraft originally was inspired mostly by Warhammer and Disney, aesthetically (Everquest and MUDs in systems designs). But with the tremendous artistic success of Dark Souls, WoW has gravitated in that direction, from the Hollowed-inspired Suramar to the more prominent Old Gods theming.

    There's a culture-clash here - Warhammer is cheesy Metal and Disney is over-saturated fairy tales, neither well-suited to gothic and cosmic horror. WoW is an artistic abomination, a "Patchwerk", of pop-culture references and clashing artistic visions. It's an International all-you-can-eat buffet, intended to have something for everyone, watered down mixed-up versions of the originals.
    I agree with pretty much all of this except then you go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far at the end. Suramar isn't particularly "Hollowed-inspired". The "mana-eating" thing is not an uncommon fantasy trope at all, and looooooong pre-dates the Hollowed, and everything else about the Nightborne screams "DISNEY!!!" not Dark Souls. The whole notion of needing magic/energy to feed a bunch of magic people (or dragons or w/e) is a pretty standard fantasy trope too. As is stuff recovering from a bestial state when fed some magical thing.

    Further, you dismiss Warhammer as "cheesy metal", which is incredibly ignorant, because Warhammer has had heavy Lovecraftian elements from the get go - far heavier ones, I'd suggest, than are present in Dark Souls (I, II or III). Warhammer Fantasy has a lot going on, but really, "metal" is a pretty small part of it - strictly limited to Chaos, really. It has some pretty serious gothic horror and stuff going on too. Perhaps you're confusing Warhammer Fantasy with Warhammer 40K and/or Age of Sigmar though. But Warhammer Fantasy was the main artistic influence for all of Warcraft (all three games and WoW, closely followed by Disney I agree, and with '90s "edgy" superhero comics like Spawn in the mix too).

    I don't see any evidence Warcraft has gravitated particularly towards any kind of Dark Souls aesthetic. I'd love it if it did. But gothic horror (as in Hammer Horror and so on, D&D's Ravenloft, etc.) has always been a part of WoW, and is largely unchanged from Vanilla's Duskwood and Silverpine to SL's Nathria. It's possibly the Maw and Torghast will have more of a DS vibe of course - Torghast seems particularly likely to.

    I do agree with the last line though - the end result is watered-down, mixed up versions, though, somehow, Blizzard generally make it all work pretty well. It's like one of those restaurants you go into, and you're scared because the menu is waaaaaay too big (in terms of different things you can order) and has pictures on it, neither of which is a great sign, normally, yet somehow, actually, the food there is pretty good - maybe not top tier on any individual dish, but good and you'd come back.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-10-22 at 05:20 PM.
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  15. #65555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the problem is that i hate maelstrom, with all my guts
    Maelstrom is emblematic of WoW's real prblem.

    The class mechanics need to be fully rebuilt, they're that broken. It's why a good chunk of unpruning got removed, too. You can't just shove beans in a broken clock and expect it to work, you have to fix the clock.
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  16. #65556
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Maelstrom is emblematic of WoW's real prblem.

    The class mechanics need to be fully rebuilt, they're that broken. It's why a good chunk of unpruning got removed, too. You can't just shove beans in a broken clock and expect it to work, you have to fix the clock.
    You might be on to something here actually. Some classes work just fine like BM and Fury, but I do agree that the way classes are built could do with a rework, even the examples of good specs I gave seem like they might be jerry built on top of something not so great.
    Might also be necessary considering how classes being homogenized should also get a fix with a rework. Not the utility, bur rather the way each spec is built with the assumption that you can swap talents at all times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    You might be on to something here actually. Some classes work just fine like BM and Fury, but I do agree that the way classes are built could do with a rework, even the examples of good specs I gave seem like they might be jerry built on top of something not so great.
    Might also be necessary considering how classes being homogenized should also get a fix with a rework. Not the utility, bur rather the way each spec is built with the assumption that you can swap talents at all times.

    I just don't buy that all classes are broken, that is just absurd and I never get examples either. Mine is fine but I think it already is due for a change(Same with the talent system)
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  18. #65558
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I just don't buy that all classes are broken, that is just absurd and I never get examples either. Mine is fine but I think it already is due for a change(Same with the talent system)
    Not that all classes are "broken" in the conventional sense, many of them work just fine. The question is whether the way classes are designed is problematic and could do with a fundamental rework.
    So not on the level of rotations and what have you, bur rather things like how the talent tree works, and how specs are differentiated from classes and eachother.
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  19. #65559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    You might be on to something here actually. Some classes work just fine like BM and Fury, but I do agree that the way classes are built could do with a rework, even the examples of good specs I gave seem like they might be jerry built on top of something not so great.
    Might also be necessary considering how classes being homogenized should also get a fix with a rework. Not the utility, bur rather the way each spec is built with the assumption that you can swap talents at all times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I just don't buy that all classes are broken, that is just absurd and I never get examples either. Mine is fine but I think it already is due for a change(Same with the talent system)
    It's definitely not all of them but there's a good number where the base concept is just broken and the only fix is to tear it down and redo it. Shaman is the biggest offender that I think most players will agree has been due for a total redesign for actual years now. The moment Blizzard decided Totems were out the class was broken because they didn't do a proper redesign, they just sliced off Totems and called it an expansion.

    Hunter's the other one that people are pretty generally starting to come around on needing a redo. Between the issues with Pets to the lack of identity in Marksman and just general blandness of Survival.

    And I will argue until the servers close Paladin is another one that is in desperate need of a full rework. Just to make them less dependant on Holy Power for every spec.
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  20. #65560
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    It's definitely not all of them but there's a good number where the base concept is just broken and the only fix is to tear it down and redo it. Shaman is the biggest offender that I think most players will agree has been due for a total redesign for actual years now. The moment Blizzard decided Totems were out the class was broken because they didn't do a proper redesign, they just sliced off Totems and called it an expansion.

    Hunter's the other one that people are pretty generally starting to come around on needing a redo. Between the issues with Pets to the lack of identity in Marksman and just general blandness of Survival.

    And I will argue until the servers close Paladin is another one that is in desperate need of a full rework. Just to make them less dependant on Holy Power for every spec.
    I've played A little bit of Marksmen and I don't really have issue with what it is. Its basically your ranger/archer/rifieman archetype. Its not hard to grasp on that. Some of the mechanics to it might not work well(Doubtful) but I get it more then Survival(They should just turn it all melee go all out on melee attacks themed with animals). As I said above I do think the talent system is looked at...again and well I don't mean adding new abilities each expansion..we know where that got us.


    And before someone asks "Arms works or rather warriors I think are "fine" as in they work they function there's nothing terrible but I don't mind a remake.
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