9.0 General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

BfA objectively had the pre-patch with the most content. A massive questline spanning two entire weeks which was FULL of plot development (this new questline about the Scourge doesn't compare lol), the revamp of Darkshore (which lasted until 8.1), the Battle of Lordaeron story scenario and subsequent revamp of Tirisfal Glades, TWO NEW MOUNTS that every player got (hippogryph for the Alliance, gargoyle for the Horde), many story-intense cutscenes and even CGI cinematics varying between Alliance and Horde... there is no comparison.

And yet, all I heard when it was live was how there was nothing to actually do. THe quests were nice and well-made, but that didnt really matter when you logged on for 1 hour the first week, and then just sat around waiting for the next batch of quests.
The mount is clearly a better reward than whatever we get from the current pre-patch, but at least there is a reason to log on for longer and engage with the content. Doesnt matter if Bronjahm is the only rare worth killing, but that is still a consistent reason to log on for other reasons than just seeing the questline.

I suppose it depends on whether you appreciate a great quest with a great reward and almost nothing else, or an okay quest, okay rewards and a whole bunch of okay reasons to log on.
Personally I prefer this one, the BfA pre-patch didnt give me a reason to want to go to Darkshore and do the world quests unless I wanted to wintrade in Warmode, at least this one gives me a reason to log on for more than one day a week, and also a reason to play the pre-pathc on more than one alt.

[Varodoc]

And yet, all I heard when it was live was how there was nothing to actually do. THe quests were nice and well-made, but that didnt really matter when you logged on for 1 hour the first week, and then just sat around waiting for the next batch of quests.
The mount is clearly a better reward than whatever we get from the current pre-patch, but at least there is a reason to log on for longer and engage with the content. Doesnt matter if Bronjahm is the only rare worth killing, but that is still a consistent reason to log on for other reasons than just seeing the questline.

I suppose it depends on whether you appreciate a great quest with a great reward and almost nothing else, or an okay quest, okay rewards and a whole bunch of okay reasons to log on.
Personally I prefer this one, the BfA pre-patch didnt give me a reason to want to go to Darkshore and do the world quests unless I wanted to wintrade in Warmode, at least this one gives me a reason to log on for more than one day a week, and also a reason to play the pre-pathc on more than one alt.

As someone who mostly plays the game to follow the plotline, the War of Thorns questline and subsequent Battle of Lordaeron scenario were way more engaging than the questline of this pre-patch.

What do you even do in this questline? You talk to a bunch of people in low-level zones, you kill 12 zombies, then you go to Icecrown and kill 10 zombies to secure a foothold, and that's the first week... I don't see any relevant plot or character development. There are no major characters in this questline, only random Argent Crusade fodder. Meanwhile in the War of Thorns you had Sylvanas, Malfurion, and Saurfang in the first week. The level squish is appreciated, but I'm focusing on the story aspect, which is the spotlight of every new content update.

As for the forums, as I spend my time on the story forum, there was a LOT to talk about back then. I still remember the endless Night elf QQ threads cursing Anduin and the Horde.

[Sondrelk]

How about having an ACTUAL Scourge invasion, no? Floating necropoli attacking zones? Zombies rampaging in major cities? It was done 12 years ago. Do they no longer have the technical capabilities to do what they did more than a decade ago? Just reskin the Legion events and replace the baddies with the Scourge.

This "invasion" does not feel like an invasion at all.

I can only assume they were afraid it would be seen as too similar to the Legion invasions.

I feel it was a mistake by Blizzard to have the event mostly set in Icecrown, the questline before you go there honestly seems more interesting. Even simply placing the rares around SW/Org would be an improvement I think. Sure, it would split the playerbase between Alliance and Horde, but I still think it would be worth it.

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As someone who mostly plays the game to follow the plotline, the War of Thorns questline and subsequent Battle of Lordaeron scenario were way more engaging than the questline of this pre-patch.

What do you even do in this questline? You talk to a bunch of people in low-level zones, you kill 12 zombies, then you go to Icecrown and kill 10 zombies to secure a foothold, and that's the first week... I don't see any relevant plot or character development. There are no major characters in this questline. Meanwhile in the War of Thorns you had Sylvanas, Malfurion, and Saurfang in the first week.

As for the forums, as I spend my time on the story forum, there was a LOT to talk about back then. I still remember the endless Night elf QQ threads cursing Anduin and the Horde.

Discussion was far more interesting back then, and the questlines were definitely better. The questline where you are set to save too many Night Elves stand out as possibly the best quest Blizzard has done, but that doesnt really excuse that it was still just 2 questlines spaced over 4 weeks, whereas this one has lesser quests, but more reason to log on.

Personally I always find that what a pre-patch should manage is making players excited to log on and wait for the launch. Legion was the best at this, even with a shitty questline, and BfA really didnt even with a great questline.

If you just want to compare the questlines and forum engagement then BfA wins, but I find the engagement in-game to be more important.

[Xilurm]

If you kill a ghoul in Stormwind you get a small quest that you take to the Argent Commander in the trade district. Dunno if there's a followup to that.

[Sondrelk]

To compare more easily. In the BfA pre-patch the only thing I remember seeing in the general chat was people wondering if there was anything to do, or rewards to gain after completing the questline, and loads of people who declared they would just take a break until the next batch of quests.
In this pre-patch there are in comparision people having some semblance of fun in Icecrown. They are not doing anything exciting, but there is activity that isnt just people wondering if there is anything to do, or any rewards to gain.

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If you kill a ghoul in Stormwind you get a small quest that you take to the Argent Commander in the trade district. Dunno if there's a followup to that.

Sounds like it might be some buildup to the zombie invasions next week.

[Eurhetemec]

I feel like a pre-patch should do two things, myself:

1) Get people to log on before the expansion, preferably across a number of alts, which means they do the usually expansion housekeeping before the expansion launches. This might seem irrelevant to steady players but for people who come back with the expansion, having all that stuff out of the way is really helpful because it means you get any "Ugh I forget this guy's bags were 100% full..." stuff out of the way, or "Ugh this guy's weakauras are fucked..." or whatever.

2) Be memorable and exciting.

This pre-patch is succeeding fairly strongly at the first goal, but so far, unless some crazy shit happens in week two (which I don't think it will, based on the PTR), it is not succeeding particularly on the second. It's moderately memorable at most. I still remember the Legion pre-patch vividly, because I leveled a bunch of classes and characters I never had before, and it was hugely exciting. Even the BfA one was a lot more memorable than this so far, though finally getting to kill Nathanos was nice (couldn't you kill him in Vanilla also or something or am I misremembering? But still...).

I suspect that they main reason it's not like the previous Scourge invasions is that Blizzard don't want a bunch of returning and/or new players to be swamped with griefing ghouls and so on, and get put off by that. Maybe week two and the zombies will be as "extreme" as it was in the past but I suspect the vastly different structure of the game and progression and so on will mean otherwise.

[Lahis]

, though finally getting to kill Nathanos was nice (couldn't you kill him in Vanilla also or something or am I misremembering? But still...).

He was Horde questgiver and target of Alliance raid quest in Vanilla.

In Cataclysm he got better from being killed and became Hunter Trainer in Undercity and in Legion he was promoted into self-insert and Sylvanas' BoyToy.

[Eurhetemec]

He was Horde questgiver and target of Alliance raid quest in Vanilla.

In Cataclysm he got better from being killed and became Hunter Trainer in Undercity and in Legion he was promoted into self-insert and Sylvanas' BoyToy.

Ahhh yup that sounds right.

I don't buy all this jive-talk about him being a "self-insert" because he's routinely portrayed negatively. Anyone who can't see that doesn't understand even the basics of storytelling. Nathanos, for at least the last two expansions, has been a solidly negative character, with no redeeming or endearing or even "cool" traits. He's written how you write a sort of slightly second-rate modern comic-book villain.

This is true right up to an including the current stuff with him. His whole self-pitying, arrogant speech he gives when confronted, and his rather pathetic/sad attempt to say "I win anyway", is classic villain trope stuff. He's like a wrestling heel or comic-book villain. And then he embarrassingly gets cut off mid-rant by Tyrande, which just makes him look like a chump.

And you think this is a self-insert how? He may have started that way, but for two expansions he's been a clear heel/villain and almost always portrayed negatively. Yeah he gets away and taunts the heroes (us and others), but that's what a decent heel/villain does! It doesn't make them a "self-insert". By your logic here, half the Batman villains are "self-inserts". Shit most bigger comic-book villains are by that logic. Or the villain of Dirty Harry, even - Nathanos is actually particularly similar to that kind of character.

I feel like a lot of WoW players are like the sort of WWE fans who don't understand Kayfabe. I think the other issue is maybe that a lot of people who play who grew up liking incredibly shitty wanker "anti-heroes", and so are confused by Nathanos' portrayal, because sarcasm and arrogance is the mark of the "heroes" they like. I blame God of War (not the good recent one, the eye-roll-inducing older ones) and people who think Rorschach in Watchmen was a "good guy" (never has a character been better named lol!).

Sorry if this seems like a long response to your offhand comment about "self-insert", I've just read it a few times recently and it's the most goddamn nonsensical thing. There may have been a time when that was plausible, but if Tyrande "cutting him off" didn't seal that he isn't for you, then the writing of WoW isn't the problem. Nathanos is a surly punk who got punked. Yeah he'll be back, but what do you "self-insert" people think is going to happen lol? Sylvanas is going to declare her undying love for him? Fat chance lol. She'll either manipulate him into sacrificing himself to slow people down, or just not give him the time of day.

God I'm still on this rant - but for fuck's sake people, do you not watch movies? Do you read not read comic-books? Did you not watch wrestling when you were younger?

THIS IS BASIC STUFF. There is nothing about Nathanos that isn't basic-bitch villainy. He could be the villain or any number of 1980s and 1990s movies, if you just de-supernaturalized him. He's the dude who sets back the hero a bunch of times, then whilst gloating about having won, gets what's coming to him. So by all means zing Blizzard for "lazy" or "trope-y" or "predictable" or "old-fashioned" writing, but spare us this nonesense about "self-inserts". Next up, Hans Gruber was a self-insert. Or maybe Thulsa Doom or Ivan Drago. Jesus.

(You want an ACTUAL self-insert? His name is Thrall. He's Metzen's actual self-insert, and he basically can do no wrong - or couldn't whilst Metzen was there. He's not actually that annoying of a character because despite the Green Jesus stuff, Metzen managed to avoid power-tripping via Thrall too much. If Nathanos was a self-insert, he'd be in charge of the Horde by now, not getting cut off mid-rant on his knees.)

[plz delete account]

Was it really?
In the BfA pre-patch we had the questline with the guaranteed mount, the Lordaeron siege being available early, and a whole bunch of world quests in Darkshore that only worked to gear alts and didn't give anything worth getting otherwise.

This pre-patch meanwhile gives a questline, a battle pet, (somewhat) unique transmog, the bag, and of course the dailies and rares this week and the zombie invasion next week.

I would personally say this one beats out the BfA one by quite a bit, mostly because at least it incentivizes you to log on for more than just when new quests were added, and more importantly with next week has an actual potentially fun event with the Zombie invasions taking place in the capital cities.

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The transmog set is technically unique. It shares quite a few pieces with the season 1 gladiator set you can buy, but some of the pieces are exclusive.

That being said I do feel they should have at least used the unused HC warfront set tint from Stromgarde though, would have felt that tiny bit better to actually farm.

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Also, page 3333, who would have thought we would get here before the actual launch.

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War of Thorns was 2 sets of questlines with the Lordaeron scenario at the end. It did not give a mount.
From what I remember of it there was a general consensus that there was nothing to do except wait for the next set of quests/launch, as opposed to now where at least there is nothing to do except wait for Bronjahm to spawn again.

Having the Haunted Memento callback to farm is a nice bonus to at least incentivize going out and doing the actual pre-pathc content as well, something the BfA pre-patch didnt have unless you counted wintrading in Warmode Darkshore for the 500 honor level mount.

It DiD nOt GiVe A mOuNt
Why don't you actually play the prepatch before saying whether or not it gives a mount, because according to Wowhead, it gave TWO mounts.

[Vakir]

I don't buy all this jive-talk about him being a "self-insert" because he's routinely portrayed negatively. Anyone who can't see that doesn't understand even the basics of storytelling. Nathanos, for at least the last two expansions, has been a solidly negaive character, with no redeeming or endearing or even "cool" traits. He's written how you write a sort of slightly second-rate modern comic-book villain.

I agree on some level, but he definitely does get a lot of logic-warping overexposure (somehow a core part of The Battle for Dazar'alor and Battle for Darkshore, despite it being a plot point that both could not be addressed at the same time), and his "cool" traits are present in the sense that he still always has a snide remark that never gets put back on him.

He never seems to lose his overall center. His second fight against Tyrande was kind of one note. It was a perfect opportunity for the bluster to break apart and for him to shit himself and be reduced to a blubbering mess that got obliterated by a blind Moonfire but instead he kind of just gloated and indirectly got what he wanted.

Hell, the quest giver for killing him treats him like some kind of S-tier villain levels of horror, like they just saw Deathwing or something. That just shouldn't be. He's just a talented Dark Ranger. He shouldn't have survived the first encounter with the two Val'kyr to begin with, but to have him be faced down with a fuckton of Argent Crusaders AND a large raid party of demigod level players and still get a chance to survive and look arrogant and collected before Tyrande arrives is just...what.

While I wouldn't necessarily call him one, Villain Sues/Anti-Sues can exist. "Positive" qualities are relative and a character can still overtake their welcome and have overexposure to the story while having negative ones.

[Sondrelk]

It DiD nOt GiVe A mOuNt
Why don't you actually play the prepatch before saying whether or not it gives a mount, because according to Wowhead, it gave TWO mounts.
[IMG]

Where did I say it did not give a mount?
Actually I might have, I am not on my proper computer, and autocorrect can be a bitch sometimes.


Regardless the point is that BfA had a great mount and a great questline, but it did not have much staying power to actually make players want to log on each day to see the fun stuff, siply because outside the two batches of quests, there was nothing worthwhile grinding.
The SL pre-patch does not have a mount, and at most an okay questline, but what it does have is a reason to log on each day, which is another part that makes a pre-patch worthwhile.

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I agree on some level, but he definitely does get a lot of logic-warping overexposure (somehow a core part of The Battle for Dazar'alor and Battle for Darkshore, despite it being a plot point that both could not be addressed at the same time), and his "cool" traits are present in the sense that he still always has a snide remark that never gets put back on him.

He never seems to lose his overall center. His second fight against Tyrande was kind of one note. It was a perfect opportunity for the bluster to break apart and for him to shit himself and be reduced to a blubbering mess that got obliterated by a blind Moonfire but instead he kind of just gloated and indirectly got what he wanted.

Hell, the quest giver for killing him treats him like some kind of S-tier villain levels of horror, like they just saw Deathwing or something. That just shouldn't be. He's just a talented Dark Ranger. He shouldn't have survived the first encounter with the two Val'kyr to begin with, but to have him be faced down with a fuckton of Argent Crusaders AND a large raid party of demigod level players and still get a chance to survive and look arrogant and collected before Tyrande arrives is just...what.

While I wouldn't necessarily call him one, Villain Sues/Anti-Sues can exist. "Positive" qualities are relative and a character can still overtake their welcome and have overexposure to the story while having negative ones.

I mentioned it before when the video came out, but what I felt that cinematic, and possibly questline in general really lacked was a sense of tragedy. I didnt need to see Nathanos pathetic and begging, but he is whether intentionally or not, written as a tragic figure. The latest book was essentially him losing the last thing he had in life, the only thing he considered worthwhile, the thing he had given up everything else for. The cinematic really didnt show that properly.

[Eurhetemec]

I agree on some level, but he definitely does get a lot of logic-warping overexposure (somehow a core part of The Battle for Dazar'alor and Battle for Darkshore, despite it being a plot point that both could not be addressed at the same time), and his "cool" traits are present in the sense that he still always has a snide remark that never gets put back on him.

He never seems to lose his overall center. His second fight against Tyrande was kind of one note. It was a perfect opportunity for the bluster to break apart and for him to shit himself and be reduced to a blubbering mess that got obliterated by a blind Moonfire but instead he kind of just gloated and indirectly got what he wanted.

Hell, the quest giver for killing him treats him like some kind of S-tier villain levels of horror, like they just saw Deathwing or something. That just shouldn't be. He's just a talented Dark Ranger. He shouldn't have survived the first encounter with the two Val'kyr to begin with, but to have him be faced down with a fuckton of Argent Crusaders AND a large raid party of demigod level players and still get a chance to survive and look arrogant and collected before Tyrande arrives is just...what.

While I wouldn't necessarily call him one, Villain Sues/Anti-Sues can exist. "Positive" qualities are relative and a character can still overtake their welcome and have overexposure to the story while having negative ones.

I definitely agree that he's overexposed!

You see this a lot in comic-books, like in the X-Men in Claremont's era, several villains got "overexposed", it was almost a Claremont trademark. A villain starts out reasonable and then it's just like "fucking kill him already", but the writers have mapped out too long a story for him or whatever. And the writers loathe the villains, often. Claremont viscerally hated some of the guys he created and overexposed. None of them were self-inserts for Claremont, that's for sure.

But you don't seem to be processing that Nathanos DID get humiliated. He got cut off mid-rant. This punk loves to talk. He loves to talk shit. He rants and rants. And that got taken away from in, and he died with an embarrassing gurgle. This is the equivalent of Dirty Harry shooting a villain mid-rant or something. Yeah it's not as good as Hans Gruber getting shot out the window, but I don't think many villain deaths are.

Anyway, I can buy that they should have had how he was taken down be better, and they should have toned down just how incredibly annoying he was (again, a common flaw in comic-books and in some movies and TV - I can't remember what show it was but something in the 2010s had a villain just like this, despite being quite popular - starts out effective, then just gets annoying).

So criticize-able writing? Absolutely. Self-insert? What the fuck? Zing stuff for the real reasons, people.

(Re: 2 places at once, I'm pretty sure that's a fuck-up and them just not having a good way to fix it because stuff is too far along in production once it's realized that it's the case.)

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I mentioned it before when the video came out, but what I felt that cinematic, and possibly questline in general really lacked was a sense of tragedy. I didnt need to see Nathanos pathetic and begging, but he is whether intentionally or not, written as a tragic figure. The latest book was essentially him losing the last thing he had in life, the only thing he considered worthwhile, the thing he had given up everything else for. The cinematic really didnt show that properly.

True. I think part of the the issue is that they've made his in-game persona so ANNOYING that we wouldn't feel much if they went for tragic.

[TomatoBisque]

vadic's complaints are the same stuff Eurhetemec was addressing

like, wow, the villain continued to be an arrogant dick instead of having a break down and crying and begging for mercy? I'm shocked, this has never happened before in blizzard's storytelling before

I'm honestly baffled why someone would want a character with so much buildup to be obliterated in a cutscene so that we can get Noname Mcfuckface #728 as a raidboss instead.

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True. I think part of the the issue is that they've made his in-game persona so ANNOYING that we wouldn't feel much if they went for tragic.

I don't think Nathanos is that annoying, he just thinks he's hot shit because he's the #2 to his waifu and he does the classic bad guy thing of treating his underlings like shit. People just don't like it because they're the underling in this case

the power level thing at Darkshore is the only really dumb thing but power levels in wow are a joke anyway

[Vakir]

I mentioned it before when the video came out, but what I felt that cinematic, and possibly questline in general really lacked was a sense of tragedy. I didnt need to see Nathanos pathetic and begging, but he is whether intentionally or not, written as a tragic figure. The latest book was essentially him losing the last thing he had in life, the only thing he considered worthwhile, the thing he had given up everything else for. The cinematic really didnt show that properly.

I think that's what's in the cards next. He's ranting about how he'll be sent straight to Sylvanas, but she pretty much considered him dust flicked from her fingers in Shadows Rising, and Roux more or less referred to her as breaking up with him. So while everyone is speculating that he'll be a raid boss later (perhaps) I think the tragic outcome is going to be more finding him languishing in the Maw and not being helped at all. In un-life, he failed to stop Bwonsamdi as was asked before he was killed by Tyrande, who was never meant to be a player in the first place, so Sylvanas will likely not be pleased. The tragedy will set in that there isn't hope coming for him. He's just another soul expended for the plan. At least, that's what I anticipate.

So criticize-able writing? Absolutely. Self-insert? What the fuck? Zing stuff for the real reasons, people.

Jury's out on if he's going to have proper payoff of humiliation. It's meaningless if it is not directly observed by the player. He loves to talk but it also kinda read as him baiting her to kill him. That being said, when Dark Mirror established their relationship in the first place, was written by Steve, Nathanos' likeness was based off Steve, Steve goes on to be the Hunter Order Hall guy after Nathanos was the hunter trainer in Undercity, plus all the other nonsense in the now-overshared pic of his social media history...I dunno. Maybe it's not a direct self-insert by virtue of shitty qualities. It's still irritating.

I'm honestly baffled why someone would want a character with so much buildup to be obliterated in a cutscene so that we can get Noname Mcfuckface #728 as a raidboss instead.

We'd still have the equivalent of Noname McFuckface #728 as a future raid boss in this situation.

His name would just be Nathanos Blightcaller.

[huth]

I agree on some level, but he definitely does get a lot of logic-warping overexposure (somehow a core part of The Battle for Dazar'alor and Battle for Darkshore, despite it being a plot point that both could not be addressed at the same time), and his "cool" traits are present in the sense that he still always has a snide remark that never gets put back on him.

The plot point was in regard to army logistics. That's why we get sent, because individuals can move fast enough to be useful (and we're powerful enough to make a difference), but armies take to long to mobilise.

[Vakir]

The plot point was in regard to army logistics. That's why we get sent, because individuals can move fast enough to be useful (and we're powerful enough to make a difference), but armies take to long to mobilise.

That's fair enough. But did he also need to be on the ship at the Seething Shore barking orders? Dude's pretty much everywhere, completely omnipresent. It's not noticeable with any other character.

Don't get it twisted, I get tired of NPCs continuously sucking our dicks, and I actually like and continuously ask for a sort of soft reboot and return to being humble heroes and part of something "bigger," it's the exception of the rule being solely him that just seems conspicuous.

[huth]

Don't get it twisted, I get tired of NPCs continuously sucking our dicks, and I actually like and continuously ask for a sort of soft reboot and return to being humble heroes and part of something "bigger," it's the exception of the rule being solely him that just seems conspicuous.

I'm not sure how you could do that other than placing us somewhere where both nobody knows us and our previous achievements are meaningless. And even if you did, we'd just rise up again anyway.

[Vakir]

I'm not sure how you could do that other than placing us somewhere where both nobody knows us and our previous achievements are meaningless. And even if you did, we'd just rise up again anyway.

Eh, all in presentation. Less NPCs giving us a pat on the back with a "well done, hero!" More decentralized and episodic conflicts, similar to the miniature arcs in the Cataclysm revamp to show a progression of time, culture, and setting. You can't totally undo it without a direct sequel, which is not gonna happen, but we don't need a new Commander/(Order Hall Leader)/Champion of Azeroth/Maw Walker every time. But since they've outright said (per Brack) they want to treat each expansion as a kind of self-contained campaign, I doubt any change to that is in the cards.

It's not a HUGE deal or anything, I'm more bringing it up in reference to Nate being the only real exception to the rule with any consistency.

[Sondrelk]

Eh, all in presentation. Less NPCs giving us a pat on the back with a "well done, hero!" More decentralized and episodic conflicts, similar to the miniature arcs in the Cataclysm revamp to show a progression of time, culture, and setting. You can't totally undo it without a direct sequel, which is not gonna happen, but we don't need a new Commander/(Order Hall Leader)/Champion of Azeroth/Maw Walker every time. But since they've outright said (per Brack) they want to treat each expansion as a kind of self-contained campaign, I doubt any change to that is in the cards.

It's not a HUGE deal or anything, I'm more bringing it up in reference to Nate being the only real exception to the rule with any consistency.

I think a whole lot could be done by just not having the big titles being handed to the player at the very start. BfA was the most egregious example of this, immediately starting the campaign with you being the "Champion of Azeroth".
Things like that could be more impactful if that is on the tail-end of an expansion.

[Sondrelk]

darkshore did give a mount, the undercity plaguebat and the Teldrassil Hippogryph.

Yeah, I see now that I made a small clerical error. Though I feel that given I say that you did in fact get a mount in the first paragraph I am somehwat vindicated.