9.0 General Discussion

[Eapoe]

She is morally grey only because Blizzard said so. None of her actions prove it though. Neither the way she presents herself, her thoughts, her opinion. Everything about her is vile at best, evil at worst.

If they for some pathetic reason write her to be a saviour or whatever other nonsense her fanboys want her to be, after 2 (and then however long will it last in SL) expansions then it's a bad writing, simple as that. You just can't write a character as evil from the begining then at the last moment reveal "SURPIRSE! AKCHUALY it all had a reason she wanted to save us all!!"

IDK what cosmic troubles are there in the universe, nothing allowed her to use unwilling azerothians, spark a baseless war, kill people, separate families and destroy homes. This isnt morally grey, it's evil. Unless you want to argue Sargeras is morally grey too, because his "intentions" were good even if the way he wanted to do it is extremely bad.

She hasn’t been written as a villain over 2 expansions. Some of her deeds are considered villainous, such as the burning of Teldrassil.
The thing everyone who loves to hate on her keeps overlooking is that every time she actually talks about her plans they include things such as “set us free,” and usually talks about the endgame.
Things to consider: if she is looking to conquer death and free everyone from its clutches then what she is doing she doesn’t consider it evil. She’s not killing people because she enjoys it, she’s doing it because she wants to gain power to overcome something that she feels looms over and threatens everyone: death. If she conquers it, and possibly even the Jailer, it’s possible she is planning on returning everyone and setting them free.
It f she is planning this then she sees herself as a savior and not a villain, and if those are her intentions and they do succeed then she is perhaps the good guy of the xpacs.
It’s also possible that she is doing it simply because she is evil and wants to rule over everything and everyone. She might be completely evil.
That’s the rub. We don’t know, and won’t know until Blizzard reveals it.
All I know is that all thru BfA she wasn’t spouting things like “I’ll rule them all,” or “I will have all the power.” She stated things like “we will be free from death,” and “I will set them free.” Her shout of “the Horde is NOTHING!” actually further solidifies she has bigger plans as in the grand scheme of things the Horde can’t stop death or their subjugation to it.

This is all written from someone who doesn’t even really like her character. I just try to actually decipher what Blizzard is hinting at and leading us towards rather then “Sylvanas is evil because I can’t stand her.”

[Sondrelk]

She hasn’t been written as a villain over 2 expansions. Some of her deeds are considered villainous, such as the burning of Teldrassil.
The thing everyone who loves to hate on her keeps overlooking is that every time she actually talks about her plans they include things such as “set us free,” and usually talks about the endgame.
Things to consider: if she is looking to conquer death and free everyone from its clutches then what she is doing she doesn’t consider it evil. She’s not killing people because she enjoys it, she’s doing it because she wants to gain power to overcome something that she feels looms over and threatens everyone: death. If she conquers it, and possibly even the Jailer, it’s possible she is planning on returning everyone and setting them free.
It f she is planning this then she sees herself as a savior and not a villain, and if those are her intentions and they do succeed then she is perhaps the good guy of the xpacs.
It’s also possible that she is doing it simply because she is evil and wants to rule over everything and everyone. She might be completely evil.
That’s the rub. We don’t know, and won’t know until Blizzard reveals it.
All I know is that all thru BfA she wasn’t spouting things like “I’ll rule them all,” or “I will have all the power.” She stated things like “we will be free from death,” and “I will set them free.” Her shout of “the Horde is NOTHING!” actually further solidifies she has bigger plans as in the grand scheme of things the Horde can’t stop death or their subjugation to it.

This is all written from someone who doesn’t even really like her character. I just try to actually decipher what Blizzard is hinting at and leading us towards rather then “Sylvanas is evil because I can’t stand her.”

Not written as a villain? What part of declaring hope meaningless and forcing someoen to watch as their family and friends painfully burn to death is even remotely morally ambigious?

Again, the main sticking point that any Sylvanas redemption would have to start adressing over anything else is why Sylvanas didnt just tell anyone what her plan was.
Sure, people might consider the solution evil or insane. Anduin might ask for more time that maybe they don't have, or Genn would not trust her at all. But the opportunity to simply sit the various faction leaders down and saying exactly what the problem is was there.

Yeah, sure. Sylvanas is empowering the Jailer, killing people left and right, destablizing nations, releasing N'zoth and generally coming across like the most evil character we have seen in recent times, but she could always just ressurect everyone somehow.
How does that help rebuilding Teldrassil? How does that help those who went insane because of N'zoth, or even just got ailments from her attacks? I guess at least it would be good then that the Horde got off without having to pay anything, the relationship with the rest of Azeroth could have been destroyed forever considering what happened.

Let us take for a moment her cry of "the Horde is nothing!"
If she was not villainous, why not just let Saurfang go and escape without killing anyone else? A single soul couldnt possibly be that powerful, especially not when counted next to the cities she destroyed.

The problem with a Sylvanas redemption is that absolutely nothing so far points to her being good.
Giving her a redemption arc would essentially retcon the entirety of BfA, which I somehow doubt will happen right after it finished, no matter how crappy it was. If anything it is more likely then that we get the full "it was all a dream" shtick to explain away Sylvanas' evil deeds.

[Jastall]

Huh, duh? You don't need to be remotely passionate to understand how that is a problem. Alleria and Umbric were wasted in favour of characters like Magni and Wrathion who already had ton of screentime and focus. Anduin never even thinks about asking Alleria and Umbric for advice on how to deal with a literal SPAWN OF THE VOID LORDS THEMSELVES.

If anything, it surprises me a lot that not many people complain about this. People around here constantly moan about how the orcs and blood elves were nowhere to be seen during the Argus patch or Tyrande and Malfurion did not fight Azshara in 8.2, but no one ever brings up how the best Void users and scholars in the Alliance had 0 role in a patch solely dedicated to the Old Gods.

Except, you know, as hostile bosses in a cryptic Vision. Which was very badass, don't get me wrong. Seeing Alleria single-handedly corrupt Stormwind was badass. But it was not what I anticipated.

It is especially frustrating because in 8.2.5 Alleria was the ONLY ONE to bring up the gravity of the threat posed by N'Zoth, and how perhaps it was wise to form a truce with Sylvanas to deal with the Old God. Yet she is nowhere to be seen during the actual fight with N'Zoth. Talk about an actual red herring.

Because not many people actually care about these characters. The Void Elves as a race are popular Alliance side because of the pretty BE model but that's it, Umbric is about as "who?" tier as Ji Firepaw and Mayla Highmountain. Nobody, or close enough, is anywhere near as obsessed with these guys as you are. There's your explanation, take it or leave it.

[razorpax]

So slight detour from the current topic

The undead are supposedly immune to OG influences...could that be due to the fact that originally the undead are servants of the jailer??

Similar to the Nathrezim who chopped off his horns and became light forged which SHOULD guarantee purification and devotion to the light but apparently he is a double agent.

This means the rendorei will always be the possible servants of the void but are possibly the best weapon against the jailer alongside the lightforged of which we only have 1 soldier and also Anduin who isn’t light forged but does have a strong connection...this same connection could be why Arthas was never a complete servant to the jailer.

[Sondrelk]

So slight detour from the current topic

The undead are supposedly immune to OG influences...could that be due to the fact that originally the undead are servants of the jailer??

Similar to the Nathrezim who chopped off his horns and became light forged which SHOULD guarantee purification and devotion to the light but apparently he is a double agent.

This means the rendorei will always be the possible servants of the void but are possibly the best weapon against the jailer alongside the lightforged of which we only have 1 soldier and also Anduin who isn’t light forged but does have a strong connection...this same connection could be why Arthas was never a complete servant to the jailer.

The only real indication we have that Undead are immune to Old God influence comes from those taht are already controlled, which more likely should be taken to mean that Old Gods cannot control someone who is alreayd being controlled by someone else.

[razorpax]

The only real indication we have that Undead are immune to Old God influence comes from those taht are already controlled, which more likely should be taken to mean that Old Gods cannot control someone who is alreayd being controlled by someone else.

So if we take that and the double agents into account then (huge leap coming up) the reason we broke free of nzoth would be because we are technically agents of Azeroth and thus we champions are immune to mind control

[Varodoc]

Only the undead of the Scourge were immune to Old God control, and that was because they were already controlled by the Lich King. With the Lich King gone, the Jailer easily took over the Scourge. There's no reason why N'Zoth couldn't have done the same thing if he were still around after Bolvar's defeat.

Undead NOT mind-controlled are susceptible to the whispers. An example of this is Domina. She is an undead who leads the Twilight's Hammer forces in Blackfathom Deeps. She is very clearly driven mad by the influence of the Old Gods, and indeed she serves the Twilight's Hammer, the cult organization devoted to the worship of the Old Gods and the apocalyptic Hour of Twilight.

[TickTickTick]

*Sylvanas died heroically & selflessly. She was not "evil from the beginning" in fact she only started doing evil shit about the same time they invented The Jailer

High Elf Sylvanas and Banshee Queen Sylvanas are entirely different characters at this point. I understand what you're saying, but the moment Arthas killed her, a new character was born. She even mocked her former self.

*"Surprise it was actually because she wanted to save us all" has been done before, and the audience's response was positive, with Illidan. Illidan didn't have a redeption story: He just decided 10,000 years ago that he would commit atrocities in order to defeat a greater evil.

Was it positive though? I remember a lot of talk about retconning. With Legion it was obvious they wanted "that guy who hates the Legion" as a leading figure and decided to bring him as a "well he wasn't LITERALLY like he was portrayed in the game, he had his INNER, hidden intentions" which is equally bad writing. Is it too much to expect the writers to stick to what you did? You wasted Illidan's potential in TBC's lore ridiculousness? Well oh my, too bad. Next time don't be so reckless and dumb about it. I'm surprised Blizzard didn't just flat out say (or maybe they did and I just didn't see it? Who knows with them anymore) that in TBC they already PLANNED how he will play out over 10 years later and intentionally made him this way.

You can still see Illidan as evil, but the game does portray him as a Christ-like figure at the end of Legion despite him killing way more innocent people than Sylvanas at this point

And as with Sylvanas, it's extremely distasteful. I understand it's Blizzard's universe and they are free to do whatever the hell they want with it, but it's still worth pointing out how dumb it gets sometimes. All of it is only because Blizzard wanted it and wrote it this way. Might as well let Gul'dan survive and in 7.3 join Azeroth's forces then end up being Anduin's adopted father. Would it make sense? Absolutely not. But Blizzard want, Blizzard do.

*At this point its clear Sylvanas' choices were to suffer eternal torment in the maw or serve the jailer.

That's why she sentenced countless of others for the fate that awaited her. What a heroic and selfless person Sylvanas is. Don't even start me on the point that, of course, it had to be Sylvanas who could experience all these cosmic-scale things. Not like countless other characters died in this universe. No. Her identity lost any meaning after Arthas died and they figured they have to make up something more grand to keep her relevant cuz pretty gray elf in bikini.

*Just killing her off as a raid boss doesn't propel us into the next expansion. It solves problems rather than create new problems which is a no-no for writing on ongoing story

I want her dead because it's the key to a possibility of bringing Warcraft story back to something sensible, something that can actually make sense. Because since she became the warchief it seems her banshee scream was on the whole time, blinding and deafening every character around her.

The thing everyone who loves to hate on her keeps overlooking is that every time she actually talks about her plans they include things such as “set us free,” and usually talks about the endgame.

She literally had a book featuring her own thoughts and none of them even mentioned it. Just add it into the pile of inconsistencies.

Things to consider: if she is looking to conquer death and free everyone from its clutches then what she is doing she doesn’t consider it evil.

Lol, most evil characters think what they are doing is right.

She’s not killing people because she enjoys it, she’s doing it because she wants to gain power to overcome something that she feels looms over and threatens everyone: death.

She does though. What she says implies it. How she says it implies it. Her reactions and decisions imply it. If she really has pure intentions, there's no need to act like a saturday villain.

If she conquers it, and possibly even the Jailer, it’s possible she is planning on returning everyone and setting them free.
It f she is planning this then she sees herself as a savior and not a villain, and if those are her intentions and they do succeed then she is perhaps the good guy of the xpacs.

Which will spell doom for the lore of Warcraft. Sylvanas hate aside, such story plot sounds so ridiculously wrong it's just hard to explain. You'd think Azeroth being the center of the universe was enough but nope, they have to take it a step further.

It’s also possible that she is doing it simply because she is evil and wants to rule over everything and everyone. She might be completely evil.

It's the only end to this story that would make sense. Anything else I imagine Blizzard writers sitting, twirling a mustache, and thinking "just 10 years more of Sylvanas hiding her intentions and then we'll reveal the bIg PlAn".

Her shout of “the Horde is NOTHING!” actually further solidifies she has bigger plans as in the grand scheme of things the Horde can’t stop death or their subjugation to it.

You're overthinking it. She just overreacted, because old warrior managed to hit this master-of-all-things superhero, like how dare he.

This is all written from someone who doesn’t even really like her character. I just try to actually decipher what Blizzard is hinting at and leading us towards rather then “Sylvanas is evil because I can’t stand her.”

FWIW, I can't stand her because she is toxic to the story of Warcraft and is taking too much space. Feels like we already drifted too far away from what Warcraft used to be, and I hate it.

[Jastall]

The only real indication we have that Undead are immune to Old God influence comes from those taht are already controlled, which more likely should be taken to mean that Old Gods cannot control someone who is alreayd being controlled by someone else.

It's possible that their souls being inadequately bound to their bodies makes undead resistant, even if not immune, to Old God influences in and of itself.

Then again the OGs dominated a number of Keepers which aren't mortals so I dunno. Do they even have souls?

[Haidaes]

It's possible that their souls being inadequately bound to their bodies makes undead resistant, even if not immune, to Old God influences in and of itself.

Then again the OGs dominated a number of Keepers which aren't mortals so I dunno. Do they even have souls?

I mean in theory OGs mindcontroll through suggestion and altering perception (making people see and hear things), it might just not work for people that are already mindless/single minded, like most of the scourge. Though the question then becomes how this would affect the higher-ups of the undead armies, since they usually have a wil of their own.

[Sondrelk]

I mean in theory OGs mindcontroll through suggestion and altering perception (making people see and hear things), it might just not work for people that are already mindless/single minded, like most of the scourge. Though the question then becomes how this would affect the higher-ups of the undead armies, since they usually have a wil of their own.

Higher entities in the Scourge are a mix of both beign controlled by the Lich King, with the ones who are not likely too powerful to be controlled just like that. If Old God mind control was just a simple on off switch that either worked or didnt then we would have to assume pretty much every NPC not currently controlled is immune somehow.

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Seems like something or other is happening to the servers. Unable to log out normally, and when I hard reset to go to a different character I can still see my alts standing there.

[Makabreska]

Online BlizzCon will be free to watch. Seems like a pretty obvious move.

[Ersula]

That's why she sentenced countless of others for the fate that awaited her.

Everyone goes to the maw now & that's not Sylvanas' fault. Sylvanas & the audience has every reason to assume it was broken before she died.

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Only the undead of the Scourge were immune to Old God control

Ah we're just making stuff up now

[Sondrelk]

Everyone goes to the maw now & that's not Sylvanas' fault. Sylvanas & the audience has every reason to assume it was broken before she died.

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Ah we're just making stuff up now

That is some of the most insane rationalization I have heard in a while.
So somehow Sylvanas was allied with the person that clearly benefits from the system being broken, has several moments that could concievably be the moment where she broke it. And even beyond that at some level has to know what she is sending those poor souls she burned alive into.

Even if we assume by some insane coincidence Sylvanas being allied with the Jailer has nothing to with the machine of death being broken, that still doesnt mean that Sylvanas sending the people she killed to superhell is in any way good.
Again, if we go by your view that she is not responsible and that the machine of death was broken before she killed herself, that still means that from her point of view everyone she kills goes to a nightmarish realm of torment. How in the world is sending all those Night Elves there while forcing their defenders to watch as she taunts their feeble attempts at hope in a dire situation in any way good?

Honestly I really do wonder what your mind considers in these situations?
Is Gul'dan taunting Varian before his death actually because he knew Varian had a masochist kink and that was how he wanted to go out?
When Archimonde goaded his master into summoning demons just so he could kill him and take his place, was all the he thought about the puppies that awaited his master in death?

I mean honestly. What level of evil is a step too far for Sylvanas? What could possibly be more cartoonishly evil than setting fire to an entire civilization and forcing Delaryn to watch because she deigned to feel pity for Sylvanas once experiencing what she herself is experiencing then.
What kind hearted person looks down at the person they are killing, hears said person essentially state she forgives her, and because of that decides to set fire to her friend and family and force her to watch?

[Nagawithlegs]

I find it interesting how much foreshadowing there is for a “Bad Light” expansion but not so much for a “Bad Void”. I know we just did Nzoth but they will have to show a distinction between Old God and Void eventually, and I don’t think they would do an expansion solely focused around the Light.

The only thing so far is Xalatath and maybe Azshara and something with the Elementals, though again that was more Old Gods tied.

Maybe instead of Light and Void it’s Light and something else?

[Makabreska]

I mean honestly. What level of evil is a step too far for Sylvanas? What could possibly be more cartoonishly evil than setting fire to an entire civilization and forcing Delaryn to watch because she deigned to feel pity for Sylvanas once experiencing what she herself is experiencing then.
What kind hearted person looks down at the person they are killing, hears said person essentially state she forgives her, and because of that decides to set fire to her friend and family and force her to watch?

I mean, it's either A. Sylvi had a deal with Jailer so she did a super cold and cruel move of sending 10k nelves to Maw to further his plans, or B. she did it for the lolz cuz she was taunted by a dying nelf. Which one you guys prefer? But mental gymnastics were already applied to these scenarios here ("ohhhh Syliv is doing all o this killing to fix the Machine of Death®, she is gunna save us all!!11")

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I find it interesting how much foreshadowing there is for a “Bad Light” expansion but not so much for a “Bad Void”. I know we just did Nzoth but they will have to show a distinction between Old God and Void eventually, and I don’t think they would do an expansion solely focused around the Light.

The only thing so far is Xalatath and maybe Azshara and something with the Elementals, though again that was more Old Gods tied.

Maybe instead of Light and Void it’s Light and something else?

They alr shown us the distinction. Void elves.

[Dracullus]

Hmm, since February Blizzcon will be free to watch, theory that store transmog is leftover from 2020 virtual ticket is very likely.

I find it interesting how much foreshadowing there is for a “Bad Light” expansion but not so much for a “Bad Void”. I know we just did Nzoth but they will have to show a distinction between Old God and Void eventually, and I don’t think they would do an expansion solely focused around the Light.

The only thing so far is Xalatath and maybe Azshara and something with the Elementals, though again that was more Old Gods tied.

Maybe instead of Light and Void it’s Light and something else?

I picture 10.0 something like that:

1. Set on Azeroth.
2. Return of Khadgar, and later Illidan, Pantheon with Sargeras.
3. Tinker regular class (maybe with some titan themes).
4. Squish to 50 on pre-patch, default route: 1-10 Exile's Reach, 10-50 revamped 'pristine' EK/Azeroth, 50-60 Dragon Isles
5. Main theme: full war between Light vs. Void for Azeroth, we are stuck between with some exceptions (like Turalyon and Yrel slaving for Light)
6. Instead Covenants, you choose between Light themed or Void themed class. Maybe you just use their powers, or you pick a side on early expac.
7. Later we realize both sides are bad and fight all with Pantheon and Azeroth.
8. Expansion end with Azeroth awakening, planet is intact, but there is huge hole instead of sword in Silithus.

[Haidaes]

Online BlizzCon will be free to watch. Seems like a pretty obvious move.

How so? I found that one to be quite surprising. They already charged for a video feed in the past and one would expect that doing it online would allow them an ever tighter format worth more to potential watchers.

[Makabreska]

How so? I found that one to be quite surprising. They already charged for a video feed in the past and one would expect that doing it online would allow them an ever tighter format worth more to potential watchers.

Becasue they don't have to cover all those costs of organizing big event for a big crowd. No huge electricity bills, no concerts, no big staff. Oh I'm sure they would charge if they knew they can get away with it. But sometimes a little "good will" is worth more.

[Varodoc]

Everyone goes to the maw now & that's not Sylvanas' fault. Sylvanas & the audience has every reason to assume it was broken before she died.

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Ah we're just making stuff up now

Maybe do not cut the part where I thoroughly explain how this works.

Put me on ignore please, because clearly you have a problem with me. I do not even know why you engage me in conversations, when all you can do is mock me and constantly start arguments in very bad faith. This one-line reply not only is very rude, but also completely useless and does not disprove my explanation in any way, so either stop replying to me or put me on ignore, because clearly you are not interested in an actual conversation.