9.0 General Discussion

[Revamp Man]

No, not me. The story is. The story of the Shadowlands is basically "Maw Walker does this, Maw Walker does that". Anduin is so far nothing more than a McGuffin.



And the discussion here is whether that's about Anduin or the fact that it is indeed possible to successfully use the waystone.



Which isn't necessarily linked to the other part and may have been the plan ever since they captured him.



Yes, Denathrius/the Venthyr did that. We don't know when and we don't know if there's any connection to the Jailer or if that was just something he did for himself.

The other part is just your speculation. We don't know how Anduin figures into Zovaal's plans, only that he does. But so do umptillions of random souls.

its important to not that anduin and the other mortal souls didnt have any interaction with the waystone it was just the hero

Zoval did say "a relic of the first ones reacting to a mortal??" but it wasnt until anduin blocked his wave of death that he was seemingly interested.

at this point Anduin is even getting special treatment in torghast and is an integral part of the plan.
We also have to take into account that denathrius has been working with the jailer for a bit maybe only as long as the drought maybe not but he does seem to have some interest into the light and since we didnt see anything to do with that interest in the dungeons or the raid then we can assume that the jailer had the interest especially with his reaction to anduin.

[huth]

Zoval did say "a relic of the first ones reacting to a mortal??" but it wasnt until anduin blocked his wave of death that he was seemingly interested.

What do you mean? That didn't even elicit a reaction from him.

at this point Anduin is even getting special treatment in torghast and is an integral part of the plan.

He was also getting special treatment before we even showed up, though. That's not necessarily linked to the scene.

I think that has more to do with Sylvanas than Zovaal.

[Revamp Man]

What do you mean? That didn't even elicit a reaction from him.



He was also getting special treatment before we even showed up, though. That's not necessarily linked to the scene.

I think that has more to do with Sylvanas than Zovaal.

about 1:40

the ways the jailer speaks to anduin makes you think hes interested in him specifically which is true because sylvanas tells him "you are a weapon we shall use"

if the weapon part is about being a mortal that can cross over then why not use sylvanas?? Why was Baine lacking??

currently from what i can see, personally i believe it is a connection to the light and the jailer needs it to accomplish something. The naaru being tortured and the fact Denathrius did something to the light also has me thinking this because denathrius works for the jailer

[huth]

about 1:40

the ways the jailer speaks to anduin makes you think hes interested in him specifically which is true because sylvanas tells him "you are a weapon we shall use"

Go look at the scene again. It shows the Maw Walker disappearing and then cuts to the Jailer saying "Interesting" and crushing Anduin's shield. He's not talking about Anduin. He's talking about the PC.

Anduin's "the Light is with me" didn't even get a reaction at all.

[Sondrelk]

Go look at the scene again. It shows the Maw Walker disappearing and then cuts to the Jailer saying "Interesting" and crushing Anduin's shield. He's not talking about Anduin. He's talking about the PC.

Anduin's "the Light is with me" didn't even get a reaction at all.

Or, counterpoint. He saw the Maw Walker leaving, then noticed that Anduin was using the Light and decided to go after him.

The Jailer clearly saw something of note in Anduin specifically that warranted capturing him and trying to convert him as opposed to the otehrs that were presumably just captured and put in Torghast.

[huth]

Or, counterpoint. He saw the Maw Walker leaving, then noticed that Anduin was using the Light and decided to go after him.

That's not a counterpoint, that's pure speculation with no corresponding evidence. What we get shown is the Maw Walker leaving and an immediate cut to the Jailer saying "Interesting", strongly suggesting that he's talking about that, not Anduin.

The Jailer clearly saw something of note in Anduin specifically that warranted capturing him and trying to convert him as opposed to the otehrs that were presumably just captured and put in Torghast.

Well, yes... but he was already doing that before we even entered the Maw. He just switched operations over to Torghast after we showed up since the Maw was no longer safe territory.

[Sondrelk]

That's not a counterpoint, that's pure speculation with no corresponding evidence. What we get shown is the Maw Walker leaving and an immediate cut to the Jailer saying "Interesting", strongly suggesting that he's talking about that, not Anduin.



Well, yes... but he was already doing that before we even entered the Maw. He just switched operations over to Torghast after we showed up since the Maw was no longer safe territory.

The next tiem we see Anduin he is being treated differently from the rest somehow, with Sylvanas actively trying ot recruit him alongisde the Jailer.

Whether the Jailer took more interest in the Maw Walker or Anduin he did take some interest in Anduin, which is what we are pointing out. And seeing as the Jailer took more interest in Anduin after that scene we have to assume Anduin did something to show he was a more valuable target that previously thought. The only thing Anduin did of note in that cutscene was summoning the light, which leads us to logically assume that the Jailer took interest in Anduin because he used the Light.

Whether the Jailer was actually more interested in the Maw Walker using the Waystone is irrelevant, because what we are saying is that the Jailer took interest in Anduin because of what he presumably did in that cutscene.

[Sarethion]

Go look at the scene again. It shows the Maw Walker disappearing and then cuts to the Jailer saying "Interesting" and crushing Anduin's shield. He's not talking about Anduin. He's talking about the PC.

The Jailer is 110% reacting to Anduin's light shield, not the PC leaving the Maw. Why? Let's break it down:

- There's no way in hell that the Jailer, one of the oldest and most powerful beings in the Shadowlands that was likely there where the obelisk was made (or at least was familiar with the beings that created it), didn't know what it was for. Like, come on, even some random amalgamation of souls thought that the obelisk could be used to escape the Maw if someone could activate it.

- If the Jailer knew what the obelisk was for, us using it to escape the Maw isn't "interesting" at all... It's just the obelisk doing what it's supposed to be doing. The only interesting bit is that the obelisk reacted to us and activated, but that and the fact that we were able to charge it was something he noticed earlier. The fact we left after charing the obelisk wasn't "interesting", it was a logical consequence of what the Jailer could see happening.

- After we left, the Jailer straight up tells Anduin that he has "precisely what he needs". He's clearly not talking about us, we're out. And the only other character that showed something special was Anduin with his light shield moment, so it's obvious that the Jailer is talking about him. Sylvanas tells Anduin that they're going to use him as a weapon. Or earlier, in the opening experience, she's being clearly disappointed with Anduin.

--- It all adds up - the Jailer needs light powers for something (his ally Denathrius was clearly experimenting with the light). Sylvanas told the Jailer that Anduin is a powerful light user, they captured him, but Anduin didn't want to cooperate and use/show his powers, which is why Sylvanas was disappointed. The Jailer probably thought that their Anduin plan wasn't going to work out until... he saw Anduin use his powers to halt a whole host of Mawsworn troops, proving beyond any doubt that Sylvanas is right and that he can be the weapon they need.

That's far more interesting than some - from the Jailer's perspective - insignificant mortal somehow being able to use the obelisk to escape.

--- As for what the Jailer needs the light for? I think it has something to do with the Heart of the Forest in Ardenweald, i.e. the lock to the Jailer's prison. Perhaps it was created in a way that makes it immune or extremely resistant to death-based powers, so that nobody in the Shadowlands can free the Jailer and thus he needs another power source?

And, let's see, Order is pretty weak after Sargeras turned against the other Titans. Void and Disorder are unpredictable and chaotic. Life is the opposite of death, so it would probably be hard to use... Which leaves us with one, best option - Light.

[huth]

TWhether the Jailer was actually more interested in the Maw Walker using the Waystone is irrelevant, because what we are saying is that the Jailer took interest in Anduin because of what he presumably did in that cutscene.

Except, as i just mentioned, he was already doing that before.

The Jailer is 110% reacting to Anduin's light shield, not the PC leaving the Maw. Why? Let's break it down:

- There's no way in hell that the Jailer, one of the oldest and most powerful beings in the Shadowlands that was likely there where the obelisk was made (or at least was familiar with the beings that created it), didn't know what it was for. Like, come on, even some random amalgamation of souls thought that the obelisk could be used to escape the Maw if someone could activate it.

- If the Jailer knew what the obelisk was for, us using it to escape the Maw isn't "interesting" at all... It's just the obelisk doing what it's supposed to be doing. The only interesting bit is that the obelisk reacted to us and activated, but that and the fact that we were able to charge it was something he noticed earlier. The fact we left after charing the obelisk wasn't "interesting", it was a logical consequence of what the Jailer could see happening.

Did you miss the part where nobody even paid attention to it because it doesn't work for anybody but the Maw Walker? Of course it is interesting to the Jailer that the Waystone that reacts to nobody else shows not just signs of activity, but is fully usable by this person. No, it's not "just the obelisk doing what it's supposed to" because the obelisk is actually not supposed to be doing anything. The Maw is meant to be an inescapable prison and the Waystone was deliberately disabled.

[Sarethion]

Waystone was deliberately disabled.

If the obelisk's purpose was to transport people out of the Maw, then the fact that it did it for someone is not interesting at all. It just does what it was likely meant to do before it was deactivated. It's not some big, interesting reveal that, if activated, the obelisk can transport somebody out of the Maw.

The interesting part is that the Maw Walker activated the obelisk, which is something the Jailer could see before that cinematic even happened. Heck, the Jailer seeing that we're activating the obelisk somehow is the whole reason why he even appeared in that location himself instead of just sending his troops like he did for the entire time we spent in the Maw until that point. And when he arrived, he could clearly see that the Maw Walker was successfully charging the obelisk.

There wasn't anything particularly exciting to comment on here - yes, it's interesting that the Maw Walker was able to use the obelisk, but at the time of the "interesting" quote that was already old news. The new, "interesting" news was Anduin's light shield. And that's what the quote referred to.

[huth]

If the obelisk's purpose was to transport people out of the Maw, then the fact that it did it for someone is not interesting at all. It just does what it was likely meant to do before it was deactivated. It's not some big, interesting reveal that, if activated, the obelisk can transport somebody out of the Maw.

The interesting part is that the Maw Walker activated the obelisk, which is something the Jailer could see before that cinematic even happened.

You're conflating multiple events. There are three distinct actions; having the Waystone react; having the waystone charge up; and using the Waystone to teleport out. You assume for no reason that being able to do one automatically confers the ability to do the other two. I could easily get some mechanism to react without being able to actually make it work. Just take a locked PC: Even if you don't know the password, you certainly can get it to react. Probably in the "wrong password" manner. For that matter, it's often still possible to get a broken machine to start up and then break down without getting any actual work done.

You're right that it is no big reveal that it can be used to get out of the Maw, as that was its purpose. But you're missing two things: a) It's supposed to be broken and unusable and b) being able to get a reaction and being able to activate it is not the same thing.

The Jailer flat-out states his surprise that we get any reaction at all and proceeds to take things in his own hands. He is then further intrigued when we cannot only get it to budge, but can actually get it to start up and work fully, if only for ourselves.

There wasn't anything particularly exciting to comment on here - yes, it's interesting that the Maw Walker was able to use the obelisk, but at the time of the "interesting" quote that was already old news.

Wrong. The quote happens only seconds after the use, because the actual use is the teleportation, not the chargeup. It's made rather explicit that nothing except us can get through later as well, with it even being shown that the Jailer continuously attempts to send probes through that keep getting shot down. (You can just go to the Maw and wait a little near the Waystone. Look for the small eyes.)

On the other hand, Anduin's lightshow should be something he has already seen. They've been there for a while already, and Jaina explicitly states that wasn't her first escape.

[Sarethion]

He is then further intrigued when we cannot only get it to budge, but can actually get it to start up and work fully, if only for ourselves.

That is a fair point, I'll give you that - it's possible the Jailer expected that we'll charge the obelisk only to get some "error" at the last second and as such, the fact that it didn't happen could have been something interesting. Still, given the other points I've listed earlier, I'm sticking with my theory that he was intruiged by Anduin.

[huth]

That is a fair point, I'll give you that - it's possible the Jailer expected that we'll charge the obelisk only to get some "error" at the last second and as such, the fact that it didn't happen could have been something interesting. Still, given the other points I've listed earlier, I'm sticking with my theory that he was intruiged by Anduin.

We actually seemingly did get an error, even. It stops charging at 80%. Only then does the cutscene even start.

But there's also this whole "death wave" which is slowly creeping towards us for no apparent reason, seeing as he clearly both has the power to completely crush Anduin's lightshow easily and do so rather quickly. Which actually suggests that not only was he perfectly aware of Anduin's abilities, he was fully expecting him to pull that move. Remember: The 4 have been stuck in the Maw for what to them was apparently an extended period of time, with Jaina outright stating that she had repeatedly staged escapes, only to get recaptured over and over. The idea that Zovaal somehow doesn't know about Anduin's Light is rather odd, especially since he already had intel from Sylvanas.

[Revamp Man]

That's not a counterpoint, that's pure speculation with no corresponding evidence. What we get shown is the Maw Walker leaving and an immediate cut to the Jailer saying "Interesting", strongly suggesting that he's talking about that, not Anduin.



Well, yes... but he was already doing that before we even entered the Maw. He just switched operations over to Torghast after we showed up since the Maw was no longer safe territory.

if the jailer took interest in the maw walker then he would send his forces after us
the mawsworn can go back and forth

[huth]

if the jailer took interest in the maw walker then he would send his forces after us
the mawsworn can go back and forth

But he loses his ability to act freely and only has limited surveillance.

For what it's worth, Denathrius may have been trying for that.

[Revamp Man]

We actually seemingly did get an error, even. It stops charging at 80%. Only then does the cutscene even start.

But there's also this whole "death wave" which is slowly creeping towards us for no apparent reason, seeing as he clearly both has the power to completely crush Anduin's lightshow easily and do so rather quickly. Which actually suggests that not only was he perfectly aware of Anduin's abilities, he was fully expecting him to pull that move. Remember: The 4 have been stuck in the Maw for what to them was apparently an extended period of time, with Jaina outright stating that she had repeatedly staged escapes, only to get recaptured over and over. The idea that Zovaal somehow doesn't know about Anduin's Light is rather odd, especially since he already had intel from Sylvanas.

if he was expecting that move then he would have just made it crush it immediately
if he wanted to see us succeed he wouldnt have sent his forces

im thinking in february we will see what happens

[huth]

if he was expecting that move then he would have just made it crush it immediately
if he wanted to see us succeed he wouldnt have sent his forces

im thinking in february we will see what happens

It's quite clear the Jailer cares a lot about manipulating people into acting a certain way, and that he is quite good at doing so.
The troops were there for intimidation, same reason he pulled that death wave stunt. He could have just crushed us immediately, after all, he does just that the moment we leave and through Anduin's shield as well. There is nothing that would have stopped him from just doing that the moment he showed up other than that he didn't want to. Everything else was just for show.

[Grimbold21]

Good day everyone and a Merry Christmas


.... except for you all undercutters, may it be sour and terrible. Bloody idiots. First time in ages I was doing decent cash with BS and a couple of idiots are undercutting stuff by 1k

[Sondrelk]

Good day everyone and a Merry Christmas


.... except for you all undercutters, may it be sour and terrible. Bloody idiots. First time in ages I was doing decent cash with BS and a couple of idiots are undercutting stuff by 1k

Buy it and sell with a profit.

[Revamp Man]

It's quite clear the Jailer cares a lot about manipulating people into acting a certain way, and that he is quite good at doing so.
The troops were there for intimidation, same reason he pulled that death wave stunt. He could have just crushed us immediately, after all, he does just that the moment we leave and through Anduin's shield as well. There is nothing that would have stopped him from just doing that the moment he showed up other than that he didn't want to. Everything else was just for show.

unless its like that stereotypical moment of "im going to just breathe in your direction and beat you...ok i may have to snap my fingers"

im wondering if due to how death and the light interact (EXPLOSIVELY) if he is looking for a way to twist the light into a power of death which explains the naaru experiment since apparently he wont be welcome back into the light because hes "tainted"

im wondering if his plan is to harness the power of the light so that he will have a way to fight against the other eternal ones. He has been planning this for a long long time since he apparently made the weapons of domination and gave it to the dread lords to give to sargeras to eventually get "to that which the first ones kept hidden" and they had manipulated events to lead Arthas to becoming the lich king. Arthas was an OP light user and atleast according to the game and some on this forum he fought the jailers influence just enough to keep from releasing undeath upon the planet.

He gets arthas in death but is unworthy so he needs to find a stronger soul connected to the light which is found within anduin. This is 99% speculation but im guessing it is going to be revealed in 9.1 possibly