9.0 General Discussion

[formerShandalay]

This is really not a surprise, it was said @ Blizzcon this is the place of Val'kyrs origin.

I mean, we learned in Legion that Odyn created the Val'kyr after he had his glimpse into the Shadowlands (and traded his eye).
I do think that there is a difference however, even though this hasn't been said in any panel or anything, but it's from those lore-tablets in the Halls of Valor, that the spirit healers and Val'kyr are specifically undead, and not dead. Odyn wanted his val'kyr to be of both realms, which is why he had to make them undead, I think. If they were dead, they'd be Kyrians and not beholden to him anymore, but to the Shadowlands. When they broke free of him, they seem to have forged a connection to the Shadowlands, however, because now they serve as spirit healers still, funnelling souls either back to life, if they are still tethered to there for whatever cause or towards the Shadowlands (this last part was said about them specifically in the panels at Blizzcon).

Edit:

If anything Blizzard is still TOO subtle about it. The amount of casual players that have no idea that the playable Kul Tirans have Vrykul heritage and traditions is huge.

The problem here is that there is no source to be found for this. I've looked, because I've had this discussion and I was kind of sure I'd heard or read it somewhere, but... I could for the life of me not find it. Is there an actual source or are we just implying that, because it's a reasonable assumption in the context of WoW?

[Nagawithlegs]

I mean, we learned in Legion that Odyn created the Val'kyr after he had his glimpse into the Shadowlands (and traded his eye).
I do think that there is a difference however, even though this hasn't been said in any panel or anything, but it's from those lore-tablets in the Halls of Valor, that the spirit healers and Val'kyr are specifically undead, and not dead. Odyn wanted his val'kyr to be of both realms, which is why he had to make them undead, I think. If they were dead, they'd be Kyrians and not beholden to him anymore, but to the Shadowlands. When they broke free of him, they seem to have forged a connection to the Shadowlands, however, because now they serve as spirit healers still, funnelling souls either back to life, if they are still tethered to there for whatever cause or towards the Shadowlands (this last part was said about them specifically in the panels at Blizzcon).

I don't think Kyrians are Val'kyr, nor are Spirit Healers, regardless of what Blizz said (though they may have just been talking about how Val'kyr were created in their image). Val'kyr were created specifically by Odyn who was inspired by/had a severe crush on the Kyrians he saw in the Shadowlands.

I also am not sure if the Spirit Healers we see on Azeroth are old Val'kyr, I thought they were just Kyrians assigned to Azeroth.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I mean, Shadowlands is Azeroth's afterlife, would be weird if galactic demons went there.

Well its afterlife of mortals specifically, so even the species from other planets go here. I just think Blizzard has an opportunity to explore more smaller afterlife places. Like the place the Ancestors of Orcs go to, some paradise the Light seems to have, etc etc.

[formerShandalay]

I don't think Kyrians are Val'kyr, nor are Spirit Healers, regardless of what Blizz said (though they may have just been talking about how Val'kyr were created in their image). Val'kyr were created specifically by Odyn who was inspired by/had a severe crush on the Kyrians he saw in the Shadowlands.

I also am not sure if the Spirit Healers we see on Azeroth are old Val'kyr, I thought they were just Kyrians assigned to Azeroth.

Uh, yes, that part was in chronicle vol 1. When Helya broke free of Odyn, her fellow val'kyr did so too and while she created her very own pocket dimension that turned dark, because her mind was darkened, the others weren't as malevolent and simply became spirit healers and guided souls back to the land of the living (and, as we learned now at Blizzcon, to the Shadowlands as well).
It may be that there are spirit healers among them that actually come from the Shadowlands directly and just mingled with the ones that escaped Odyn, but the latter were the ones mentioned in chronicle.

[Makabreska]

Well its afterlife of mortals specifically, so even the species from other planets go here. I just think Blizzard has an opportunity to explore more smaller afterlife places. Like the place the Ancestors of Orcs go to, some paradise the Light seems to have, etc etc.

Not only mortals, spirits and elements go to that purple nature place.

[Syegfryed]

Didn't they specifically have a home planet that got blown up by Illidan in his book?

Yes, but they can retcon that like they always do

Like the blue people, as "spirit healers", who was explicit said to be val'kyr

[Nagawithlegs]

The problem here is that there is no source to be found for this. I've looked, because I've had this discussion and I was kind of sure I'd heard or read it somewhere, but... I could for the life of me not find it. Is there an actual source or are we just implying that, because it's a reasonable assumption in the context of WoW?

There is exactly one dev interview that states that the Drust are indeed Vrykul, the rest is only implied through things like Vrykul runestones in Drustvar and Ulfar and Gorak Tul's appearance (a GIANT bear and a wooden vrykul) as well as the Drust's obsession with and veneration of death.

The HERITAGE part is also only implied by Ulfar, who says that the sympathetic Drust came into Kul Tiran society and their ancestors are the modern thornspeakers (whose NPCs are all the large/fat playable Kul Tirans). This matches up with their height and implies the reason they are so big isn't just "lol they ate a lot" but directly because of their ancestors being actual Vrykul instead of shrunken/cursed ones.

I used to think this was never directly stated in the game because they were scared of pissing players off with the reveal as they would say "WTF WHY NOT JUST GIVE US VRYKUL???" but now that we know the Drust are a part of Shadowlands they may be saving the reveal for later.

[Gurahk]

In-game during the end of the 8.2.5 questline, Nathanos confesses his love to Sylvanas and she just walks away in response. Danuser is self-aware.

Ehh, they both walk away from each other and Nathanos doesn't confess, they're already a couple lol. It's very obvious coming from the books and what's been happening.

[matrix123mko]

Vampiric stuff, Castle Nathria, Nathrezim creating Helm of Domination - there is definitely something up with Nathrezim, I wouldn't be surprised if they're not regular demons, but race that escaped from SL or something.

They were said to be one of the first demon races. If anything, venthyr descend from nathrezim.

[Nagawithlegs]

They were said to be one of the first demon races. If anything, venthyr descend from nathrezim.

Considering the Shadowlands have been stated as one of the oldest dimensions in WoW so far, this could just mean that Venthyr became one of the first demon races. The lore is iffy now on whether or not inherent demons actually exist: it's completely possible that all demons have to exist as a previous race that gets corrupted.

[formerShandalay]

There is exactly one dev interview that states that the Drust are indeed Vrykul, the rest is only implied through things like Vrykul runestones in Drustvar and Ulfar and Gorak Tul's appearance (a GIANT bear and a wooden vrykul) as well as the Drust's obsession with and veneration of death.

The HERITAGE part is also only implied by Ulfar, who says that the sympathetic Drust came into Kul Tiran society and their ancestors are the modern thornspeakers (whose NPCs are all the large/fat playable Kul Tirans). This matches up with their height and implies the reason they are so big isn't just "lol they ate a lot" but directly because of their ancestors being actual Vrykul instead of shrunken/cursed ones.

I used to think this was never directly stated in the game because they were scared of pissing players off with the reveal as they would say "WTF WHY NOT JUST GIVE US VRYKUL???" but now that we know the Drust are a part of Shadowlands they may be saving the reveal for later.

I'll have to dig a little more for that one dev interview, because I thought I had seen that (I thought it might have been the one with Lost Codex from 2018 or maybe even 2017, but I didn't find the quote).
Mostly people discard the vrykul/drust connection by the time they must be apart from the now Kul Tirans, because the Kul Tirans are either a) not tall enough if there is not much mixing with normal humans going on and b) not small enough if there is a lot of mixing with humans is going on. Either they should still be closer to their original height, if mixing for thousands of years doesn't matter or closer to human height if mixing for thousands of years does indeed matter.
I personally don't think mixing and evolution works that way in wow, it works simply whatever way the devs want it to work, be that through some kind of strange evolution (not a RL actual biologically sound one, but a fantasy kind of evolution ^^) or exposure to magical or divine phenomena.

Considering the Shadowlands have been stated as one of the oldest dimensions in WoW so far, this could just mean that Venthyr became one of the first demon races. The lore is iffy now on whether or not inherent demons actually exist: it's completely possible that all demons have to exist as a previous race that gets corrupted.

It could work just as it works in the Shadowlands, some entities actually form from the dimension and are thus 'born' of the twisting nether and some have been transformed into beings of the Twisting Nether. I mean, we've seen quite some people be turned into actual demons races by just being infused with Fel. If some venthyr maybe opened a portal to the Twisting Nether from the Shadowlands, they could have decided that they like that better (maybe trying to escape the torment they were being handed out in Revendreth?), and over time turned into Nathrezim. If the Shadowlands predate the Titans, all of that could have happened before even the first Titan awoke and they'd have never known that some of those 'demons' used to be something else.

[Nagawithlegs]

I'll have to dig a little more for that one dev interview, because I thought I had seen that (I thought it might have been the one with Lost Codex from 2018 or maybe even 2017, but I didn't find the quote).
Mostly people discard the vrykul/drust connection by the time they must be apart from the now Kul Tirans, because the Kul Tirans are either a) not tall enough if there is not much mixing with normal humans going on and b) not small enough if there is a lot of mixing with humans is going on. Either they should still be closer to their original height, if mixing for thousands of years doesn't matter or closer to human height if mixing for thousands of years does indeed matter.
I personally don't think mixing and evolution works that way in wow, it works simply whatever way the devs want it to work, be that through some kind of strange evolution (not a RL actual biologically sound one, but a fantasy kind of evolution ^^) or exposure to magical or divine phenomena.

I don't disagree that the exact way they shrunk is wonky, but if you compare a Kul Tiran (one of the largest Ally races) to a Vrykul in Stormheim there still is a huge difference, so it's not that far off. I just think that most people are sleeping on the fact that KTs are big FOR A LORE REASON and hope that Blizz outright confirms it, because they get shat on a lot.

[Caerule]

I'm still pretty sure the blacksmith we're going to meet will turn out to be Mal'ganis.

Blizz has been teasing the identity of who it is. But there's no others that I think it could be, if it's someone we know.

[Nagawithlegs]

I'm still pretty sure the blacksmith we're going to meet will turn out to be Mal'ganis.

Blizz has been teasing the identity of who it is. But there's no others that I think it could be, if it's someone we know.

I think the dreadlords stole the armor or commissioned it and brought it back to the twisting nether, as if they were Venthyr they would both know about the armor and be able to take it. It would be odd if Mal'ganis came back to be the smith.

[arandomuser]

the castle raid is called castle nathria, and the dreadlords are the nathrazim... cant be a coincidence, also the garogoyle looking guys look alot like dreadlords.

[Makabreska]

the castle raid is called castle nathria, and the dreadlords are the nathrazim... cant be a coincidence, also the garogoyle looking guys look alot like dreadlords.

Dunno, they seem similar to generic fantasy gargoyles. Also, they may share Dreadlord models, so here is that.

[Dracullus]

Btw, I hope that gargoyle is: 1)landmark for raid that will be visible from whole zone, 2)actual boss that comes to life during raid.

[Makabreska]

Raid has 10 bosses, pretty much guaranteed one of them is a garg.

[jzhbee]

That's true.



I mean, Shadowlands is Azeroth's afterlife, would be weird if galactic demons went there.

Theyve specifically said that Shadowlands is not just Azeroths afterlife. Thats why Draka and other non Azerothian beings were mentioned specifically.

[Hitei]

Raid has 10 bosses, pretty much guaranteed one of them is a garg.

Btw, I hope that gargoyle is: 1)landmark for raid that will be visible from whole zone, 2)actual boss that comes to life during raid.

They implied it was during the presentation, and the final boss is at that location on the raid map.