9.0 General Discussion

[formerShandalay]

You're literally just arguing the semantics of shadowlands referring to the specific 5 we visit & the concept of the shadowlands in general. Shadowlands = Our Shadowlands. Sylvanas is powerful but she can't destroy an entire plane of existence, nor does she want to. Just the Arbiter's jurisdiction .

No, because even in those 5 realms we run into people from other worlds, not just Azeroth.

[LemonDemonGirl]

And I don't know what's going on with Bwonsamdi but it's very confusing. I don't think the Devs themselves have sorted it out. Vol'jin wants to replace Mueh'zala with Bwonsamdi, but also Bwonsamdi says he works for Mueh'zala? And Sylvanas sent Nathanos to kill Bwonsamdi? I got no explainations for any of that

It looks like to me that Mueh'Zala is invading Bwonsamdi's realm and he's very pissed off about it.

Vol'jin says that he recognized Mueh'Zala's voice as the one who whispered to him to make Sylvanas Warchief. Mueh'Zala also works for the Jailer (I think?) too.

I don't know who Bwonsamdi's boss really is,
but judging by what he says to the Winter Queen, I'd say she's his boss. I wish it were someone else though. He just seems like a pet on a leash because he's working under someone. Maybe he'll be free from having to work for someone in a future patch, but for now he's not

[FlubberPuddy]

An example would be like Kerrigan, but I rather Sylvanas not become the savior of everything as that would be extremely lame & honestly that is prbly what will be happening.

I don't know anything about SC but unless they have the same writers writing the stories between games then I don't really think that holds up.

The company has changed a lot since then. And it is not an example that reinforces Sylvanas is good for doing the things she did.

Also:

"Kerrigan is frequently featured in lists of both the top computer gaming enemies and top female characters; a survey by GameSpot in 2010 declared her to be the greatest gaming villain, and Complex ranked her as the most evil woman in gaming in 2012."

Again, a lot of Sylvanas fans that are simping are trying to make her out to be a hero of sort. Don't think the parallels between her and Kerrigan suffice unless you paint things in a broad brush.

By saying stuff like "you are all nothing!" and "this world is a prison" (huge red flag btw) the writers are ensuring that players are justified in being against her. They want everyone on Azeroth to be against her. The Sylvanas loyalist questline not continuing is further evidence of it.

What did we do to another character who wanted to originate the world because they considered it lost? We killed them in a raid.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It looks like to me that Mueh'Zala is invading Bwonsamdi's realm and he's very pissed off about it.

Vol'jin says that he recognized Mueh'Zala's voice as the one who whispered to him to make Sylvanas Warchief. Mueh'Zala also works for the Jailer (I think?) too.

I don't know who Bwonsamdi's boss really is,
but judging by what he says to the Winter Queen, I'd say she's his boss. I wish it were someone else though. He just seems like a pet on a leash because he's working under someone. Maybe he'll be free from having to work for someone in a future patch, but for now he's not

Well he'd probably be doing his own thing if that certain Undead witch didn't screw things up.

[Ersula]

The Arbiter's jurisdiction is the entirety of the Shadowlands

Citation needed. Everything I know about this game's lore is there is no single entity in charge of an entire plane of existence. What infathomable power put her in this position?

[formerShandalay]

It looks like to me that Mueh'Zala is invading Bwonsamdi's realm and he's very pissed off about it.

Vol'jin says that he recognized Mueh'Zala's voice as the one who whispered to him to make Sylvanas Warchief. Mueh'Zala also works for the Jailer (I think?) too.

I don't know who Bwonsamdi's boss really is,
but judging by what he says to the Winter Queen, I'd say she's his boss. I wish it were someone else though. He just seems like a pet on a leash because he's working under someone. Maybe he'll be free from having to work for someone in a future patch, but for now he's not

From the dialogue lines I got the impression she's not, although it's too early to really tell but if that line: "I will take these three spirits into our care. And you will find your way out of my land, Bwonsamdi." is the Winter Queen, after Bwonsamdi tells her that he found out that Mueh'zala is taking her Loa away ("Hey dere Winter Queen! Ol' Bwonsamdi can be explainin'... see, I be findin' out dat Mueh'zala be takin' ya loa away."), I think he may belong somewhere else and simply landed in Ardenweald by accident. And is now helping with setting things straight, so he can get out. Or something like that.

[Ersula]

No, because even in those 5 realms we run into people from other worlds, not just Azeroth.

That Kyrian dialog is talking about how Lightsworn Kyrians have no memories. But also from what's shown in Bastion, some Kyrians are created when souls reach the shadowlands, but some are created new in Bastion, like a native race. For example, the Venthyr & Stoneborn are native to the shadowlands, not undead souls.

[therumblings]

Citation needed. Everything I know about this game's lore is there is no single entity in charge of an entire plane of existence. What infathomable power put her in this position?

You ignored the rest of my post, but here is the source on that:

"The Arbiter is an ancient, mysterious being who dwells in the center of the city of Oribos and judges mortal souls that enter the Shadowlands. Her existence predates all memory—even older than the titans, according to some accounts. When a soul is brought before the Arbiter, all of its contents—deeds, misdeeds, thoughts, accomplishments, and failures—are instantly laid bare, absorbed, and understood by her. The Arbiter then sends the soul off to one of the infinite realms of the Shadowlands, determined by the soul's character."

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23187291

[Monkaliciouz]

Citation needed. Everything I know about this game's lore is there is no single entity in charge of an entire plane of existence. What infathomable power put her in this position?

The Arbiter is an ancient, mysterious being who dwells in the center of the city of Oribos and judges mortal souls that enter the Shadowlands. Her existence predates all memory—even older than the titans, according to some accounts. When a soul is brought before the Arbiter, all of its contents—deeds, misdeeds, thoughts, accomplishments, and failures—are instantly laid bare, absorbed, and understood by her. The Arbiter then sends the soul off to one of the infinite realms of the Shadowlands, determined by the soul's character.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23187291

[therumblings]

That Kyrian dialog is talking about how Lightsworn Kyrians have no memories. But also from what's shown in Bastion, some Kyrians are created when souls reach the shadowlands, but some are created new in Bastion, like a native race. For example, the Venthyr & Stoneborn are native to the shadowlands, not undead souls.

This is true, it seems Kyrians are the only Shadowlands creatures that didn't just exist in the Shadowlands since the beginning of time (some of them probably did), they were created into service from mortals.

[Makorus]

Citation needed. Everything I know about this game's lore is there is no single entity in charge of an entire plane of existence. What infathomable power put her in this position?

Ion stating that the Shadowlands is the afterlife for the entire Warcraft Universe.

In the Whats Next Panel, it was stated that the Arbiter has ALWAYS sorted the souls of EVERY soul. Its also been stated that she predates Titans

[Cosmic Janitor]

No, because even in those 5 realms we run into people from other worlds, not just Azeroth.

Exactly, we literally have NPCs in alpha that ask us what world we come from. It's even one of the very first ones.

[Hugnomo]

So which 4 entities do you think Bonswamdi is talking about rebirthing? We know one of them is Vol'jin.
But the others? Shadra, Hireek and Rezan? What about Ysera?
Also, I'm very curious on how and what type of Loa Vol'jin will become. Bonswamdi is the only Loa that looks like a Troll. (I guess Zanza as well?) Makes me brainstorm a bit on Bonswamdi's origins. Like was he a living troll like Vol'jin was? Could he have been the first troll to ever die? lmao I know it's silly speculation, but I'm really curious. I also really want to know what theme Vol'jin will have as a Loa, what he will be a patron of (maybe kings and queens if rezan isn't rezzed), but what will that look like? very excited.

[vertigo12]

Except it's bad all-over. Ardenweald souls don't get to stay there: They get recycled. Your only choices are "Defend the Shadowlands" "Build stuff to defend the Shadowlands" "Punish souls" "Get recycled" or "The Maw". And I don't know what's going on with Bwonsamdi but it's very confusing. I don't think the Devs themselves have sorted it out. Vol'jin wants to replace Mueh'zala with Bwonsamdi, but also Bwonsamdi says he works for Mueh'zala? And Sylvanas sent Nathanos to kill Bwonsamdi? I got no explainations for any of that


In Bastion you see this conflict is new, & the Lightsworn & Forsworn used to get along... And then you might notice Sylvanas has both light & dark style Valkyr...

Twin Valkyrs of Argent Tournament.

[therumblings]

What infathomable power put her in this position?

Well If you keep going up the chain of "someone putting someone in power", perhaps the Arbiter is the highest in the tier list? Maybe the Arbiter is Warcraft's closest thing to a monotheistic God?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Well If you keep going up the chain of "someone putting someone in power", perhaps the Arbiter is the highest in the tier list? Maybe the Arbiter is Warcraft's closest thing to a monotheistic God?

He wants to try and find "Ok who's the idiot that put the arbiter in charge cause he has to be bad to fit my crazy headcanon sylvanas is an innocent girl who did nuttin wong."


SOrry mods but...its getting absurd.

[Ersula]

Clearly some people like the Arbiter's afterlife dichotomy. I don't. I'd rather if Sylvanas tears it all down. I think most players are going to fall into these two categories, which makes Sylvanas an interesting character. Too valuable to dispose of. For the same reason they don't just kill off Loki in those MCU movies. That's why I don't think (hope) she won't be a raid boss. As raid bosses are characters who are universally reviled. (For example, I think Garrosh had more stans than Blizzard expected.)

[LemonDemonGirl]

So which 4 entities do you think Bonswamdi is talking
about rebirthing? We know one of them is Vol'jin.
But the others? Shadra, Hireek and Rezan? What about Ysera?
Also, I'm very curious on how and what type of Loa Vol'jin will become. Bonswamdi is the only Loa that looks like a Troll. (I guess Zanza as well?) Makes me brainstorm a bit on Bonswamdi's origins. Like was he a living troll like Vol'jin was? Could he have been the first troll to ever die? lmao I know it's silly speculation, but I'm really curious. I also really want to know what theme Vol'jin will have as a Loa, what he will be a patron of (maybe kings and queens if rezan isn't rezzed), but what will that look like? very excited.

I like to think of Bwonsamdi as a mortal troll who died, like you said. Makes the most sense on why he looks/acts/talks in a Jamaican accent like he does.


Maybe Vol'jin will become the new Loa of Kings, or hunting maybe?

I might draw what I'd like his Loa form to look like c:

[Cosmic Janitor]

So which 4 entities do you think Bonswamdi is talking about rebirthing? We know one of them is Vol'jin.
But the others? Shadra, Hireek and Rezan? What about Ysera?
Also, I'm very curious on how and what type of Loa Vol'jin will become. Bonswamdi is the only Loa that looks like a Troll. (I guess Zanza as well?) Makes me brainstorm a bit on Bonswamdi's origins. Like was he a living troll like Vol'jin was? Could he have been the first troll to ever die? lmao I know it's silly speculation, but I'm really curious. I also really want to know what theme Vol'jin will have as a Loa, what he will be a patron of (maybe kings and queens if rezan isn't rezzed), but what will that look like? very excited.

Why would he care about Ysera? It has been shown that Dragonflights have their own succession rituals, despite having never ever used it before cataclysm. If her power was needed then it would make sense for there to a way that enables one of her offspring to take over. Edit: Not to mention that the power of the aspects is spent anyway.

[Makorus]

Clearly some people like the Arbiter's afterlife dichotomy. I don't. I'd rather if Sylvanas tears it all down. I think most players are going to fall into these two categories, which makes Sylvanas an interesting character. Too valuable to dispose of. For the same reason they don't just kill off Loki in those MCU movies. That's why I don't think (hope) she won't be a raid boss. As raid bosses are characters who are universally reviled. (For example, I think Garrosh had more stans than Blizzard expected.)

Loki never genocided an entire race of people.

People should just let villains be villains.

Arbiters afterlife dichotomy is literally based on their past actions judged in an objective manner. The Arbiters knows every thought, every action, every thing about a soul she judges.

She is, objectively, a good person, unless Blizzard tries to pull a stupid plot twist.