9.0 General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

Daily reminder that Conduits are weaker talents/pvp talents and those arent weekly locked so there is no reason to introduce weekly lockout for conduits from begin with

>Introduce the system for literally no reason
>People call it out
>Introduce the system to fix the previous system while complicating it

And you are defending it, mr white knight #20544. Think about it and shame on you.

It is an experiment, one conducted by Blizzard ot see if htey can actually manage to reintroduce RPG elements that the players claim to want without having everyone whine and complain.

Being able to choose whatever is nice and all on a surface level, but with it comes the ugly truth of swapping builds for every occassion instead of either diversifying or risking it on a specific build.

Convenience is in many ways antithetical to a fully realized RPG world. And in the case of WoW the amount of convenience has clearly gone too far, which looks good when all you want to do is go straight to your raid, but less so when you want to immerse yourself in a living breathing world of adventure.

[Eurhetemec]

Daily reminder that Conduits are weaker talents/pvp talents and those arent weekly locked so there is no reason to introduce weekly lockout for conduits from begin with

>Introduce the system for literally no reason
>People call it out
>Introduce the system to fix the previous system while complicating it

And you are defending it, mr white knight #20544. Think about it and shame on you.

Buddy, you know calling someone a White Knight is basically admitting you have no rational argument and are just going to insult people, right?

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IIRC, it's 12h now, with the vast majority lasting 24h. I.e. they actually lowered the refresh rate further.

Yeah, sorry I did mean 6hr as a minimum, not a maximum. However I didn't realize so many of them were 24hr (which I see you are right on!). Do you know when they made that change? When I was last actually doing a lot of WQs and so on, the vast majority were on 12 hour timers. It seems like 24hr timers are indeed excessive for stuff that isn't related to more organised content.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

That's just not true.

There's no sane rationale for updating WQs every hour that's been expressed so far. Maybe there's one out there, but claiming people already log in every hour is bananas. No-lifers are like 2%-0.5% of WoW's population, even at endgame.

I know people want to think Blizzard are just incompetent idiots, but the reality is, they aren't, and there's a good reason WQs and most events last 6 hours, rather than refreshing constantly - it avoids disruption to other activities, and stops people constantly having to monitor stuff. You seem to be mad that you can't just do WQs 24/7 and I kinda sympathize, but at the same time, it's designed that way for a reason, and for most people, because able to clear out their WQs is generally regarded as a good thing.

You could have a game where you had WQ-type events refreshing every hour, but it'd be a very different game to WoW, and you'd probably end up with a design a bit more like GW2 in the end.

And right now world quests die off pretty fast even if the expansion just started. I rather have a better way.

[Eurhetemec]

And right now world quests die off pretty fast even if the expansion just started. I rather have a better way.

What does "die off" mean in this context? Become irrelevant to character progression? Or "run out of WQs to run in a day"?

[huth]

Yeah, sorry I did mean 6hr as a minimum, not a maximum. However I didn't realize so many of them were 24hr (which I see you are right on!). Do you know when they made that change? When I was last actually doing a lot of WQs and so on, the vast majority were on 12 hour timers. It seems like 24hr timers are indeed excessive for stuff that isn't related to more organised content.

IIRC it has been this way for all of BfA. I think Blizzard doesn't want the players to feel like they have to play at a specific time of day to not "miss out".

And right now world quests die off pretty fast even if the expansion just started. I rather have a better way.

And i'm sure you have some idea what a better way for you would be. But Blizzard needs to find something that would be better for everybody, or at least a majority, not just for you.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

And i'm sure you have some idea what a better way for you would be. But Blizzard needs to find something that would be better for everybody, or at least a majority, not just for you.

No not in full detail but I know how world quests are now aint working(As in they don't keep you occupied for too long. Dunno why you're going at me that I only care about myself.

What does "die off" mean in this context? Become irrelevant to character progression? Or "run out of WQs to run in a day"?

Yes cause outside of doing dungeons and or M+(Which I do only on one set day) thats it.

[Nyel]

I don't see the problem here. They're fixing shit people had logistical issues with. Them adding a new, better system to fix a broken system is something that seems bad short-term, but imo can benefit the game in the long run.

The problem here is that Blizzard wouldn't have to solve said problem if they wouldn't force it onto us (without a reason). There's no plausible expalanation why spec-agnostic (e.g. all specs share the same soulbind/conduit layout) conduits cannot be changed without restrictions. It's basically like restricting changing your spec / talents, just because they can.

Is it better than it was before? Yes. Does it solve the overall issue? No. It just takes away game development to come up with a new system that nobody asked for and nobody needs if they finally would listen and understand feedback and concerns. And no, making me 25% less powerful because I cannot change my conduits as I'd like to depending on my spec/role is not adding RPG elements to the game.

[huth]

No not in full detail but I know how world quests are now aint working(As in they don't keep you occupied for too long. Dunno why you're going at me that I only care about myself.

Because i didn't, that's something you're reading into it. Blizzard cannot work of a single persons viewpoint, and what you think "aint working" may very well be fully within their expected design. This has nothing to do with you only caring about yourself.

Also, i said "have some idea". Not a fully worked out design.

The problem here is that Blizzard wouldn't have to solve said problem if they wouldn't force it onto us (without a reason). There's no plausible expalanation why spec-agnostic (e.g. all specs share the same soulbind/conduit layout) conduits cannot be changed without restrictions.

So because you can't think of any reasons, there must not be any? You think Blizzard just introduces systems at random?

And there's perfectly valid explanations you've already been given. You just don't like them.

It just takes away game development to come up with a new system that nobody asked for and nobody needs if they finally would listen and understand feedback and concerns.

They do listen and understand you, SL beta so far has shown that. They just don't always agree.

[TheFirstOnes]

The problem here is that Blizzard wouldn't have to solve said problem if they wouldn't force it onto us (without a reason). There's no plausible expalanation why spec-agnostic (e.g. all specs share the same soulbind/conduit layout) conduits cannot be changed without restrictions. It's basically like restricting changing your spec / talents, just because they can.

Is it better than it was before? Yes. Does it solve the overall issue? No. It just takes away game development to come up with a new system that nobody asked for and nobody needs if they finally would listen and understand feedback and concerns. And no, making me 25% less powerful because I cannot change my conduits as I'd like to depending on my spec/role is not adding RPG elements to the game.

I agree, yes. However, I do believe Blizzard is currently finding ways to at the very least address these issues. But if they aren't, and shit's actually only going to be worse from here, then that'll suck.

[Nyel]

So because you can't think of any reasons, there must not be any? You think Blizzard just introduces systems at random?

And there's perfectly valid explanations you've already been given. You just don't like them.

Tell me one plausible reason why it makes sense to limit the amount of times I can change my Conduits when at the same time I can indefinitely change PvE talents, PvP talents and specilizations.

This limitation hurts everyone that plays more than one spec (e.g. most raiders). We're not talking about changing Covenants here, we're talking about a system that is "Shadowlands talents" in a nutshell. To limit Conduit changes makes as much sense as limiting the amount of times I can change my specilization or talents.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Oh boy...
https://www.wowhead.com/news=318359/...adar-interview

[Sondrelk]

Tell me one plausible reason why it makes sense to limit the amount of times I can change my Conduits when at the same time I can indefinitely change PvE talents, PvP talents and specilizations.

This limitation hurts everyone that plays more than one spec (e.g. most raiders). We're not talking about changing Covenants here, we're talking about a system that is "Shadowlands talents" in a nutshell. To limit Conduit changes makes as much sense as limiting the amount of times I can change my specilization or talents.

Because being able to change talents so easily is a mistake that cannot be rectified in one go or the community would be in an uproar, so Blizzard is taking the slow and steady approach ot introducing fixes to their developmental mistakes way back.

And again, you can stillplay specs just fine, you just won't be able to have several builds for several specs. You have to either have several builds for a single spec or a single build for multiple specs.

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Oh boy...
https://www.wowhead.com/news=318359/...adar-interview

Well this will in no way stir up some activity. Will be interesting to see how this will unfold going forward.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't think they're crossing a line here.... so..meh..... I'll know when things start to look like that one image of marvel comics recently(Forgot when I saw it...pre pandemic)

[huth]

Tell me one plausible reason why it makes sense to limit the amount of times I can change my Conduits when at the same time I can indefinitely change PvE talents, PvP talents and specilizations.

Because Blizzard wants it that way, likely to test how the game behaves under more restrictive systems. It's also just limited to how much you can change the conduits slotted into a soulbind, you can still switch soulbinds unlimited times. Soulbinds and conduits are not talents and do not behave in the same way.

To limit Conduit changes makes as much sense as limiting the amount of times I can change my specilization or talents.

To which i'd argue that the latter is actually to open. You're not making much of an argument as to why the system shouldn't be that way, only that you don't like the setup.

[Nyel]

Because being able to change talents so easily is a mistake that cannot be rectified in one go or the community would be in an uproar, so Blizzard is taking the slow and steady approach ot introducing fixes to their developmental mistakes way back.

And again, you can stillplay specs just fine, you just won't be able to have several builds for several specs. You have to either have several builds for a single spec or a single build for multiple specs.

This is against all of their design philosophy from the last decade, even in BfA you could change Azerite traits without restrictions. I don't say it was right what they did, but they cannot all of a sudden restrict accessability to class specs because [reasons]. Not, when on the other hand, you skill can change talents and specs without limitations. People are already concerned about Covenants in general, restricting their way to play more than one spec is just another huge design misstep.

Choosing between gimping your main spec to be effective at two specs at the same time or being good at your main spec while your second spec suffers greatly is a horrible "design philosophy" that will backfire a lot. It already does (look at the feedback, it's overwhelmingly negative).

The thing is, you cannot play your specs just fine. Conduits are such a huge contributor to your performance in Shadowlands (especially when you're slowly upgrading to higher ranks), they're most likely even more important than the Covenant skills itself.

Blizzard hasn't come up with a plausible reason yet why they restrict this.

[Sondrelk]

This is against all of their design philosophy from the last decade, even in BfA you could change Azerite traits without restrictions. I don't say it was right what they did, but they cannot all of a sudden restrict accessability to class specs because [reasons]. Not, when on the other hand, you skill can change talents and specs without limitations. People are already concerned about Covenants in general, restricting their way to play more than one spec is just another huge design misstep.

Their design philosophy from the last decade was when the game was at its most quick and shallow. In Legion and forward Blizzard has started to reintroduce RPG elements that does go against covenience and having everything at your fingertips at all times, but which came at the cost of depth and generally making the game more important outside just raiding or M+.

Again, limitations are important to add depth. We have seen that when Blizzard just gives all the options to players the result is not a more diverse playerbase, but rather an extremely narrow one where the meta is king.



Also, I think you are vastly overestimating the conduits. Last I checked you could not equip more than one per, meaning that you will always have 3 different conduits which massively limits the limits of experimentation, when you have something like 6-7 conduits pretty much every spec will end up favoring the same ones, for which being able to change one of them per day is perfectly reasonable, more so when you consider that you will most likely only change them massively maybe once or twice per major patch.

[Nyel]

Their design philosophy from the last decade was when the game was at its most quick and shallow. In Legion and forward Blizzard has started to reintroduce RPG elements that does go against covenience and having everything at your fingertips at all times, but which came at the cost of depth and generally making the game more important outside just raiding or M+.

Again, limitations are important to add depth. We have seen that when Blizzard just gives all the options to players the result is not a more diverse playerbase, but rather an extremely narrow one where the meta is king.

Also, I think you are vastly overestimating the conduits. Last I checked you could not equip more than one per, meaning that you will always have 3 different conduits which massively limits the limits of experimentation, when you have something like 6-7 conduits pretty much every spec will end up favoring the same ones, for which being able to change one of them per day is perfectly reasonable, more so when you consider that you will most likely only change them massively maybe once or twice per major patch.

The thing is, I agree with your general notion about WoW's game design. The problem is, this isn't adding any depth.

Restricting Conduits would make sense when each spec had its own layout. Then I'd totally agree with you and say the limitations are justified. But they're not and this is the biggest problem with Soulbinds, Conduits and even Covenants (althoug I get that Covenants are the major feature and I understand why they're not spec-specific).

Each spec has about 4 spec-specific and one Covenant-specific Potency Conduit at the moment. Changing between Conduits within the same spec should be limited. There would still be complains, but it eventually wouldn't force you to decide to play one spec effectively vs more than one spec less effectively (because that's the decision all of this is boiling down to). You already make this decision when it comes to gearing (stat allocation) and Legendaries. Soulbinds and Conduits shouldn't come atop of these limitations as icing on the cake. Nobody wants that, nobody needs that.

[Sondrelk]

The thing is, I agree with your general notion about WoW's game design. The problem is, this isn't adding any depth.

Restricting Conduits would make sense when each spec had its own layout. Then I'd totally agree with you and say the limitations are justified. But they're not and this is the biggest problem with Soulbinds, Conduits and even Covenants (althoug I get that Covenants are the major feature and I understand why they're not spec-specific).

Each spec has about 4 spec-specific and one Covenant-specific Potency Conduit at the moment. Changing between Conduits within the same spec should be limited. There would still be complains, but it eventually wouldn't force you to decide to play one spec effectively vs more than one spec less effectively (because that's the decision all of this is boiling down to).

It is adding depth by focusing on the covenants in general forcing players to pick and choose what they want to be good at instead of being able to change at a whim.
It is not a whole lot of depth, but it is more than there used to be, which is why it is an exciting change, it is a small step towards a much better version of WoW.

And again though, as you just said there are only 4 potency conduits per spec not counting whatever conduits can be used across specs, which is added onto the fact that you have to use 3 different ones at all times. What are the odds you would want to change them that often. You have 3 different soulbinds, so just use one for each.

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And again, playing more tha one spec less effectively should still add up to a net total of being more efficient since different specs should have different strengths. If you play a mage you can swap between Frost and Fire depending on the boss alongside the soubbinds and likely be more efficient overall than if you put all your eggs into one basket.
Again, yes it would be a nerf to playing multiple specs but I think that is an acceptable compromise for a game that has gone so far in the opposite direction for so long.

[Eurhetemec]

IIRC it has been this way for all of BfA. I think Blizzard doesn't want the players to feel like they have to play at a specific time of day to not "miss out".

Fair enough. Well, no change then, I guess it's okay!

Yes cause outside of doing dungeons and or M+(Which I do only on one set day) thats it.

??? lol

This was an either/or question, not a yes/no question siiiiiigh such is life I guess. Maybe you mean "both"?

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Oh boy...
https://www.wowhead.com/news=318359/...adar-interview

Meh, it'll be clumsy but fine.

[Edward Wu]

Oh boy...
https://www.wowhead.com/news=318359/...adar-interview

It's only the beginning. They're starting to work with some very suspect people.

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