9.0 General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

yeah if you have 1 paladin with it then your other paladin can use it

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dont the mounts just change based on spec??

im ok with my monk mount only being 1 because he talks

Some mounts change based on spec, however some classes gets several mounts. Paladins for instance gets 1 mount standard, plus one mount for each spec. Hunters gets one standard, plus 2 unique ones, same with warlock.
However classes like DK and Mage just gets one that changes appearance based on spec.

[Siglius]

But all of their other skills are basically so bad that it compensated for that. Nerfing Windfury just makes an already bottom spec performing even worse. They didn't get anything in exchange for the WF nerfs. Enhancement Shaman is one of the specs that needs most work at the moment (actually all of the Shaman specs do).

Right, so the even if that was true the right thing for Blizzard to do was to leave windfury in an extremely unhealthy state, that sounds like great game design /s. Before this change, Windfury would do up to 50% of your damage, now it's down to roughly 25%. Aside from that, Enhancement has been preforming fairly average damage-wise, it's biggest problems are the lack of strong defensives. I also think that most actual shaman players would agree that the specs actually play really well, especially Enhancement. So I'm not sure exactly where you're getting the "Enhancement Shaman is one of the specs that needs most work at the moment (actually all of the Shaman specs do)." from.

You mean a spec that, after a recent change, had 1 ability doing damage within a toolkit that's performing poorly? A spec that even though got a rework still needs attention?

So, one must ask, why is it being nerfed when not only it could use a dmg tuning upwards but also has mechanic issues in need of attention?

Cause a passive ability doing up to 50% of your damage is fucking stupid and has no place in the game, regardless of current tuning? Even if enhancement needed buffs, that's clearly not how it should be done cause it's frankly degenerate.

[Syegfryed]

Some mounts change based on spec, however some classes gets several mounts. Paladins for instance gets 1 mount standard, plus one mount for each spec. Hunters gets one standard, plus 2 unique ones, same with warlock.
However classes like DK and Mage just gets one that changes appearance based on spec.

which pisses me off deeply, they give the fury warrior, the one about rage and blood the black protodrake, while arms got the red, something who was supposed to be other way around

[Nyel]

Right, so the even if that was true the right thing for Blizzard to do was to leave windfury in an extremely unhealthy state, that sounds like great game design /s. Before this change, Windfury would do up to 50% of your damage, now it's down to roughly 25%. Aside from that, Enhancement has been preforming fairly average damage-wise, it's biggest problems are the lack of strong defensives. I also think that most actual shaman players would agree that the specs actually play really well, especially Enhancement. So I'm not sure exactly where you're getting the "Enhancement Shaman is one of the specs that needs most work at the moment (actually all of the Shaman specs do)." from.

Please read this thread and you'll see what the concerns and problems with (Enhancement) Shaman are: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...es/490695/1417

They incredibly buffed Windfury (and its related talents by that), but left all of the other parts mediocre to really bad - Maelstorm spell usage for example. Then they nerfed Windfury again without compensating for that, they even nerfed Maelstorm spells even more. Enhancement Shaman is performing poorly and yes, the lack of damage CDs, reliance on Mana when it comes to self healing and the excessive focus on Windfury are its major problems. I mean in the beta forum there are even threads that demand another rework for Enhancement because Blizzard failed with their initial rework they did for Shadowlands (Maelstorm is poorly designed and really weak overall). I am not demanding another rework, but Enhancement Shaman right now has four poorly performing Covenant abilities on top of their already sub-par performance. Now even more nerfs while none of the pain points are adressed.

This post from the thread I linked is pretty telling (and that's why its gotten so many likes already):

of ALL the things you could’ve fixed.
of ALL the feedback from the community

NONE taken.
Why do we even have this forum here??

This isn't an exclusive Shaman problem though, this complaint is in every single class thread.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

One of WoW's biggest mysteries have been found.


https://www.wowhead.com/news=318822/...adowlands-beta

[huth]

You mean a spec that, after a recent change, had 1 ability doing damage within a toolkit that's performing poorly? A spec that even though got a rework still needs attention?

So, one must ask, why is it being nerfed when not only it could use a dmg tuning upwards but also has mechanic issues in need of attention?

An ability that, therefore, needs to be nerfed so that the rest of the spec can be brought up to par, yes.

[Siglius]

Please read this thread and you'll see what the concerns and problems with (Enhancement) Shaman are: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...es/490695/1417

They incredibly buffed Windfury (and its related talents by that), but left all of the other parts mediocre to really bad - Maelstorm spell usage for example. Then they nerfed Windfury again without compensating for that, they even nerfed Maelstorm spells even more. Enhancement Shaman is performing poorly and yes, the lack of damage CDs, reliance on Mana when it comes to self healing and the excessive focus on Windfury are its major problems. I mean in the beta forum there are even threads that demand another rework for Enhancement because Blizzard failed with their initial rework they did for Shadowlands (Maelstorm is poorly designed and really weak overall). I am not demanding another rework, but Enhancement Shaman right now has four poorly performing Covenant abilities on top of their already sub-par performance. Now even more nerfs while none of the pain points are adressed.

This post from the thread I linked is pretty telling (and that's why its gotten so many likes already):

of ALL the things you could’ve fixed.
of ALL the feedback from the community

NONE taken.
Why do we even have this forum here??

This isn't an exclusive Shaman problem though, this complaint is in every single class thread.

They didn't buff any windfury related talents. Forceful Winds has been the exact same since Alpha.

Also, I looked through that thread and all I could find on that first page was people praising the SL changes or a few complains about the reduction in Lava Surge procs for Elemental, which is fair but not exactly a big deal.

[Eurhetemec]

Please read this thread and you'll see what the concerns and problems with (Enhancement) Shaman are: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...es/490695/1417

They incredibly buffed Windfury (and its related talents by that), but left all of the other parts mediocre to really bad - Maelstorm spell usage for example. Then they nerfed Windfury again without compensating for that, they even nerfed Maelstorm spells even more. Enhancement Shaman is performing poorly and yes, the lack of damage CDs, reliance on Mana when it comes to self healing and the excessive focus on Windfury are its major problems. I mean in the beta forum there are even threads that demand another rework for Enhancement because Blizzard failed with their initial rework they did for Shadowlands (Maelstorm is poorly designed and really weak overall). I am not demanding another rework, but Enhancement Shaman right now has four poorly performing Covenant abilities on top of their already sub-par performance. Now even more nerfs while none of the pain points are adressed.

This post from the thread I linked is pretty telling (and that's why its gotten so many likes already):

of ALL the things you could’ve fixed.
of ALL the feedback from the community

NONE taken.
Why do we even have this forum here??

This isn't an exclusive Shaman problem though, this complaint is in every single class thread.

If literally everyone has "this complaint", then it's just not plausible that the complaint is valid, sorry mate.

So I suspect that's atomic-bomb level bullshit exaggeration on your part there. Especially given your past history of exaggerating problems, which is so bad even you've admitted to doing it!

Re: Enhance, this looks like the typical Blizzard pattern in Betas to me, which always causes huge amounts of shrieking, weeping, and hair-pulling from the class it happens to, which is:

A) Some ability in the beta is ridiculously OP and a huge proportion of that class' damage/healing.

Many players will act like this is fine, make excuses, etc. Even those who don't tend to suggest small-ish changes.

B) Blizzard massively nerfs that ability and maybe a couple more to boot.

There is wailing and shrieking like everyone's firstborn son just got eaten or something. People claim it's terminal and the class will be fucked for the entire expansion, possibly forever. They also, like you are now, act like it's basically unprecedented and new and horrifying and unique to this expansion/beta.

C) Blizzard then gradually buffs the class back into functionality, after a week or three of watching the class perform post-nerf.

This part is rarely acknowledged or mentioned.

Sometimes it happens to close to the line and a class goes into an expansion sub-par. That sucks, but we're not at that point.

[Siglius]

If literally everyone has "this complaint", then it's just not plausible that the complaint is valid, sorry mate.

So I suspect that's atomic-bomb level bullshit exaggeration on your part there. Especially given your past history of exaggerating problems, which is so bad even you've admitted to doing it!

Re: Enhance, this looks like the typical Blizzard pattern in Betas to me, which always causes huge amounts of shrieking, weeping, and hair-pulling from the class it happens to, which is:

A) Some ability in the beta is ridiculously OP and a huge proportion of that class' damage/healing.

Many players will act like this is fine, make excuses, etc. Even those who don't tend to suggest small-ish changes.

B) Blizzard massively nerfs that ability and maybe a couple more to boot.

There is wailing and shrieking like everyone's firstborn son just got eaten or something. People claim it's terminal and the class will be fucked for the entire expansion, possibly forever. They also, like you are now, act like it's basically unprecedented and new and horrifying and unique to this expansion/beta.

C) Blizzard then gradually buffs the class back into functionality, after a week or three of watching the class perform post-nerf.

This part is rarely acknowledged or mentioned.

Sometimes it happens to close to the line and a class goes into an expansion sub-par. That sucks, but we're not at that point.

You nailed it. Nyel has his reputation for a reason. Enhance isn't even in a bad state currently. It has a solid damage profile, is versatile and currently pumps in M+ even post nerfs. It's mainly being held back by poor defensive options and sub-par single target unless you spec into it at the expense of AoE.

[Nyel]

They didn't buff any windfury related talents. Forceful Winds has been the exact same since Alpha.

By buffing Windfury they indirectly buffed Windfury talents... these correlations are obvious (except for you and Blizzard it seems).

You nailed it. Nyel has his reputation for a reason.

My goodness, it's hilarious that you guys make this again about me when you're running out of arguments and just resort to personal attacks. There are ENTIRE threads filled with this feedback in the beta forum. Are y'all just ignorant or don't you wanna see a pattern here when it comes to feedback -> reacting to feedback? Just read every single class feedback thread in the beta (and no, not just the first and last posts). I know it's a tough task with thousands of replies, but I do follow and read them since they were opened.

[Sondrelk]

By buffing Windfury they indirectly buffed Windfury talents... these correlations are obvious (except for you and Blizzard it seems).



My goodness, it's hilarious that you guys make this again about me when you're running out of arguments and just resort to personal attacks. There are ENTIRE threads filled with this feedback in the beta forum. Are y'all just ignorant or don't you wanna see a pattern here when it comes to feedback -> reacting to feedback? Just read every single class feedback thread in the beta (and no, not just the first and last posts). I know it's a tough task with thousands of replies, but I do follow and read them since they were opened.

Our argument IS that your reputation for overdramatizing minor problems and general sour attitude is making your arguments less credible.

It's the Boy who cried Wolf argument. If someone who is negative to seemingly every change is negative to a change then their burden of proof is necessarily far higher than for those who are positive or even neutral to most changes. This is why many try to claim they are usually positive when arguing something is bad, it strengthens their argument.

[Toybox]

Sod this drama - Are you all ready for the Steam sale in the absence of anything remotely interesting from 9.0*/Blizzard? Crazy to think we'd be doing alt M+0s about now if Shadowlands had come out as expected.

(*leveling changes are great, but done with that now).

[TickTickTick]

Sod this drama - Are you all ready for the Steam sale in the absence of anything remotely interesting from 9.0*/Blizzard? Crazy to think we'd be doing alt M+0s about now if Shadowlands had come out as expected.

(*leveling changes are great, but done with that now).

I'm just waiting for Valhalla lol. Before the delay I was wondering about how am I going to find time for it when it would be a begining of SL, but with SL delayed I'll be able to focus 100% on that. At least one positive.

[Eurhetemec]

Sod this drama - Are you all ready for the Steam sale in the absence of anything remotely interesting from 9.0*/Blizzard? Crazy to think we'd be doing alt M+0s about now if Shadowlands had come out as expected.

(*leveling changes are great, but done with that now).

You'd be on M+0 on like, the third day it was out? Damn son, you fast. I'd be puttering around leveling, even if I'd taken days off. Be a week or two before I was on M0 at least.

Re: Steam sale, I dunno, Microsoft Game Pass has kind of ruined Steam for me in a good way, because I'm paying MS like £3.99/month but getting access to an awful lot of games, including cool indies, that I'd normally buy on Steam as they came out, and like, play for two days. Which is making Steam sales less exciting for sure.

Maybe Horizon Zero Dawn if it's like 50% off, or Paradise Killer? Or "Boring ginger dude goes on a Star Wars adventure" or whatever that one is called, if it's well over 50% off. Man that is one of the very few games where the main character seriously stopped me buying it on release. I still haven't played Disco Elysium, so if that got a decent cut I probably would. Or I could actually fucking play Hades like I keep saying I would. The visual design is amazing and the gameplay is great but it's almost too much.

[Toybox]

You'd be on M+0 on like, the third day it was out? Damn son, you fast. I'd be puttering around leveling, even if I'd taken days off. Be a week or two before I was on M0 at least.

Re: Steam sale, I dunno, Microsoft Game Pass has kind of ruined Steam for me in a good way, because I'm paying MS like £3.99/month but getting access to an awful lot of games, including cool indies, that I'd normally buy on Steam as they came out, and like, play for two days. Which is making Steam sales less exciting for sure.

Maybe Horizon Zero Dawn if it's like 50% off, or Paradise Killer? Or "Boring ginger dude goes on a Star Wars adventure" or whatever that one is called, if it's well over 50% off. Man that is one of the very few games where the main character seriously stopped me buying it on release. I still haven't played Disco Elysium, so if that got a decent cut I probably would. Or I could actually fucking play Hades like I keep saying I would. The visual design is amazing and the gameplay is great but it's almost too much.

The joys of working home. If we can sneak in day 0 M+0s on EU servers then I'm sure we will Early expansion hype & playing with your mates is something that no other game manages to nail as well as WoW does, & I'm really, really looking forward to it.

Gamepass is crazy for sure, but a lot of genres I enjoy aren't really focuses of Gamepass, so I'm stuck with Steam still. Ah well Fingers crossed for some decent discounts, otherwise I'm stuck playing games I bought in previous sales... Oh no >.>

[Nyel]

Our argument IS that your reputation for overdramatizing minor problems and general sour attitude is making your arguments less credible.

It's the Boy who cried Wolf argument. If someone who is negative to seemingly every change is negative to a change then their burden of proof is necessarily far higher than for those who are positive or even neutral to most changes. This is why many try to claim they are usually positive when arguing something is bad, it strengthens their argument.

What the [...] has my reputation to do with bringing up pain points from beta. Again, just check the beta forums. This is something that people who personally attack me here constantly (I never attack someone on a direct personal basis or am namecalling anyone, it's just me who gets namecalled all the time) obviously don't do - how do I know that? Because they always attribute negative feedback to me because of my reputation. They do that permanently, although beta testers are bringing up the exact issues again and again and again. In the end it's just me and my negativity and my bad reputation and whatsoever. And no, neither are the problems minor nor overdramatized. Proof? Beta forums. Do y'all want me to compile a list with sources on feedback or what? If you don't believe me, just read the beta forums and class threads on a daily basis and you see how underwhelmed the testers are by the whole class design in general.

I don't have to sugarcoat bad changes just to appease a specific sort of posters here. Even if my posts are critical and tend to be negative when it comes to Blizzard and their poor reaction (I know someone will call me out on using the word "poor" in this context) to tester feedback, I don't resort to personal attacks or namecalling, because it's unnecessary.

[Dracullus]

Sod this drama - Are you all ready for the Steam sale in the absence of anything remotely interesting from 9.0*/Blizzard? Crazy to think we'd be doing alt M+0s about now if Shadowlands had come out as expected.

(*leveling changes are great, but done with that now).

Last few years I used Steam sale only to buy and try all Total War DLC from last year. And this time I have also Cyberpunk to buy, I don't pre-order games beside WoW expacs.

In WoW beside some collection hunting I have ton of alts that could be geared to 100 through event, but I don't know if I'll have patient for that, depend how fast it will be.

[Eurhetemec]

What the f* has MY reputation to do with bringing up pain points from beta. Again, just check the beta forums. This is something that people who personally attack me here constantly (I never attack someone on a direct personal basis or am namecalling anyone, it's just me who gets namecalled all the time) obviously don't do - how do I know that? Because they always attribute negative feedback to me because of my reputation. They do that permanently, although beta testers are bringing up the exact issues again and again and again.

I don't have to sugarcoat bad changes just to appease a specific sort of posters here.

You're not sugar-coating them, you're shit-coating them.

That's the problem. You've even admitted to it (in that post where you claimed "4/4" covenants were trash for more than half the classes in WoW).

You say "OMG THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM!!!! EVERYONE IS SO UPSET!", then you link a thread, and it's like, most of the people in it are fine with it, and literally no-one is freaking out like you are.

Or you say "OMG YOUTUBERS SAY THIS IS A DISASTER THAT MAKES BFA LOOK GOOD AND NOTHING IS EVER FIXED!!!!" and then I watch the same Youtubers, and they're like "Yeah SL has some issues but it's looking much better than BfA!".

It's called "crying wolf" dude. Or "chicken little" or whatever. Yeah, maybe some of the stuff you're complaining about is a genuine problem. But we can't tell, because you're treating pretty minor and normal balance bumpiness from a beta as if it were game-endingly catastrophic. No-one is "personally attacking" you here. People are criticizing your habit of making posts full of wild exaggerations and hyperbole. They're trying to help you.

[whoisqnx]

You're not sugar-coating them, you're shit-coating them.

That's the problem. You've even admitted to it (in that post where you claimed "4/4" covenants were trash for more than half the classes in WoW).

You say "OMG THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM!!!! EVERYONE IS SO UPSET!", then you link a thread, and it's like, most of the people in it are fine with it, and literally no-one is freaking out like you are.

Or you say "OMG YOUTUBERS SAY THIS IS A DISASTER THAT MAKES BFA LOOK GOOD AND NOTHING IS EVER FIXED!!!!" and then I watch the same Youtubers, and they're like "Yeah SL has some issues but it's looking much better than BfA!".

It's called "crying wolf" dude. Or "chicken little" or whatever. Yeah, maybe some of the stuff you're complaining about is a genuine problem. But we can't tell, because you're treating pretty minor and normal balance bumpiness from a beta as if it were game-endingly catastrophic. No-one is "personally attacking" you here. People are criticizing your habit of making posts full of wild exaggerations and hyperbole. They're trying to help you.

and the sad part is that so many people are becoming like this, its so boring after a point.

[Eurhetemec]

and the sad part is that so many people are becoming like this, its so boring after a point.

I think it's what inevitably happens as a beta continues for a long time. A lot of people just can't process that a beta is a beta, and that massive balances changes will happen, that stuff will come in strong, then get nerfed into the floor. That bugs will persist for a long time (and yeah, a few will even go live). Confirmation bias is particularly bad with bugs, too. People forget bugs INSTANTLY when they fixed in betas, so if you have 1000 bugs, and cut it down to 50, people who complain will forget there ever were 1000 bugs, and just really loudly and angrily complain about the remaining 50 and how Blizzard HASNT FIXED ANYTHING OMG. And even if you fix 48 of those before the game goes live, the same exact level of anger will persist over the two you didn't, as if you'd done nothing.

We saw a fairly similar pattern with most previous expansions where I was around during the beta. The longer it goes on, the more some people get upset, because the class they liked got nerfed, or the mechanic they thought was cool even though it was broken got removed, or that one bug they noticed six weeks ago is STILL THERE OMG.

And it's unclear why they think it's helpful to communicate this stuff too - it's not like this is the Blizzard forum, or like we can do anything about it. But there seems to be an underlying idea that if enough people are told here, at this rando forum full of WoW weirdos (myself included), it'll fix.