9.0 General Discussion

[huth]

Why are you so focused on Anduin? While he shielded us while we escaped via the Waystone, the thing that even made the Jailor show up was the Adventurer activating the Waystone.

It's also ignoring entirely what happened in that scene. The Jailer easily crushed Anduin's Light dome after we left. He simply wasn't trying before. He wanted to see if the PC could actually leave the Maw.

It's kinda ridiculous that nobody seems to pick up on this.

[AngerFork]

I could see Ve'nari being allied with the Jailer, it would certainly explain why she has such a seemingly easy tiem avoiding his minions, as well as why the other brokers who are clearly against the Jailer are so distrustful of her.

I tend to oscillate between whether Venari is allied with the Jailer or the Arbiter (or possibly even the Arbiter herself). At this point, I think both are very much likely, but it comes down to motivations and what the Jailer's actual plan is.

Pieces that lend credence to Arbiter theory:
- Giving us transport networks and reasons to see more of the Maw (Jailer could do most soul research locally, Arbiter may want us to know all of the Maw)
- Problems shown (Venari shows us issues happening within the Maw and how to work with them. The Jailer would want us to see the problems in all realms)
- Methodology (The Jailer seems to be very direct, very intentional. Venari is a lot more subtle, more of a show rather than tell being)

Pieces that lend credence to the Jailer theory:
- Venari's refuge never being disturbed (Why is the waystone unprotected at this point and why is Venari safe right next to it?)
- Powers sold (Lots of control for Torghast/Maw problems, not to mention a memory of the Jailer's "Third Eye")

Pieces I could see going either way:
- Stygia collecting (Jailer might want our essence on his power to figure out how we can escape, Arbiter might need Stygia herself to escape)
- Knowledge of how the Eye of the Jailer works (Jailer would know this inherently, Arbiter may have some sort of link to Jailer which gives that knowledge)
- The Soul Catcher (Jailer might be studying how the souls leave with us to learn how to remove them, Arbiter may actually care about the tormented souls)
- Knowledge of where specific souls are (How would a broker know what specific missing Baron we want?)
- Distrust of the Runecarver (If he is the Primus, Jailer wouldn't want us to trust him. Arbiter may not fully understand what all is in Torghast)
- Brokers looking for Venari in Oribos (No matter who Venari is working with, the other side would want it shut down)

[draugril]

My money is her showing up in the final raid with a small lore blurb on why we're fighting her that doesn't influence the narrative in any way.

[huth]

Well, i don't know about Ve'nari in particular... but i don't think the Brokers have ever been mortal.

[Sondrelk]

My money is her showing up in the final raid with a small lore blurb on why we're fighting her that doesn't influence the narrative in any way.

Yeah that sounds the most likely, either that or in 9.2 or something. It has to be after the Maw is no longer massively relevant, similar to how players are not really supposed to bat an eye that Nathanos is still barking orders at you in Zuldazar even after Sylvanas has been outed killing Saurfang.

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Why are you so focused on Anduin? While he shielded us while we escaped via the Waystone, the thing that even made the Jailor show up was the Adventurer activating the Waystone.

That's what the Jailor wants, to get out of the Maw - while he broke his physical chains that were seen in promo art and the "TV spot" trailer, something likely still ties him to the Maw, so he can't get out, unlike the Mawsworn (and I don't think it's as simple as having wings)
Say, for whatever lore reason, he can only leave via the Waystone, but he cannot use it.

He knows he can lure us back using the other prisoners we had to leave behind (not to mention the countless souls unjustly thrown into the Maw) and while Sylvanas is trying to break and/or turn Anduin anyway, the Jailor might piggyback inside Anduin, to get out of the Maw - something the Adventurer might not even realize for a while, until e.g. a 8.2 reveal.

It's stil a case where the Jailer seems ot take an interest in Anduin specifically, and the only thing Anduin really did of note during the time we escaped was channel teh Light, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that Anduin being able to summon the Light in the Maw is somehow special.

Also, what Anduin did or didnt do with the Light is irrelevant really, until someone can point to a different something he did during that cutscene that could realistically be why the Jailer wants to turn him then his bond to the Light is the most likely suspect.

If the Jailer wanted something specific out of the Waystone then surely he would have gotten it already, we have saved half of the people that tried to leave with us and are about to rescue the third, I fail to see why Anduin out of the four is somehow the only one that the Jailer wants to use as a trojan horse or whatever.

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Well, i don't know about Ve'nari in particular... but i don't think the Brokers have ever been mortal.

Their similarity to the custodians in Oribos has to be somehow linked. I find it hard to believe Blizzard designed two sets of supposedly different NPCs that both have essentially the same base appearance of pure anima in a seemingly robotic frame.

[huth]

It's stil a case where the Jailer seems ot take an interest in Anduin specifically, and the only thing Anduin really did of note during the time we escaped was channel teh Light, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that Anduin being able to summon the Light in the Maw is somehow special.

Also, what Anduin did or didnt do with the Light is irrelevant really, until someone can point to a different something he did during that cutscene that could realistically be why the Jailer wants to turn him then his bond to the Light is the most likely suspect.

Why are you assuming it is about Anduin at all? He should already know about Anduin's capabilities. The PC and their ability to interact with the stone are new and should be of interest to him.

What Anduin did with the Light is indeed irrelevant... because the scene wasn't about Anduin and the Jailer was shown to casually wave his protection away once the actual matter of interest was resolved.

[Sondrelk]

Why are you assuming it is about Anduin at all? He should already know about Anduin's capabilities. The PC and their ability to interact with the stone are new and should be of interest to him.

What Anduin did with the Light is indeed irrelevant... because the scene wasn't about Anduin and the Jailer was shown to casually wave his protection away once the actual matter of interest was resolved.

Jailer notices we are about to manage to leave using the waystone.
Anduin uses the light.
We escape alone.
Jailer is intrigued.
Jailer captures everyone.
Jailer puts special emphasis on Anduin.
Nothing much happens with the other people we save.

Something is clearly different about Anduin, and given the way the scene was framed I cannot imagine anything other than the Jailer is intrigued by his ability to use the light. He doesnt really put extra seccurity around the waystone unless we assume the theory of Ve'nari working with the Jailer to be correct, and nothing much has happened when we saved the other important prisoners.

I don't doubt that "mere mortals" using the waystone isnt why he came over, but he clearly saw something about Anduin that warranted special attention, and nothing about the scene that he does sticks out except using the Light, which makes me assume it is something exceptional.

[rhorle]

What Anduin did with the Light is indeed irrelevant... because the scene wasn't about Anduin and the Jailer was shown to casually wave his protection away once the actual matter of interest was resolved.

But then it couldn't be about the player escaping either. Because the Jailer could have just casually waved his hand to stop us. He was more interested in the power Anduin showed then stopping the player character from escaping the maw. We also know from Revendreth that experiments with the Light was something that the Jailer, or at least his supporters, was interested in.

The Anduin Sylvanas cinematic also seems to indicate that Anduin is of greater importance compared to the others captured.

[Nathanyel]

Jailer puts special emphasis on Anduin.

But that was already the case before we came rampaging through the Maw. Something piqued his interest, and that was likely us interacting with the Waystone.

Obviously he had plans for Anduin and the others anyway, unless Sylvanas either convinced or tricked him into torturing them for pure pettiness, but that probably only means turning them to his cause, similar to how he turned Devos and those two Necrolord Margraves (although probably less supernaturally in the latter case, they just lust for power)
I don't think it's Anduin (or even the others) in particular, with every soul falling into the Maw, there's bound to be some strong Light users, or other powerful beings. But we know that Zovaal wants Azeroth's World Soul, so their connection to it might be relevant. But not their individual powers.

[huth]

I don't doubt that "mere mortals" using the waystone isnt why he came over, but he clearly saw something about Anduin that warranted special attention, and nothing about the scene that he does sticks out except using the Light, which makes me assume it is something exceptional.

Except Anduin already got "special attention" before. There's no change with him. Whatever happened in the cutscene wasn't about Anduin, who probably just gets the attention because he's proving hardier than the other three, or maybe on special request from Sylvanas.

The Light has been shown able to even launch offensives against the Shadowlands. If anything, it's possibly easier for it to get there than to the mortal realm.

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But then it couldn't be about the player escaping either. Because the Jailer could have just casually waved his hand to stop us.

But that's exactly the point. There wouldn't have been any reason to delay it for Anduin. So the only explanation for why he didn't just do it immediately is that he wanted to see what happens with the PC. If he was only interested in Anduin there wouldn't have been any reason to risk letting us get out, that only makes sense if Anduin isn't the primary focus of his interest.

[rhorle]

But that's exactly the point. There wouldn't have been any reason to delay it for Anduin. So the only explanation for why he didn't just do it immediately is that he wanted to see what happens with the PC. If he was only interested in Anduin there wouldn't have been any reason to risk letting us get out, that only makes sense if Anduin isn't the primary focus of his interest.

There is no reason to risk us getting out either way. It doesn't make sense to let us escape if we are the primary focus of his interest. Everything points to Anduin being a major focus. You can deny it all you want but the cinematic paints a different picture.

[huth]

There is no reason to risk us getting out either way. It doesn't make sense to let us escape if we are the primary focus of his interest. Everything points to Anduin being a major focus. You can deny it all you want but the cinematic paints a different picture.

Except, you know, if he wants to know if we really can. Letting us go is a necessary part of that.

[rhorle]

Except, you know, if he wants to know if we really can. Letting us go is a necessary part of that.

Why would he care to know if we can get out? It clearly hasn't been relevant to his plans since everything focuses on the importance of Anduin. And none of his actual plans revolves around us being free to leave the maw. Everything points to it not being against his plans since being a maw walker directly hurts all his plans.

Are you not aware of the cinematic that has a conversation between Anduin and Sylvanas? You don't see to care about any of the story that unfolds and are just focusing on one event.

[huth]

Why would he care to know if we can get out?

Yes, why would the guy stuck in the Maw want to know if there exists somebody who can leave the Maw and is capable of taking others along. I wonder.

And we have no idea how this affects his plans because we have no idea what his plans even are.

Maybe it's time you stop focusing so much on Anduin and start paying a little more attention to what else is going on.

[rhorle]

Yes, why would the guy stuck in the Maw want to know if there exists somebody who can leave the Maw and is capable of taking others along. I wonder.

The waystone wasn't hidden from the Jailer. He also clearly has ways to communicate to those beyond the maw since both Denathrius and Sylvanas could follow his will. It really isn't that important to him. If it was don't you think he would have stopped us so he could control the power we had? Of course we know how letting us escape impairs his plans. Have you not done any of the zone story quests? Have you not followed what we stop with the raid?

Anduin is clearly the important one. Which is why greater focus keeps being given to him with the Jailer and his plans. Again did you miss the cinematic between Sylvanas and Anduin? Stop focusing on one little aspect where the player escapes. Pay more attention to everything else going on in the game.

[huth]

Pay more attention to everything else going on in the game.

Sorry, but i can't hear you over everybody yelling "Maw Walker".

[rhorle]

Sorry, but i can't hear you over everybody yelling "Maw Walker".

So you are focusing on one thing and ignoring everything else. Why is it that you then accused me of doing the very thing you freely admit to?

[Revamp Man]

Why are you so focused on Anduin? While he shielded us while we escaped via the Waystone, the thing that even made the Jailor show up was the Adventurer activating the Waystone.

That's what the Jailor wants, to get out of the Maw - while he broke his physical chains that were seen in promo art and the "TV spot" trailer, something likely still ties him to the Maw, so he can't get out, unlike the Mawsworn (and I don't think it's as simple as having wings)
Say, for whatever lore reason, he can only leave via the Waystone, but he cannot use it.

He knows he can lure us back using the other prisoners we had to leave behind (not to mention the countless souls unjustly thrown into the Maw) and while Sylvanas is trying to break and/or turn Anduin anyway, the Jailor might piggyback inside Anduin, to get out of the Maw - something the Adventurer might not even realize for a while, until e.g. a 8.2 reveal.

anduin cant leave through the waystone either

the reason anduin is mentioned is because the jailer has been looking for something to do with the power of the light which is why denathrius did whatever caused the retaliation of the light and was torturing a naaru

now this can also mean that he did something with arthas and had engineered the whole "arthas finds frostmourne and the helm becoming the lich king" but i find it more likely he was thinking a leader from azeroth had the power he sought after and found it in anduin which is why he isnt ordering attacks at the moment and instead hes gathering his forces.

8.1 is going to have us rescue him

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It's also ignoring entirely what happened in that scene. The Jailer easily crushed Anduin's Light dome after we left. He simply wasn't trying before. He wanted to see if the PC could actually leave the Maw.

It's kinda ridiculous that nobody seems to pick up on this.

"i have exactly what i seek"
and sylvanas "we are going to use you as a weapon" to anduin
the fact denathrius did something so bad to the light that they attacked and then denathrius captured a naaru

the jailer has a plan for anduin due to his connection to the light

[ldev]

Covenants are a big mistake. Abilities should be separate.

I play Necrolord Paladin. Yes, the one covenant who for Ret has 3.5% pick rate, for Holy 1.1%, for Prot 2.6%. Because I love Necrolords - best titles, best mounts, best idea behind covenant, best unique covenant mechanic, best plate armor. In my sanctum - there's DKs, some warlocks/priests/shamans. Saw two mages and one hunter. And one paladin - me.

And I suffer daily. For Ret ability is so so - every thirty seconds increase Templar's Verdict damage by like 30%. HUGE WOW compared to Kyrian or Venthyr abilities /s And I don't wanna play Prot or Holy, because I see Kyrians in my pugs or guild and god fucking dammit, worlds apart.

Where the fuck are those idiots who said "pick what covenant you enjoy, blizz will tune the numbers", when the only problem is ABILITY DESIGN, not numbers. Are these loud mouthed imbeciles playing class or spec/covenant combo that's <5% in popularity? Are any of those are playing Necrolord Demon Hunter? PM me, I will give you my address so that you can come to my house and I will punch you in the face repeatedly.

[huth]

So you are focusing on one thing and ignoring everything else. Why is it that you then accused me of doing the very thing you freely admit to?

No, not me. The story is. The story of the Shadowlands is basically "Maw Walker does this, Maw Walker does that". Anduin is so far nothing more than a McGuffin.

"i have exactly what i seek"

And the discussion here is whether that's about Anduin or the fact that it is indeed possible to successfully use the waystone.

and sylvanas "we are going to use you as a weapon" to anduin

Which isn't necessarily linked to the other part and may have been the plan ever since they captured him.

the fact denathrius did something so bad to the light that they attacked and then denathrius captured a naaru

the jailer has a plan for anduin due to his connection to the light

Yes, Denathrius/the Venthyr did that. We don't know when and we don't know if there's any connection to the Jailer or if that was just something he did for himself.

The other part is just your speculation. We don't know how Anduin figures into Zovaal's plans, only that he does. But so do umptillions of random souls.