Necromancer Fan Concept

[Rendark]

Unless you can summon 20+ skeletons and just stand there as they dps for you it's not a Necromancer.

[Ielenia]

It is a cool concept you made, mate. It really is.

But the truth is... Necromancer becomes a redundant class as death knights and warlocks already exist ingame.

Arthas is the most famous guy that raised the dead in warcraft history. And because of this Blizzard really invested on death knights having the "necromancer" role of raising undead and using plagues and necromantic abilities. Also warlocks have the evil robe guy with a staff role. For me, the two clearly steal the spotlight that the necromancers require to be unique and diversify the current classes.

That is how i see necromancers in wow...

Thanks, man. I know about the contention between the two concepts (necro & DK) but I still think both can coexist, without even removing abilities from the existing classes.

Both concepts exist in the game. Related, but separate from each other. Necromancers are a thing that exist in WoW, and the Cult of the Damned is a necromancer group, not a death knight group, for example.

[Directionalk9]

I like this, kudos mate.

[Teriz]

The reasoning doesn't matter. What matters is that the class idea should be expanded to make it interesting. And you haven't given a single reason why the D3 necromancer shouldn't be used as inspiration. Why is Blizzard allowed to look for inspirations from other games but their own other games?

I gave the reason. You're just ignoring it.

So it is the embodiment of the Burning Legion too? Since one of the heroes of the Scourge faction in WC3 is a demon. Blizzard better axe the warlock and demon hunter classes, then.

Nope. It is the embodiment of the scourge. The Burning Legion and the Scourge aren't the same thing.

And I'll repeat the question I posted earlier that you seem to be avoiding:

I didn't avoid it. I told you what specs would be affected.

[justandulas]

i love it and necro is my dream WoW class; but you are gonna have some UH DK's and Demo Locks complain.

Even though the precedent to gut classes to design better ones has already been set via meta lock to DH...

[Ielenia]

I gave the reason. You're just ignoring it.

Your reason doesn't hold water. All twelve in the game were expanded, for a myriad of reasons. This would be just one more. Especially since we technically can give that exact same reasoning of yours to explain why the priest has a shadow spec: "because the paladin eats up its design space."

My question is why using the D3 necromancer as a source of ideas is a bad thing? On the same topic, why is Blizzard allowed to look into their own games to base new classes only when it suits you, as you like to point at Heroes of the Storm when talking about Tinker?

Nope. It is the embodiment of the scourge. The Burning Legion and the Scourge aren't the same thing.

Then the death knight shouldn't have blood magic since the theme comes from the demons. Not that it matters since the death knight is not the embodiment of the whole Scourge.

I didn't avoid it. I told you what specs would be affected.

<heavy sigh> Let's try this again. I'll give a bit more emphasis to the key words in my question, this time:

Okay, let's try this again: For the sake of argument, what abilities of the death knight and warlock classes would have to be "changed" or "removed", and why would they?

To clarify: which specific abilities in the DK and Warlock repertoire cannot coexist with which ones that I listed in the OP? Why would they have to be changed or removed?

[justandulas]

@ Ielenia, nothing you say will convince him. he's set in his position and no amount of logic or examples will sway him.

If i may give another example outside of Blizz games... ESO just added a necromancer into the game and it didn't hurt their summoner class at all. They also have the EQ necromancer as inspiration. As well as in game necromancers like Kel'thuzad and countless others

[Teriz]

Your reason doesn't hold water. All twelve in the game were expanded, for a myriad of reasons.

Again, expanded to fill classes with multiple specs, not expanded outside of WC in order to avoid overlap with a similar class.

Anyway, I see no point in continuing this discussion. We'll see what happens in November.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Guys, we can have multiple classes with specs based around summoning, I don't know why some seem to think this is impossible. The exact mechanics would need to be a bit different, sure. But I think Ielenia's model does that. Nothing needs to be pruned from DK or Warlock.

[Julian Rayne]

I like it. Would you consider renaming or reworking your Poison spec to "Decay" or something like that? Something invokes crypts and catacombs.

And you ARE wasting your time arguing with someone who has a demonstrated track record of being wrong in predicting what Blizzard is going to do.

[Ielenia]

Again, expanded to fill classes with multiple specs, not expanded outside of WC in order to avoid overlap with a similar class.

The reasoning is irrelevant. All classes had several reasons to be expanded. On top of that, your reasoning there could be applied to the priest class: expanded to avoid overlap with a similar class: the paladin.

We'll see what happens in November.

Whatever happens in November, unless they announce a necromancer class, it'd be irrelevant, since I'm not predicting that this class will come in the next expansion.

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I like it. Would you consider renaming or reworking your Poison spec to "Decay" or something like that? Something invokes crypts and catacombs.

Crypts and Catacombs I think work more for the Bone spec, as those words remind me more of ossuaries than actual decay. As for renaming the poison spec "Decay", it's possible. I mean, I did point out that I dedicate too much time coming up with original names.

And you ARE wasting your time arguing with someone who has a demonstrated track record of being wrong in predicting what Blizzard is going to do.

I know. But arguing with him is what helped me flesh out my necromancer idea, so it's not all a complete waste of time.

[jellmoo]

I feel as though it's missing on something that strikes at the core of what a Necromancer is (at least to me). It has interesting abilities, but it doesn't really tie into the themes of life and death enough. I feel like it needs to have a few things to really hit the Necromancer theme:

- Abilities that make it the "go to" class when facing the undead
- Emphasis on the ability to create undead, which feel limited to one spec
- Less emphasis on Golems. Cool idea, but I feel it works best in Blood
- Magic related to the soul and to the capture of life (not very descriptive. I know, but this is more of a gut feeling)
- More ways of summoning minions that isn't reliant on RNG

I think that it might be a case of the class benefiting from the Demon Hunter style of design with having only two specs. It would give each spec a broader array of tools without having to dilute the core concept.

[Ielenia]

I feel as though it's missing on something that strikes at the core of what a Necromancer is (at least to me). It has interesting abilities, but it doesn't really tie into the themes of life and death enough. I feel like it needs to have a few things to really hit the Necromancer theme:

- Abilities that make it the "go to" class when facing the undead
- Emphasis on the ability to create undead, which feel limited to one spec
- Less emphasis on Golems. Cool idea, but I feel it works best in Blood
- Magic related to the soul and to the capture of life (not very descriptive. I know, but this is more of a gut feeling)
- More ways of summoning minions that isn't reliant on RNG

I think that it might be a case of the class benefiting from the Demon Hunter style of design with having only two specs. It would give each spec a broader array of tools without having to dilute the core concept.

Addressing your points in order:

• I get what you mean, but when I think of a class to "go to" when facing the undead, I think of Light-based classes, like the paladin and priest. I don't think the necromancer should be the class to go "against" the undead.
• The Bone spec can have more abilities to specifically summon more skeletons, I didn't list ALL the abilities, just a few. I was thinking perhaps the necromancer can actively summon skeletons up to a fixed number (let's say, 4 skeletons) and more than that only through the RNG from the other abilities?
• I call it a "bone golem", but it's more akin to something like Marrowgar than an actual golem. Not sure if it helps?
• You're talking about "soul" magic. I honestly thought about it, but couldn't figure out a way around the warlock and how it dabbles in soul magic, with "drain soul", "soul shards","haunt" and other similarly themed abilities.
• I addressed alongside point #2.

[jellmoo]

Addressing your points in order:

• I get what you mean, but when I think of a class to "go to" when facing the undead, I think of Light-based classes, like the paladin and priest. I don't think the necromancer should be the class to go "against" the undead.
• The Bone spec can have more abilities to specifically summon more skeletons, I didn't list ALL the abilities, just a few. I was thinking perhaps the necromancer can actively summon skeletons up to a fixed number (let's say, 4 skeletons) and more than that only through the RNG from the other abilities?
• I call it a "bone golem", but it's more akin to something like Marrowgar than an actual golem. Not sure if it helps?
• You're talking about "soul" magic. I honestly thought about it, but couldn't figure out a way around the warlock and how it dabbles in soul magic, with "drain soul", "soul shards","haunt" and other similarly themed abilities.
• I addressed alongside point #2.

Coolio. It was just stream of consciousness first thought ideas. Point by point:

- I think when you want to destroy undead, absolutely. When you want to control, incapacitate or otherwise take advantage of undead the Necromancer should have a little something in his bag of tricks
- Maybe what's bugging me is that it's very skeleton centric? Should a Necromancer have the ability to summon different types of undead? Does this walk a little too much on the domain of the Warlock?
- I think the fact that all three specs have the use of a "golem" as the unifying theme rather than undead is what's giving me pause
- You're not wrong, yet I feel like it's still a core concept of the Necromancer. Maybe something in the area of utility spells could fill the gap. Like Create Phylactery. The Necromancer creates a vessel that stores his soul, allowing him to return from the dead. The Phylactery is placed on the ground nearby upon creation, and can be destroyed by an enemy before he has the chance to use it. (even with the caveat it's remarkably similar to a souls stone unfortunately)

[Amunrasonther]

Because Necromancers in Warcraft rarely if ever use poison.

As I explained to you in the other thread, in-game and through lore, Necromancers are more likely to use poison and alchemy spells than they do plague spells. You however ignored that post. Here it is again in case you missed it:

My original question to you: Which Necromancers in-game or from past Warcraft games cast plagues?

-Kel'thuzad spread plague to Brill and Stratholme in WC3 via infected grain.

To my knowledge, the Plague of Undeath used by Kel'Thuzad was created by the Lich King Ner'zhul. Kel'Thuzad only assisted by moving it around, and neither the Lich unit nor Kel'Thuzad in-game cast any type of plague spell.

-Professor Putricide uses Mutated Plague

I find it fascinating that you now consider Professor Putricide a Necromancer. So I assume that means you also now accept a Mad Scientist spec within a Necromancer class. In all honesty, I never viewed him as one and he's not labeled as one in-game (as you pointed out with Widow Faerlina), but it's easy to make connections between poison, necromancy, the Cult of the Damned, alchemy, and in-game lore to see that an alchemy/poison spec for a Necromancer class makes perfect sense.

-Heigan the Unclean uses Decrepit fever
There's more, but you get the idea.

Nope. That's it. Heigan is literally the only Necromancer in-game who casts a disease spell, and even then it's a nature spell and not a shadow one. First of all, you now see how ridiculous it is to try and use "show me an NPC in-game who casts this" as an argument against creating future possible specs in a nonexistent class when most regular NPCs have only 2 spells, and most bosses in Vanilla had less than 4.

Necromancers are capable of using dark nature magic (poison is also nature magic), and they are capable of using alchemy/poison to fight. This is a major distinguishing factor between Death Knights and Necromancers, no different than shadow magic is between Paladins and Priests (a topic you like to bring up repeatedly).

We've seen only one Necromancer in-game use a disease spell, and it's not directly through alchemy. A Necromancer class doesn't have to cast plagues and they certainly don't have to do it through alchemy. If they do use disease, they can use nature disease spells and Death Knights will use shadow disease - or Necromancers will only use poison and no disease at all. From dark nature magic and poison alone, a great deal can be done to make Necromancers the Priest/Paladin equivalent to Death Knights. I hope you can now see this.

@Ielenia

Well done. Of course, I love your ideas, haha. Your healer spec especially is my favorite. Your raid heal cooldown is cool and unique. I love how your mastery works kind of the opposite of a Resto Shamans'. I also like how your blood spec has way more of a blood sacrifice feel, and that you gave lots of spells that deplete the Necromancer's health and thus empowering their mastery.

A+

[Ielenia]

Coolio. It was just stream of consciousness first thought ideas. Point by point:

- I think when you want to destroy undead, absolutely. When you want to control, incapacitate or otherwise take advantage of undead the Necromancer should have a little something in his bag of tricks
- Maybe what's bugging me is that it's very skeleton centric? Should a Necromancer have the ability to summon different types of undead? Does this walk a little too much on the domain of the Warlock?
- I think the fact that all three specs have the use of a "golem" as the unifying theme rather than undead is what's giving me pause
- You're not wrong, yet I feel like it's still a core concept of the Necromancer. Maybe something in the area of utility spells could fill the gap. Like Create Phylactery. The Necromancer creates a vessel that stores his soul, allowing him to return from the dead. The Phylactery is placed on the ground nearby upon creation, and can be destroyed by an enemy before he has the chance to use it. (even with the caveat it's remarkably similar to a souls stone unfortunately)

• "Controlling" undead unfortunately falls to close to the purview of the death knight, since it has a spell that takes control over an undead minion. I tried to off-set that by giving the Bone spec an ability to resurrect a dead foe to fight for them for a little while.
• I personally don't see any issues in giving it the ability to summon wraiths or other type of undead. I focused on skeletons because of that OTHER class. I tried to make it marketable, so to speak.
• I kind of agree, but I wanted to give it a bit of "uniqueness" to the class idea to try to make it feel less like a "death knight in robes".
• The phylactery idea does sound way too close to what the warlock's soul stone is, unfortunately. I tried to think of something like that for the Blood spec, but I kept bumping into the Soul Stone spell.

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@Ielenia

Well done. Of course, I love your ideas, haha. Your healer spec especially is my favorite. Your raid heal cooldown is cool and unique. I love how your mastery works kind of the opposite of a Resto Shamans'. I also like how your blood spec has way more of a blood sacrifice feel, and that you gave lots of spells that deplete the Necromancer's health and thus empowering their mastery.

A+

Thinking about it, blood necromancers might be a headache to the other healers: "Hey, quit healing me! You're weakening my healing output, here!"

But yes, that was the idea: to center the spec about blood sacrifice. I thought of adding an example or two of abilities to drain health foes, maybe dead foes, to replenish themselves, buuuuut... I figured Warlocks might complain, so I left it out.

[Alpharius]

why isnt there a lich spec

Also for a necromancer I'd make something like a crypt fiend spec

[Teriz]

why isnt there a lich spec

Because then youd have a Blood, Frost, and Unholy spec.

Sound familiar?

[Ielenia]

why isnt there a lich spec

Because I don't believe it fits the concept? A lich is a necromancer, but not all necromancers are liches. Besides, Liches have a very specific, seemingly unmutable characteristic: they're all giant floating skeletons. While us, the players, are humans, draenei, orcs, goblins, all sorts of races... but not giant floating skeletons, unfortunately.

Also for a necromancer I'd make something like a crypt fiend spec

Crypt Fiend spec? Could you elaborate, please?

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Because then youd have a Blood, Frost, and Unholy spec.

Sound familiar?

Sound familiar?

Anyway, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

And yet here you are, continuing this discussion. Geez, this surely sounds familiar to me.

[Alpharius]

Because then youd have a Blood, Frost, and Unholy spec.

Sound familiar?

holy prot and frost

Because I don't believe it fits the concept? A lich is a necromancer, but not all necromancers are liches. Besides, Liches have a very specific, seemingly unmutable characteristic: they're all giant floating skeletons. While us, the players, are humans, draenei, orcs, goblins, all sorts of races... but not giant floating skeletons, unfortunately.


Crypt Fiend spec? Could you elaborate, please?

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Sound familiar?

And yet here you are, continuing this discussion. Geez, this surely sounds familiar to me.

I mean for all I care it would be a transformation for that spec akin to druids.

Well a spec based around crypt lord abilities like locust swarm and carrion beetles.

I personally would also make a bow dedicated spec and call that one dark ranger.