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  1. #1

    The Fundamental Problem With Death Knights

    Hello friends.

    Just to give a little background about myself I've been playing World of Warcraft on and off for the last 12 years or so and primarily during that time the Death Knight class has been my main; I fell in love with them since the beginning and haven't looked back since. I'm more a filthy casual these days but previously I was in high caliber 25m heroic raiding guilds (before mythic days) and have done lots of PvP.

    Over the last two expansions, Legion and now BFA, I have noticed Death Knights have gone further and further away from fulfilling their class fantasy though I will admit its mostly up to conjecture what that exactly means. However I will say Blizzard once stated they wanted DKs to be this dark, menacing and destructive class that while slow offer immense power and strength but quite frankly I'm just not seeing it. Yes we are slow and have few movement abilities but we're also not offering much in the damage or utility department either.

    Watching the race to world first for 8.2 and not seeing a single Death Knight being represented made be sad. Granted world first guilds make up a fraction of player base and overall community, the fact remains we bring nothing to the table that is of value and we end up just being 'another class'.

    In theory Death Knights should be one of the hardest hitting classes in the game but we're simply not. We don't offer raid utility like we use to with AMZ or haste buffs like Icy Veins and Death Grip doesn't work on half the mobs; meanwhile Retribution Paladins offer so much more while also doing the job of Death Knights much better.

    FROST
    I think it's safe to say at this point that most dislike Dual Wielding for Death Knights because it simply just doesn't fulfill the fantasy and the overwhelming requests to bring 2H back that continue to be ignored is saddening.

    Frost has also continued to suffer from scaling issues and the always ends up needed constant band-aid touch ups as the expansion progresses as we've seen. It really needs to be re-designed from the ground up. Only one viable talent build for 2 expansion in a row is also pretty bland and testament to the specializations lack of depth.

    UNHOLY

    Unholy is a great spec and is also somewhat competitive. The one thing I will say about it is that DW if it's going to be somewhere on the class makes a lot more since on Unholy since it's all about spreading diseases as fast as possible.
    __


    Overall I would really appreciate if Blizzard could focus a little more on our class, a class that really hasn't been significantly looked at in a long time.

    In my opinion we are just constantly overlooked: Same runeforges for 5 expansions in a row now, can't use any of the allied races, starting zone is completely out of date, offer nothing special or unique to raids or compositions and worst of all STILL CANT GET FROSTMOURNE!
    Last edited by itzLCD; 2019-08-03 at 10:48 PM.

  2. #2
    we had the same discussions when legion artifacts were announced and i whole-heartedly agree with your assessment

  3. #3
    The number tuning is really bad for both DK DPS specs since a while.

    The encounter design doesnt care at all about melee DPS. Easy to play burst specs with high mobility and raid utility/buffs/toolkits are numberwise high enough to be able to compete with range DPS.

    The DK ramp-up mechanic brought into LEGION/BfA, coupled with the low number tuning is a really bad combo. You have to deal with BoS-Frost high risk low reward mechanic or with the tripple ressource management and on the heavy side with active abilitys unholy issues.

    Icecap Frost would be the deafault Fury Warrior equivalent, but while blizzard allways manages to tune at least one warrior spec to comeptitive levels, Icecap Frost remains the worst DPS spec in the game right now.

    There is no fun involved when I compare simDPS and realDPS from my 440 geared DK to my 420 geared ALT's. Not only are the numbers worse on my DK but the simplicity of every other DPS spec in the game turns gearprogression on my DK to a mockery.

    This is just my opinion, but if you check the amount of LOGs from DK's or the amount of active players participating in the upper brackets of M+ there are massive amounts of players of this class just gone.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by itzLCD View Post

    FROST
    I think it's safe to say at this point that most dislike Dual Wielding for Death Knights because it simply just doesn't fulfill the fantasy and the overwhelming requests to bring 2H back that continue to be ignored is saddening.

    Frost has also continued to suffer from scaling issues and the always ends up needed constant band-aid touch ups as the expansion progresses as we've seen. It really needs to be re-designed from the ground up. Only one viable talent build for 2 expansion in a row is also pretty bland and testament to the specializations lack of depth.

    UNHOLY

    Unholy is a great spec and is also somewhat competitive. The one thing I will say about it is that DW if it's going to be somewhere on the class makes a lot more since on Unholy since it's all about spreading diseases as fast as possible.
    i think the issue is with your idea of 'fantasy' not meshing with the designers.

    also DW can stay the FUCK out of unholy as far as I'm concerned. And this mess about dw spreading disease faster is bullocks since melee autoswing has NEVER been a factor in applying disease.

  5. #5
    The Insane Kaleredar's Avatar
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    I don't think dual-wielding should be anything but a flavor choice.

    If I wanted to be a dual-wielding bitch I would have rolled a rogue.


    Moreover, the "slow moving but hits hard when they get there and gets started" is a pretty poor class design choice, both from PvP and PvE perspectives, as PvP will always be about mobility and CC and PvE will always be about not standing in the fire.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by itzLCD View Post
    Watching the race to world first for 8.2 and not seeing a single Death Knight being represented made be sad. Granted world first guilds make up a fraction of player base and overall community, the fact remains we bring nothing to the table that is of value and we end up just being 'another class'.
    What are you saying, there literally was a DK in the world first kill of the last boss.

  7. #7
    My fundamentable issue with DK right now is that it doesn't feel rewarding:

    As far as Frost is concerned: it feels slow, I am falling asleep while waiting to be able to press a global.
    As far as UH is concerned: current iteration has too much passive dmg. The pets/desease are just there, you don't really need to manage anything. Playing around the dot was fun with festerblight / necroblight because you had to do something. Pets would be fun if you were actually doing something with them. Right now, you have bunch of pets, you melee a bit, you press some buttons that don't feel impactfull.

  8. #8
    I still don't understand why paladongs got Ashbringer together with 50 more visuals for it, but we didn't get a single Frostmourne visual...

    But yeah, I've said it many times, and I will say it again. Classes losing their flavor is the main problem of this game. Blizzard are now owned by too many hungry throats who want only numbers and don't give a single fuck about the quality of the game. So what do we get in this case? Overall class homogenization and endless grinds, just to keep them players on board.

    The GCD increase is also a complete puzzle to me. Why? JUST WHY!?!?!? We sit like idiots and complete nearly a full yawn till that freaking GCD finishes. I'm really curious as to who is the moron who though this would be a good idea, and who is the other moron who actually let this slip into live servers. The gameplay is simply too slow and boring with these long GCDs.

    And as fot the DK, yeah, I completely agree. Just like all other classes it lost its charm too. Assigning specific roles to the talent trees. Removing presenses. Removing the DW/2H freedom of choice. All that was the DK, is no more. We're simply the next melee class, with all them equivalent abilities to other similar melee classes and that's it. Welcome to modern WoW.

  9. #9
    Make DK's have all 3 specs be able to tank or DPS like in Wrath which was the best time for DK's. Bring back Blood DPS and Ill resub to the game and actually play it.

  10. #10
    The problem is they're both based off out of date class design

    Current Unholy is basically using the old combo point system to deal damage through wounds

    Current Frost has all it's damage tied to a 2 min cd - which just isn't fun and can be very punishing if something goes wrong in the time you have that window up, an ability like Breath can work on a ranged etc, but as a melee - it's just a pain in the ass. I don't know a single DK who likes that ability

  11. #11
    it's not about the actual mechanics, but the fantasy behind it: lots of fast, small cuts are a more logical means of applying diseases and sores than giant 2h Sword Swings and vice-versa having a spec with "obliterate" and "nothing but the boots" in its flavour would make a lot more sense with a massive 2h-weapon instead of swinging two swords around

  12. #12
    I can only enjoy frost as DW, however I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more in Wrath tanking as DW Frost. The class in itself has just become boring, to me it's purely the rune system that kills it for me. Once they got rid of UH/Frost/Blood Runes I just stopped enjoying it.
    Last edited by Goldfingaz; 2019-08-13 at 03:55 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post

    Current Unholy is basically using the old combo point system to deal damage through wounds
    if unholy would build diseases on the blade before unleashing it on the enemy it would make sense to give it the new combo system and a lot more fun.
    i really dislike playing classes that have a long build-up without payoff and unholy seems to be a prime offender in that regard.

    "slow juggernaut who hits hard if he gets close" as overall dk class fantasy could not fit less for unholy if they tried.
    i'd love to play a class about spreading contagious disease-dots, conceptually outbreak is my favorite skill right bevor SoD from warlock, but the rest of the spec never felt as an appropriate addition to the playstyle: adding pets and summons, combo-point systems, melee with range finisher option and a ridiculously long cd dps cd, which feels incredibly unfulfilling to use, are all diluting the feeling of being powerful in playstyle and fantasy imho

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Icecap Frost would be the deafault Fury Warrior equivalent, but while blizzard allways manages to tune at least one warrior spec to comeptitive levels, Icecap Frost remains the worst DPS spec in the game right now.
    This (EP) is the first tier in all of BFA that warrior DPS has even been viable.

    DK DPS has largely been bad during the time that Blood DK tanking has been stupidly overpowered. If DK DPS was also very high, raids of all DKs + healers (or even no healers with blood self healing) would have been embarrassing.

    Wasn't there a boss or two in Uldir that was done without healers due to DKs being so broken OP? Or was that a M+ run?



    Either way, as blood DK tanks are falling out of favor, they've been buffing DK DPS. Although looking at WCL, seems DKs have drifted down the charts again the last two weeks.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    This (EP) is the first tier in all of BFA that warrior DPS has even been viable.

    DK DPS has largely been bad during the time that Blood DK tanking has been stupidly overpowered. If DK DPS was also very high, raids of all DKs + healers (or even no healers with blood self healing) would have been embarrassing.

    Wasn't there a boss or two in Uldir that was done without healers due to DKs being so broken OP? Or was that a M+ run?



    Either way, as blood DK tanks are falling out of favor, they've been buffing DK DPS. Although looking at WCL, seems DKs have drifted down the charts again the last two weeks.
    How was Fury not viable in BOD? Does a spec have to be in the top 5 to be viable?

  16. #16
    Personally I have not really been happy with DK since after WotLK due to the change to how runes recharged. It flowed so much better when they started recharging the moment they were used no matter what. And yes I strongly preferred two hand over DW frost as well.

  17. #17
    I think Death Knight would be cool if he was "melee caster". My idea is that he would have to "channel" his strikes for a short time before hitting strong attack. Of course, it would be castable while moving.
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  18. #18
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Was hoping for an interesting topic and it was simply yet another "please switch DW and 2h for two specs"

    *yawn*

    I remember 2H frost and besides the gimmicky big hits things i really don't see the attraction, well i mean i do get it everyone wants their spec to be an easy class that does shitload of damage. But i remember the rebalancing and the nerfs and all the crap that came with it when they tried to balance PvP at the cost of PvE and vice versa it was a mess.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    The number tuning is really bad for both DK DPS specs since a while.

    The encounter design doesnt care at all about melee DPS. Easy to play burst specs with high mobility and raid utility/buffs/toolkits are numberwise high enough to be able to compete with range DPS.

    The DK ramp-up mechanic brought into LEGION/BfA, coupled with the low number tuning is a really bad combo. You have to deal with BoS-Frost high risk low reward mechanic or with the tripple ressource management and on the heavy side with active abilitys unholy issues.

    Icecap Frost would be the deafault Fury Warrior equivalent, but while blizzard allways manages to tune at least one warrior spec to comeptitive levels, Icecap Frost remains the worst DPS spec in the game right now.

    There is no fun involved when I compare simDPS and realDPS from my 440 geared DK to my 420 geared ALT's. Not only are the numbers worse on my DK but the simplicity of every other DPS spec in the game turns gearprogression on my DK to a mockery.

    This is just my opinion, but if you check the amount of LOGs from DK's or the amount of active players participating in the upper brackets of M+ there are massive amounts of players of this class just gone.
    Best post in this thread +1 good sir

    The ramp up time has gone done quite a bit since early legion but it remains a bit of an issue higher up.

  19. #19
    The Patient CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itzLCD View Post

    UNHOLY

    Unholy is a great spec and is also somewhat competitive. The one thing I will say about it is that DW if it's going to be somewhere on the class makes a lot more since on Unholy since it's all about spreading diseases as fast as possible.
    Nah, fuck dual wield, make the whole class work with 1 weapon.
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  20. #20
    They just need to revert DKs to a pre-Legion state. That expansion completely fucked up this class.

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