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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puxycat View Post
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...a-class-in-WoW

    This is the same thing years later. Necromancer and Death Knight are very very very huge different classes please don't make me please don't make me say paladin and priest oh here we go i just did.
    @Shadowferal

    And Necromancer WILL be the next hero class and do you know why? Don't even need to make it complicated because Necromancer sells.
    Oh come now, if Wotlk didn't add the Necromancer and SL didn't either... Then we'll never get it.

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  2. #282
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    id play this class. seems pretty good to me
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  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Oh come now, if Wotlk didn't add the Necromancer and SL didn't either... Then we'll never get it.
    It wasn't until the third "demon" expansion that we got Demon Hunters, and it wasn't until SL that we learned necromancy and necromancers could be used as a force for good.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Konteil View Post
    id play this class. seems pretty good to me
    Please do tell. What spec would do you prefer?

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That book is actually outdated lore considering it refers to Necromancy as an ARCANE school of magic.

    You're operating an argument that is sourced from an old and irrelevant source while completely ignoring that both Fel and Necromantic magic are both banned by Dalaran.

    And no, the lore states that summoning demons is bannable or worse. The Warlock is the defacto demon-summoner, and traditionally has demon summons for every spec. There is no case where you can argue that Warlocks are excempt while Necromancy is the only banned magic type; both types have been banned. If it wasn't banned then there's no reason Warlocks don't appear out in the open in Dalaran.

    But this argument is getting increasingly circular. If you choose to believe Necromancers are banned and Warlocks are not, then that is your choice. Either way, it has no impact on the fact that Blizzard will choose to do whatever they wish with the game, and that ultimately I don't think they would pursue a Necromancer class outside of adding them as a Class Skin in the future. I don't give Blizzard any credit for adhering to the lore; the writers of the lore don't interact with the game designers as much as we expect.
    There is only 2 sources of magic, light and dark, dark is pure arcane energy and can be adapted and light magic is mostly healing/life energy, the WoW universe was created from those 2 sources of energy so all magic comes from either of those or a combination of both. Its not outdated information because dalaran still have not changed their opinion on necromancy.

    There is a reason why mages easily can switch to being a warlock or necromancer, its just a different version of the same arcane magic they have studied for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    @kenn9530 You keep ignoring the implications of Anduin. The Horde through Sylvanas and the Forsaken have always embraced the idea of Necromancers. Until now, there's never been a possible necromantic connection within the Alliance.
    Sylvanas does what she wants she doesnt care about anything other that her one goal as she would sacrifice everything to acheive it, and there still is no connection between anduin and anything to do with necromancy.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-02 at 07:49 PM.
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  5. #285
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    warlocks can use the souls of demons so there is no morality issues, necromancer morality issues are the use of the dead and parts of the dead you know the whole point in being a necromancer.
    You're literally trying to circumvent the issue by saying "it's fine that warlocks steal and consume the souls of people, because they don't have to if they didn't want to." Then by that logic, necromancers can use the souls of demons and beasts so there is no morality issues if they use the souls of people.

    there is no moral issues using demons or thier blood to increase power, not all notable warlocks are evil but all necromancers are so,
    This is a fallacious statement because, prior to warlocks becoming a playable class, there was no "not evil" warlock in the lore. Not a single one. They were created during and after the creation of the playable class.

    The laws of dalaran affect both factions as both factions have members in the council so stop talking BS about it not meaning anything to either faction as they are both integrated in the council, the council is the law in all areas of magic so what they say is followed. Dalaran could wipe out whatever they wanted as noone has more power than them.
    The only one talking BS about it is you. It doesn't matter if there are humans and blood elves in the council. That does not mean anything, because they're not there as representatives of the Alliance and the Horde. They put Dalaran first and foremost in their concerns, not the factions most of their kin belongs to. That's like saying all the rules of the Bloodsail Buccaneers apply to the Alliance and the Horde because right-ranking members of the pirates are goblins and humans.
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  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're literally trying to circumvent the issue by saying "it's fine that warlocks steal and consume the souls of people, because they don't have to if they didn't want to." Then by that logic, necromancers can use the souls of demons and beasts so there is no morality issues if they use the souls of people.


    This is a fallacious statement because, prior to warlocks becoming a playable class, there was no "not evil" warlock in the lore. Not a single one. They were created during and after the creation of the playable class.


    The only one talking BS about it is you. It doesn't matter if there are humans and blood elves in the council. That does not mean anything, because they're not there as representatives of the Alliance and the Horde. They put Dalaran first and foremost in their concerns, not the factions most of their kin belongs to. That's like saying all the rules of the Bloodsail Buccaneers apply to the Alliance and the Horde because right-ranking members of the pirates are goblins and humans.
    Its fine for a warlock to kill its enemy soul and all, but its not fine for a necromancer to also use the body for whatever they want, necromancers wouldnt use demons since they have no physical body to make use of.


    Not talking any BS, dalaran is the strongest faction in WoW so going against them is not very wise to even lose them as an ally, without dalaran the horde or alliance would not survive, noone would risk losing the support of dalaran just to have a slightly different version of a warlock.
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  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    There is only 2 sources of magic, light and dark, dark is pure arcane energy and can be adapted and light magic is mostly healing/life energy, the WoW universe was created from those 2 sources of energy so all magic comes from either of those or a combination of both. Its not outdated information because dalaran still have not changed their opinion on necromancy.

    There is a reason why mages easily can switch to being a warlock or necromancer, its just a different version of the same arcane magic they have studied for years.
    Your lore is oudated.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Magic

    I suggest you actually look into Chronicles and be revised on what schools of magic there really are. It's not just Light and Dark magic.

    Arcane is the magic of Order. Fel is magic of Chaos. Holy is magic of Light, Void/Shadow is magic of Shadow. Necromancy is magic of Death, Nature is the magic of Life. These are the 6 main schools of magic that exist, with various types of Elemental or Divine magic existing between them.

    Dalaran is also its own faction with its own system of government. The Alliance and the Horde are not beholden to their rules, and there is zero lore that says Necromancy or Fel magic are outright banned from the Alliance and Horde even if Dalaran decrees it so. As I've stated, the fact that Varian even tolerated the Death Knights shows that his ruling for the Alliance is above that of Dalarans. Dalaran actually has zero say in the matters of the Alliance and Horde when it comes to how warfare is conducted.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-03-02 at 08:42 PM.

  8. #288
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Its fine for a warlock to kill its enemy soul and all, but its not fine for a necromancer to also use the body for whatever they want, necromancers wouldnt use demons since they have no physical body to make use of.
    So you're saying that capturing and consuming the souls of the dead is all fine and dandy, as long as the leftover corpse is not touched? Really?

    Not talking any BS,
    Yes, you are.

    dalaran is the strongest faction in WoW so going against them is not very wise to even lose them as an ally
    Okay. First off: even if I granted this headcanon of yours that "dalaran is the strongest faction in WoW", what you said still fails hard because Dalaran is not an allied nation to any of the factions. In fact, Dalaran is a neutral nation: "Kirin Tor - The main body of the city with its leaders of the Council ruling over it. Neutral to the Alliance and the Horde. Led by Archmage Khadgar." They are not out to police the other factions.

    without dalaran the horde or alliance would not survive,
    Funny. We survived C'Thun and Naxxaramas. We survived the Lich King. We survived Deathwing. We survived Garrosh and the Sha. We survived Azshara and N'Zoth.

    a slightly different version of a warlock.
    As far as I know, no one is asking for a "slightly different version of a warlock", so take your misrepresentations elsewhere.
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  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    It wasn't until the third "demon" expansion that we got Demon Hunters, and it wasn't until SL that we learned necromancy and necromancers could be used as a force for good.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Please do tell. What spec would do you prefer?
    id play undeath. seems like a fun pet class type. almost hybrids like the necro from old school DOAC
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  10. #290
    Feh...when Blizz finally goes "free-to-play" this might happen. And only if they can con a bunch of developers into donating their efforts.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Your lore is oudated.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Magic

    I suggest you actually look into Chronicles and be revised on what schools of magic there really are. It's not just Light and Dark magic.

    Arcane is the magic of Order. Fel is magic of Chaos. Holy is magic of Light, Void/Shadow is magic of Shadow. Necromancy is magic of Death, Nature is the magic of Life. These are the 6 main schools of magic that exist, with various types of Elemental or Divine magic existing between them.

    Dalaran is also its own faction with its own system of government. The Alliance and the Horde are not beholden to their rules, and there is zero lore that says Necromancy or Fel magic are outright banned from the Alliance and Horde even if Dalaran decrees it so. As I've stated, the fact that Varian even tolerated the Death Knights shows that his ruling is above that of Dalaran.
    There is only 2 sources of cosmic powers in WoW, light and dark from the chronicles, those 2 forces created a WoW version of the big bang and created the universe, so it doesnt matter what variations of study can be done all types of magic come from either the light or dark cosmic force from the start of the universe.

    Void/shadow/fire/frost/etc all start with arcane magic, holy/nature/etc start with life magic, then you get combinations of both like fel. It doesnt matter if there are many different types they all start with arcane(dark) or life(light), the blood of the planet is arcane and also the titans.
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  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    There is only 2 sources of cosmic powers in WoW, light and dark from the chronicles, those 2 forces created a WoW version of the big bang and created the universe, so it doesnt matter what variations of study can be done all types of magic come from either the light or dark cosmic force from the start of the universe.
    None of which are outright banned by the Alliance or the Horde. Priests openly use both Light and Shadow variety of magic and neither has been banned. Void Elves use Void magic, acceptable to the Alliance. Forsaken still have Cannabalize, which literally desecrates corpses, and they are still a part of the Horde.

    Whatever moral issues you personally have against Necromancy or the desecration of corpses, the Alliance and Horde don't share your opinion on the matter.

    How would you excuse the Forsaken having a Cannabalize ability? "Well they aren't cannabalizing all the time so they're not doing anything morally questionable'? It's a racial ability.


    Void/shadow/fire/frost/etc all start with arcane magic, holy/nature/etc start with life magic, then you get combinations of both like fel. It doesnt matter if there are many different types they all start with arcane(dark) or life(light)
    That's not lore. Read up on the link I provided earlier. There are 6 realms of magic. Arcane is not dark magic, Life is not light magic. You're not talking about Warcraft lore if you're still thinking this is how Magic in Warcraft works.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-03-02 at 10:03 PM.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    There is only 2 sources of magic, light and dark, dark is pure arcane energy and can be adapted and light magic is mostly healing/life energy, the WoW universe was created from those 2 sources of energy so all magic comes from either of those or a combination of both. Its not outdated information because dalaran still have not changed their opinion on necromancy.

    There is a reason why mages easily can switch to being a warlock or necromancer, its just a different version of the same arcane magic they have studied for years.
    Source...for any of that.

    You also never answered my question.

    Why do the laws in Dalaran, which can only be enforced in Dalaran, make it so Necromancer would be impossible to be a class?

  14. #294
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Source...for any of that.

    You also never answered my question.

    Why do the laws in Dalaran, which can only be enforced in Dalaran, make it so Necromancer would be impossible to be a class?
    Because he thinks that Dalaran somehow rules over the entire planet of Azeroth and all factions, including the Alliance and the Horde, are somehow beholden to Kirin Tor law.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Because he thinks that Dalaran somehow rules over the entire planet of Azeroth and all factions, including the Alliance and the Horde, are somehow beholden to Kirin Tor law.
    Which is what I'm getting at, it's ridiculous to think so. Otherwise Warlocks wouldn't be playable, Death Knights would all be hunted to extinction, Demon Hunters would be on Azeroth's most wanted list and Scholomance would have been eradicated LONG ago for being a literal school for necromancy.

    They're a neutral faction, albeit very powerful and influential one, but not the world magic police.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Which is what I'm getting at, it's ridiculous to think so. Otherwise Warlocks wouldn't be playable, Death Knights would all be hunted to extinction, Demon Hunters would be on Azeroth's most wanted list and Scholomance would have been eradicated LONG ago for being a literal school for necromancy.

    They're a neutral faction, albeit very powerful and influential one, but not the world magic police.
    There's an incredible amount of double standard and confirmation bias in play in order to excuse Warlocks as not doing anything questionable while having Necromancy be singled out as the only banned source of magic in Dalaran, and on top of that extend Dalaran's own laws to apply to both the Alliance and Horde.

    I mean, admittedly, even Teriz wouldn't go this far.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    There is only 2 sources of cosmic powers in WoW, light and dark from the chronicles, those 2 forces created a WoW version of the big bang and created the universe, so it doesnt matter what variations of study can be done all types of magic come from either the light or dark cosmic force from the start of the universe.

    Void/shadow/fire/frost/etc all start with arcane magic, holy/nature/etc start with life magic, then you get combinations of both like fel. It doesnt matter if there are many different types they all start with arcane(dark) or life(light), the blood of the planet is arcane and also the titans.
    You're confusing old lore with the new stuff, In the old lore it was Divine vs Arcane magic with Nature (Druidism and Shamanism) and Holy being Divine Magic and Arcane Magic being Arcane, Fel and Necromancy, Shadow was shared with both. in the old lore Arcane Magic was essentially treated as gateway drug to Fel and Necromancy and was inherently corruptive Fel and Necromancy were just considered more corrupted forms of Arcane magic.

    Now each of the 6 main forms of magic (Holy, Shadow, Necromancy, Fel, Arcane & Nature) are manifestations of a cosmic force (Light, Void, Death, Disorder, Order & Life) and each are considered seperate , Light did come first then Void whose intermingling created reality, each of the 6 forces are considered seperate this is outright shown in Shadowlands where we see both the Light (In Revendreth) and Void (In Bastion) trying to invade parts of the Shadowlands, one of the Paragons also states that "Light, Void… such trifling powers have no purchase here" why would the Void be trying to invade the realm of Death if they are the same thing?

    The blood of the planet is arcane because Azeroth is a nascent titan which is a being of Order which manifests as Arcane magic.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-03-02 at 10:34 PM.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    You're confusing old lore with the new stuff, In the old lore it was Divine vs Arcane magic with Nature (Druidism and Shamanism) and Holy being Divine Magic and Arcane Magic being Arcane, Fel and Necromancy, Shadow was shared with both. in the old lore Arcane Magic was essentially treated as gateway drug to Fel and Necromancy and was inherently corruptive Fel and Necromancy were just considered more corrupted forms of Arcane magic.

    Now each of the 6 main forms of magic (Holy, Shadow, Necromancy, Fel, Arcane, Nature) are associated with a cosmic force (Light, Void, Death, Disorder, Order & Life) and each are considered seperate , Light did come first then Void but the forces/magic have no association with eachother beyond that like you're suggesting (they aren't even opposed to/against their counterparts as seen in Ardenweald which is connected to the Emerald Dream/Nature), this is outright stated in Shadowlands where we see both the Light (In Revendreth) and Void (In Bastion) trying to invade parts of the Shadowlands, one of the Paragons also states that "Light, Void… such trifling powers have no purchase here" why would the Void be trying to invade the realm of Death if according to you they are the same thing.

    The blood of the planet is arcane because Azeroth is a nascent titan which is a being of Order which manifests as Arcane magic.
    Its the first volume in the chronicles on creating the universe, the universe was created from the 2 cosmic forces the light and void, light is healing/nature magic and void is pure arcane magic, they are the fuel that powers all the magic in WoW, magic has so many uses it is just split up into groups so its easier to study and defines what the user wants to do with it.

    All magic is a version of either arcane or the light or a combination of both.
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  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Death Knights, Necromancers, and Dark Rangers are all classes that use necromancy. They can all be considered "necromancers" but only one is truly the archetype that everyone thinks and wants when they imagine a Necromancer. WoW never needs a new class. There are currently plenty. The whole point of a new class is to build hype and add features.
    No. Not everyone, as has been made abundantly clear in every thread like this one asking for another necromancer class.

    Non-plate necromancers don't have their own Arthas or Illidan the way Death Knights and Demon Hunters did. Nor do they have a race they're closely associated with the way monks did with Pandaren. The hype argument could be made for any new class since there will always be a group of people pining for that oh so unique character that they want to play.

    As for features, necromages (for lack of a better term) just don't bring anything unique enough to the table. Even your proposed necromancer class feels like it's reaching way too much with "Chemical Necromancer". Necromancy is magic, chemical concoctions are more science based (think mad scientist rather than undead mage). Dr. Frankenstein isn't a necromancer just because he brought life into a corpse. And almost every ability of your "Faithless Necromancer" has to do with blood and bone, which only further cements the fact that Death Knights already cover these bases.

  20. #300
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Its the first volume in the chronicles on creating the universe, the universe was created from the 2 cosmic forces the light and void, light is healing/nature magic and void is pure arcane magic, they are the fuel that powers all the magic in WoW, magic has so many uses it is just split up into groups so its easier to study and defines what the user wants to do with it.

    All magic is a version of either arcane or the light or a combination of both.
    You are wrong. Look at the image of cosmic forces:



    Arcane, fel, nature and death are not 'combinations of holy and shadow'. Fel magic even reacts explosively badly with void magic, too.
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    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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