Page 20 of 32 FirstFirst ...
10
18
19
20
21
22
30
... LastLast
  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Okay, so when a DK hacks someone with Marrowind and turns the blood and bone emerging from that strike into a swirling shield of bone and gore, how is that not necromancy? When a DK slashes a target with their sword and causes disease filled sacs of pus to form on their victim's bodies, how is that not necromancy?
    Runic Power, as the entire theme of the DK is built around.

    Everything about the DK comes back to the Runeblades they use and master. They master the use of this weapon, they are martial combatants, and the magic within these blades simply augment their own ability to deal damage in combat.

    Necromancy is simply the type of magic they channel through Runic Power. Death Knights do not innately have spellcasting capability, everything is sourced back to the use of Runes.

    Again, this all plays into the Anti-Paladin archetype which is what the DK is at its core. Blizzard themselves built the entire WC3 Hero with this name and archetype in mind, it's really no surprise that the WoW DK follows through on this archetype. All of the summoning themes are simply carry-overs from the Necromancer concepts that were left unused, and added to the DK to flavour them further. It's no different than Warlocks having Metamorphosis when it was convenient to have. It doesn't redefine Warlocks into 'Demon Hunters' simply because of the themes and abilities they use; they are still archetyped as Fel Sorcerers/Summoners.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-03-03 at 06:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #382
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Westfall
    Posts
    2,730
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Okay, so when a DK hacks someone with Marrowind and turns the blood and bone emerging from that strike into a swirling shield of bone and gore, how is that not necromancy? When a DK slashes a target with their sword and causes disease filled sacs of pus to form on their victim's bodies, how is that not necromancy?
    Just admit it and stop wasting everyone’s time.

    You will not accept the possibility of a range/spell caster necromancer class existing with the melee necromancer death Knight class.

    You just don’t care for it yet you still show up in range necromancer classes thread to stir shit up and throw the threads off track for range necromancer fans.

    You are pain in the ass for people who come into a range necromancer thread hoping to read fan ideas on necromancy.

    Instead they get the same old bullshit you have been shitting out for years.

  3. #383
    Bloodsail Admiral Vasilisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    1,016
    The problem is that gameplay wise a lot of possible necromancer abilities are either DK's domain (summoning undead) or Warlock (fel/unholy magic). It'd be either copying their theme & skills or taken them away which would be kinda unfair (like with Demon Form that Warlocks "forgot" how to use).

  4. #384
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    16,039
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    What I'm saying is when they were given a bigger presence in WoW, things were changed to that there are some who are against evil when it comes to warlocks and death knights. Meanwhile, necromancers have been in the game since launch and have never had a single NPC that wasn't super evil.
    And neither warlocks or death knights were given a "bigger presence in WoW" until they were made playable. No "non-evil warlocks" in the lore existed before the playable class was introduced. No "non-evil death knights" in the lore existed before the class was introduced.

    There were no good death knights since Warcraft I until the Wrath of the Lich King expansion came along.

    Why do you deny the idea of that exact same thing happening to this hypothetical necromancer class? Why do you think Blizzard would not "give necromancers a bigger presence" and "change things to make some necromancers against evil" like they did to warlocks AND death knights?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  5. #385
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Westfall
    Posts
    2,730
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    The problem is that gameplay wise a lot of possible necromancer abilities are either DK's domain (summoning undead) or Warlock (fel/unholy magic). It'd be either copying their theme & skills or taken them away which would be kinda unfair (like with Demon Form that Warlocks "forgot" how to use).
    The necromancer class can be influenced and use the magic of the Shadowlands

  6. #386
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,590
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Way to twist my words because you're utterly incapable of admitting you're wrong. I said the TINKER abilities from WC3 don't exist. Tinker npcs have been in WoW since vanilla yet the claw pack and pocket factory have NEVER appeared. This pretty much spells out that those abilities simply don't fucking exist in canon anymore.
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=136297/cluster-rocket

    What tinker ability from HotS appearing in game as a spell? Because I looked it up and the only abilities that exist in game are engineering items. So by your own logic, engineers are tinkers and therefore we don't need an entire class since they already have representation in game.
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261516/rock-it-turret
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261788/grav-o-bomb-3000
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261752/deth-lazor
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261739/xplodium-charge
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=276851...goblin-defense
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-03-03 at 06:05 PM.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And neither warlocks or death knights were given a "bigger presence in WoW" until they were made playable. No "non-evil warlocks" in the lore existed before the playable class was introduced. No "non-evil death knights" in the lore existed before the class was introduced.

    Why do you deny the idea of that exact same thing happening to this hypothetical necromancer class? Why do you think Blizzard would not "give necromancers a bigger presence" and "change things to make some necromancers against evil" like they did to warlocks AND death knights?
    Because at least with warlock and death knights, Blizzard gave them an out. Warlocks in lore don't all practice fel magic. Most of them practice shadow and fire magic. Death knights were raised against their will. Necromancers are all willingly wielding death magic and don't use any other schools of magic. If Blizzard wanted there to be necromancer heroes, they'd have to utterly retcon massive swaths of the lore because they essentially painted themselves into a corner by showing that warlocks are all willing villains only wielding magic that desecrates the dead.

  8. #388
    Considering how blizz pillaged other classes of abilities and talents/spells just to make demonhunter, why would anyone think for a moment that it's a good idea to see that sort of thing happen again?

  9. #389
    So as I said, abilities that are also pretty much represented by engineers. There really isn't enough unique about the abilities you just posted to separate them from engineers. As a result, there's no need for Blizzard to waste time on a tinker class. I used to want tinker. But people like you have made me wish it never gets introduced because all of the life has been sucked out of the concept.

  10. #390
    Bloodsail Admiral Vasilisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    1,016
    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    The necromancer class can be influenced and use the magic of the Shadowlands
    True that though it only solves part of the problem. The typical iconic necromancer (fantasy, d&d type) focuses mainly on raising corpses and (less often) summoning undead (mainly as powerful high-level spells/rituals). In Wow this is what Deathknights do. I somehow can't imagine how could we fit this into Wow while distinguishing it from DKs at the same time.

  11. #391
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,590
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Considering how blizz pillaged other classes of abilities and talents/spells just to make demonhunter, why would anyone think for a moment that it's a good idea to see that sort of thing happen again?
    Exactly. The lack of concern for other players is disappointing to see.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You can raise skeletons out of beast corpses too. A Necromancer's minion is a reanimated creature created from flesh and bone. The Necrolords of Maldraxxus even specialize in Fleshcraft, meaning there is no specific type of flesh that needs to be used, any can be crafted and shaped into form.

    You could have a Necromancer who chooses only to raise undead minions out of the corpses of Beasts. That would satisfy your requisite of a 'non-evil' variety of Necromancer.



    Even if that soul is of a good person?

    An enemy is simply one who opposes you. A Forsaken Necromancer could see an Alliance civilian as an enemy. You have no problems with reaping the souls of the enemy, correct?



    So you're just making an argument that WoW doesn't need more classes, not that Necromancers can't be playable. If your argument is shifting to mechanics and visuals, then this is no longer about morality, correct?
    Necromancy is only evil and cant be used in any other way, using corpses also means transmitting death and disease, also a necromancer can only be undead as they get corrupted overtime and become undead.

    A warlock can kill an enemy but they rarely ever destory souls anyway, there is no case at all that the player destroys mortals souls with thier spells, once a soul is gone its irrelevant to the living realm since your dead, but a necormancer would have the corpse retain thier soul and be in constant suffering as having a soul makes the vessel stronger and have abilities from its host.

    The argument is necromancer is not a viable player class and never will be, the necromancers in shadowlands cant even be considered good but since its a realm of death the player doesnt really have a choice to be picky but thats only relevant to the shadowlands itself.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Exactly. The lack of concern for other players is disappointing to see.
    Yet you're ok with tinker repurposing engineering gadgets. The classic Teriz double standard.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    But we were eventually shown that not all of them were evil. Death knights didn't have a presence in WoW for the most part until Wrath. Sure there was some in Naxx but there really wasn't that many of them. We've had necromancers in the game since launch and all of them have been evil. Not even one has shown they were any shade of good aligned. Blizzard has made it clear that necromancers are irredeemably evil.
    Again, we need to be clear here. We KNOW that Necromancer was a frontrunner as a playable class, and they simply chose Death Knight to be the class to ship out instead. There is no case where a Necromancer even has to be redeemable, the same way the Death Knight isn't truly 'redeemed' but simply an agent of their own will who happens to choose to fight for the Alliance and Horde.

    Death Knights are not redeemed. They are still very much practitioners of darkness, and aligned to do deeds of evil such as the raising of the new Four Horsemen in Legion. This does not impact their role in the Alliance and Horde, as they use their evil against other greater threats.

    They are not a good-aligned class, even if their actions are for the 'greater good'. Their methods are very much aligned with evil, the same way you can roll a Evil-aligned D&D class as a main character and still choose to do good deeds, but in your own evil-aligned way. That is in no way 'redemption'.



    On top of this, WoW is fiction. 'Redemption' is applicated when necessary. There was no hint or indication that DK's or Warlocks would be 'neutral aligned' until they became playable, and we got specific lore to back that up. Why wouldn't you think this could apply to Necromancers? I'm really honestly wondering why you can't fathom you think Blizzard is unable or unwilling to do so. Just because Necromancers happen to be evil aligned right now and continue to be? Well so are Warlocks, and there are zero good-aligned Warlocks in the game. Even Meryl Felstorm is the closest, and he isn't truly a Warlock at all.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-03-03 at 06:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  15. #395
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Westfall
    Posts
    2,730
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    True that though it only solves part of the problem. The typical iconic necromancer (fantasy, d&d type) focuses mainly on raising corpses and (less often) summoning undead (mainly as powerful high-level spells/rituals). In Wow this is what Deathknights do. I somehow can't imagine how could we fit this into Wow while distinguishing it from DKs at the same time.
    That’s the issue here especially with resident necromancer denier.

    The necromancer doesn’t have to be based on the classic idea of it.

    It can be influenced by the necromancy of Mogu, Zandalari liches, Drust, and now the shadowlands.

    Imo WoW necromancer does not have to be like the Diablo 3 necromancer or the WC3 necromancer.

  16. #396
    Pit Lord Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    De Other Side (Just kidding) Vancouver Island, BC
    Posts
    2,318
    Quote Originally Posted by The Butt Witch View Post
    It's not gonna happen because China.
    Well, that is kinda true, but they would probably just call them 'Spirit-mancers' or something lol

    They called DKs 'Fade Knights' too over there
    Last edited by Bwonsamdi the Dead; 2021-03-03 at 06:56 PM.

    Another day, another Deal....

  17. #397
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,590
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    So as I said, abilities that are also pretty much represented by engineers. There really isn't enough unique about the abilities you just posted to separate them from engineers. As a result, there's no need for Blizzard to waste time on a tinker class.
    Yeah, let's compare Rock it turret to Gnomish Flame turret;

    As a Tinker for me to use Rock it turret I would just need to reach level 6 or 7 and press the ability the button. A turret would then appear, having stats based on my passives, level, and gear.

    As an engineer for me to use Gnomish Flame Turret, I would have to level my class to level 5 in order to pick up the engineering profession. Then I would need to level multiple levels of engineering in order to get the ability to craft the gnomish flame turret (it requires Outland engineering so its quite a few levels). In order to craft 3 of this device, I would need an adamantite frame, 2 handfuls of fel bolts, 3 Elemental Blasting powders, and a fel iron casing.

    Now, in order to craft an Adamantite Frame I would need 4 adamantite bars and a primal earth.

    In order to get an adamantite bar you need 2 adamantite ores and the ability to smelt adamantite.

    In order to get 1 adamantite ore, you'll need to combine 10 adamantite nuggets (in order to get enough nuggets for the bars, you're going to need about 80 nuggets).

    In order to get adamantite nuggets, you'll need to mine adamantite deposits, which are only in certain parts of Outland.

    And we haven't even gotten to the other regents yet.

    Yeah, totally like a Tinker class....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Yet you're ok with tinker repurposing engineering gadgets. The classic Teriz double standard.
    As a player you can play as a profession and a class at the same time. They don't compete with each other. Thus a Tinker with a turret ability doesn't interfere with an engineer crafting a turret. In fact, the engineering profession could actually benefit from the Tinker class in that it would give them another mail user to sell their armor to, and possibly another gun user for them to sell their weapon crafts to. Not to mention a tech profession should get items to craft specifically for a tech class.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-03-03 at 06:32 PM.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Necromancy is only evil and cant be used in any other way, using corpses also means transmitting death and disease, also a necromancer can only be undead as they get corrupted overtime and become undead.
    Immortality is their goal, so yes that is the point. They want to be undead and ever-lasting.

    If we're on the point of Necromancy is only evil, then how do you view the Death Knight's stance? They are defacto users of Necromancy and transmit disease and death in all three specs. There is no real example of a truly 'Good' DK in WoW, every one of them is either evil or neutral aligned. They are still fully playable.

    Are you trying to say that there can not be an evil-aligned class? Because if so, then explain the Death Knight in your own words. That they can not *choose* to be good aligned should not excuse them from being playable; by all means your argument is that Evil-aligned classes *can not* be playable.

    A Playable Necromancer simply entails a neutral stance while still pursuing the dark arts; much like how Warlocks are perceived.

    A warlock can kill an enemy but they rarely ever destory souls anyway,
    A soul is life. Life fuels Fel magic. The whole point of creating Soulshards is to capture life and consume it as Fel magic. They are destroying souls by consuming Soulshards. How have you missed this key feature?

    The argument is necromancer is not a viable player class and never will be
    Is that why Blizzard considered making a Necromancer class as far back as Wrath of the Lich King?

    https://www.engadget.com/2009-01-29-...-released.html

    "There were three front runners for the hero class to appear in LK:
    Necromancer, a ranged caster with corpse explode and such. Some of this ended up getting incorporated into Death Knight
    Rune master: "think rogue or monk type character"
    And, of course, Death Knight."
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-03-03 at 06:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #399
    Guys, we already struggle to get the promised customizations, stop seriously debating about which hypothetical class is more likely to be coming and just enjoy it for the fan-content it is.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    What I'm saying is when they were given a bigger presence in WoW, things were changed to that there are some who are against evil when it comes to warlocks and death knights. Meanwhile, necromancers have been in the game since launch and have never had a single NPC that wasn't super evil.
    True, but that's the same thing with Death Knights. Until a faction of "good" ones were introduced when they became playable, they were nothing but evil.

    Just because they were driven by evil or power before, and took up necromancy, doesn't mean that a person will always be that way. That's similar to Warlocks.

    I mean there could actually be tragic stories of good people turning to Necromancy to learn the power to revive their dead children, spouses, friends, etc... and immersed themselves in it with that goal.

    The lore is fluid. New stories and factions can be introduced that could pave the way for a player Necromancer class, if Blizzard wanted to. That's really the only question at this point is if Blizzards wants to introduce it or not, not whether it's possible, because if Blizzard decided to....anything is possible.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •