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  1. #421
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Being competitive isn't a requirement. That's literally just you moving the goalposts. If necromancer can't exist because you deem it too similar to death knights then tinkers can't exist because they're too similar to engineers.
    Uh yes it is. You can't DPS with engineering items. You can't tank with them, and you can't heal with them. You can't complete quests with just engineering abilities and you definitely can't participate in dungeons or raids with just engineering abilities. The purpose of a profession is not to replace a class. You know this and are simply making a bad faith argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    The problem is do either of these classes fit into the game?

    WoW doesn't really allow for high out of line of sight damage it breaks a lot of pve and pvp elements of the game. Turrets and even hordes of summoned npcs never really worked out well. Its why even BM needs los to activate most pet abilities.

    I think people are to caught up into fantasy and not really focused enough on what mechanics they could bring that warrant a new class with multiple specs.
    Demonology Warlocks can summon up to 9 imps that are constantly firing volleys of fireballs, and they summon those warlocks passively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Need? No.

    Can have? Yes.
    Why would Blizzard waste resources to create a class that is doing the exactly same thing as the DK class outside of a tooltip description?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-03-03 at 07:04 PM.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    There's a good chance those spells, in canon, do not function outside of the Shadowlands. As you said, it might be that everything is considered "dead" there. We just don't know. Because outside of shadowlands, death magic is only used for...well...death.
    Then neither would a Necromancer's healing spec. It would be game mechanics. And it would still be thematic to themselves.

    I mean look at Priest lore. We have Gnome Priests who are 'Surgeons', Tauren Druids who are 'Seers worshipping the Sun' and Draenei who are followers of the Naaru. Where is the lore regarding the use of Old God Void magic for each of these identities? Shadow spec more or less exists outside of canon. Specs and their abilities need not be canonized into lore. Their names and themes are just flavour text to help integrate them into the Warcraft setting. There is no implication that your character would ever be subject to madness through using Shadow magic, whether you're a Shadow Priest or a Void Elf.

    The entire idea of 'Necromancer can only be evil' only applies to NPCs. If we're talking about a player character, like I said, we all exist outside of that bubble. These characters exist because they aren't bound to lore. Your DK may have a backstory connection that explains how they serve in relation to the Horde and Alliance, but by all means your character and what he/she does is completely up to you to define. You can be a pacifist DK who only levels through Herbalism if you choose to be; that doesn't define your character as being good or evil.

    And to date, you haven't given me any examples of good Warlocks in the lore. You've managed to excuse them pretty easily, despite there being zero good Warlocks in the lore. Would you take time to address this in your argument?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-03-03 at 07:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #423
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And herein lies the problem with this discussion.

    We are talking about classes. Not lore, not "jobs", not what you imagine the necromancer can be based on JRGPS, not what the necromancer could potentially be, but the actual class system within the game and what that class system has been consistently based upon.

    Semantic nonsense is when you say "The developer stated that they took ideas surrounding the Necromancer and implemented them into the Death Knight class. That literally means the surrounding ideas, not the idea itself!" That is semantic nonsense because that isn't what "surrounding" means in that context, and the person pushing that nonsense knows it.



    What justifies Tinkers is that Hunters and Engineers don't possess the Tinker's ability set from WC3 or HotS. Every WoW class is based around those fundamental abilities, and to just bring this point back around; The Death Knight class contains the majority of the Necromancer unit's WC3 abilities.

    Again, herein lies the problem; The majority of people in this discussion simply don't understand or don't want to accept how WoW classes are structured.
    Since you brought in JRPGs into the mix let's look at two examples from Final Fantasy XIV. You have lots of scholars in places of learning. It only makes sense. Then you have Scholar, which is a healer class that uses the teaching of a very specific kind of scholars. Notice, the capital letter. The same is being done now with sages (very smart people) and Sages (healers that wield floating magical blades).

    You can also do that with necromancers, and Necromancers. Back before Demon Hunters were playable, Warlocks had metamorphosis. Locks also had Death Coil which was a Death Knight ability in WCIII. Despite this warlocks were neither Demon Hunters nor death knights. Paladins and Priests even share a spec name. Same for Druids and Shamans (Shamen?). There will always be overlap because Blizzard can't make 36 different specs, but wants to maintain the illusion it does.

    Bu no matter how much you overlap, or how much you homogenize classes a heavy armor wearing melee focused class will always have a different feel to it than a cloth wearing caster.
    Last edited by Wangming; 2021-03-03 at 07:08 PM.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh yes it is. You can't DPS with engineering items. You can't tank with them, and you can't heal with them. You can't complete quests with just engineering abilities and you definitely can't participate in dungeons or raids with just engineering abilities. The purpose of a profession is not to replace a class. You know this and are simply making a bad faith argument.

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    Demonology Warlocks can summon up to 9 imps that are constantly firing volleys of fireballs, and they summon those warlocks passively.



    Why would Blizzard waste resources to create a class that is doing the exactly same thing as the DK class outside of a tooltip description?
    Why would Blizzard waste time creating tinker when engineering does pretty much the same thing? they can easily take the lazy route they usually do and never introduce tinker because we already have engineering. Ya know....like how it took 15 years to get a quel'dorei customization because blood elves already existed.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh yes it is. You can't DPS with engineering items. You can't tank with them, and you can't heal with them. You can't complete quests with just engineering abilities and you definitely can't participate in dungeons or raids with just engineering abilities. The purpose of a profession is not to replace a class. You know this and are simply making a bad faith argument.

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    Demonology Warlocks can summon up to 9 imps that are constantly firing volleys of fireballs, and they summon those warlocks passively.



    Why would Blizzard waste resources to create a class that is doing the exactly same thing as the DK class outside of a tooltip description?
    Those imps don't do much damage and don't last very long with resources the lock gains while in combat actively attacking the enemy...

    It just isn't a concept wow can support. Any class that can break the los rule outside of a major cd like hunters would by necessity be so weak no one would ever taken them anywhere or so broken as to never want anything else beyond buffs.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why would Blizzard waste resources to create a class that is doing the exactly same thing as the DK class outside of a tooltip description?
    I wouldn't call class skins a waste of resources.

    Allied Races were pretty popular and successful, and it could easily be applied to classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #427
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    You can also do that with necromancers, and Necromancers. Back before Demon Hunters were playable, Warlocks had metamorphosis. Locks also had Death Coil which was a Death Knight ability in WCIII. Despite this warlocks were neither Demon Hunters nor death knights. Paladins and Priests even share a spec name. Same for Druids and Shamans (Shamen?). There will always be overlap because Blizzard can't make 36 different specs, but wants to maintain the illusion it does.

    Bu no matter how much you overlap, or how much you homogenize classes a heavy armor wearing melee focused class will always have a different feel to it than a cloth wearing caster.
    But there's the difference; Death Coil and Metamorphosis were individual abilities that really didn't define the Warlock class. Necromancy DOES define the Death Knight class though. It would be the equivalent of creating Dreadlord class that can summon a wide variety demons in multiple ways, and use demonic magic, with the only difference is that they can also fight in melee range.

    That's what we currently have with the DK class.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    But there's the difference; Death Coil and Metamorphosis were individual abilities that really didn't define the Warlock class. Necromancy DOES define the Death Knight class though. It would be the equivalent of creating Dreadlord class that can summon a wide variety demons in multiple ways, and use demonic magic, with the only difference is that they can also fight in melee range.

    That's what we currently have with the DK class.
    The archetype of the DK is a Necromantic Antipaladin.

    What doesn't define the DK is *SUMMONING*, since it's only a tertiary aspect of the class identity. DK's in WC3 did not revolve around the use of Animate Dead, and frankly no one even used it in the game because the mana was better saved and spent on Death Coil. The archetype of the DK is an Antipaladin, and they would not actually be at a loss if the minion-summoning gameplay was toned down to a degree; at least in respect to Abominations and Skeletons.

    They can keep the majority of summons that they have. Blood worms, Frost Wyrms, Ghouls, Gargoyles, Dancing Blades; all of these can stay and wouldn't impact them at all. Army of the Dead is simply a cooldown ability, and that's fine to keep as is. Unholy can even keep the permanent Ghoul pet and its upgrades, as well as use of Gargoyles. Commanding the undead is a fine theme for this spec, it'd just have to be modified slightly to allow room; just like how Warlock lost Death Coil but got a proper Mortal Coil replacement. Again, only loss would be Abominations and Skeletons. Right now the DK just has those because it's convenient and untapped; much like how Warlock had Death Coil and Metamorphosis.

    Abominations and Skeletons are about the extent that I'd say should be moved into the Necromancer kits instead, and they could then be further themed with various Golems, Oozes, Spiders and Pests, and other types of Spirits.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-03-03 at 07:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #429
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    Those imps don't do much damage and don't last very long with resources the lock gains while in combat actively attacking the enemy...

    It just isn't a concept wow can support. Any class that can break the los rule outside of a major cd like hunters would by necessity be so weak no one would ever taken them anywhere or so broken as to never want anything else beyond buffs.
    Wild Imps last for about 10 seconds. Rock it turret lasts for 15 seconds.

    Not a huge difference, and a Tinker would actually have to place them, and they can't summon nearly as many.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Wild Imps last for about 10 seconds. Rock it turret lasts for 15 seconds.

    Not a huge difference, and a Tinker would actually have to place them, and they can't summon nearly as many.
    Well how much damage would you tie into that turrent what is the placement time and its range?

    It sounds like a dead spell to me.

  11. #431
    You have to be dense to thinking that Necromancer is redundant because Unholy DKs exist. The difference between Unholy DK and a Necromancer is as substantial as the difference between Paladin and Priest. Nobody ever said Paladins should not be healers because Priests already exist, that's stupid.

    Shadowlands gives us all the necessary themes to make the Necromancer dream work.

    The Venthyr magic is the source of Blood & Vampirism Necromancy, it could even be a Lifesteal-based Healer spec.

    The Maldraxxus magic is the source of Summoning & Fleshcraft Necromancy, it could be the first caster-Tank spec.

    The Maw could be the source of Domination & Frost Necromancy, where you can go full blown Wizard Lich King mode.

  12. #432
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    Well how much damage would you tie into that turrent what is the placement time and its range?

    It sounds like a dead spell to me.
    Who knows? How much damage is tied to wild imps within the Demonology spec considering that you can summon a huge amount of them, can't target them, and use them to trigger Demonbolt and Implosion?

    The end point is that this isn't some broken new form of gameplay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    You have to be dense to thinking that Necromancer is redundant because Unholy DKs exist. The difference between Unholy DK and a Necromancer is as substantial as the difference between Paladin and Priest. Nobody ever said Paladins should not be healers because Priests already exist, that's stupid.

    Shadowlands gives us all the necessary themes to make the Necromancer dream work.

    The Venthyr magic is the source of Blood & Vampirism Necromancy, it could even be a Lifesteal-based Healer spec.

    The Maldraxxus magic is the source of Summoning & Fleshcraft Necromancy, it could be the first caster-Tank spec.

    The Maw could be the source of Domination & Frost Necromancy, where you can go full blown Wizard Lich King mode.
    You do know that that is an inverted DK right?

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Who knows? How much damage is tied to wild imps within the Demonology spec considering that you can summon a huge amount of them, can't target them, and use them to trigger Demonbolt and Implosion?

    The end point is that this isn't some broken new form of gameplay.

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    You do know that that is an inverted DK right?
    Wouldn't that be dope?

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    Well how much damage would you tie into that turrent what is the placement time and its range?

    It sounds like a dead spell to me.
    Dont bother - this has been explained to him over and over again. If they deal a lot of damage, Blizzard and the player-base would not like it - no one wants some passive dps totem sitting in the middle of an arena / flag room pumping out high damage while the summoner hides in a corner somewhere.

    On the flip side, no one wants to spend time summing and re summoning a totem throughout a fight if it deals bugger all damage.

    This is something Teriz refuses to acknowledge or address in any way.

  15. #435
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    But we were eventually shown that not all of them were evil.
    And when did that happen? When those concepts became playable classes.

    Death knights didn't have a presence in WoW for the most part until Wrath.
    The last boss of the undead quarter of Stratholme is a death knight. The whole Naxxaramas is a death knight base, too. The entire Military quarter was almost all death knights.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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  16. #436
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Dont bother - this has been explained to him over and over again. If they deal a lot of damage, Blizzard and the player-base would not like it - no one wants some passive dps totem sitting in the middle of an arena / flag room pumping out high damage while the summoner hides in a corner somewhere.

    On the flip side, no one wants to spend time summing and re summoning a totem throughout a fight if it deals bugger all damage.

    This is something Teriz refuses to acknowledge or address in any way.
    Yeah, because Shaman were so devastating in PvP with Searing Totem.

    Also from the feedback I've seen, people like the idea of a turret system.

  17. #437
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    No but they didn't run to Northrend asking arthas to turn them.
    I think every single necromancer in wow did it of his own volition
    Read about the second generation of death knights, and you might be surprised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Because at least with warlock and death knights, Blizzard gave them an out.
    And look what Blizzard is doing in Shadowlands: giving necromancers an "out" by showing that necromancy, by itself, is not evil with Maldraxxus lore.

    Warlocks in lore don't all practice fel magic. Most of them practice shadow and fire magic.
    Um... they all do. Their "fire magic" is just incendiary fel magic, in the lore.

    Death knights were raised against their will.
    And continue to willingly practice necromancy, desecrating the souls and bodies of the dead, even after regaining their free will.

    Necromancers are all willingly wielding death magic and don't use any other schools of magic.
    So are the death knights.

    If Blizzard wanted there to be necromancer heroes, they'd have to utterly retcon massive swaths of the lore because they essentially painted themselves into a corner by showing that warlocks are all willing villains only wielding magic that desecrates the dead.
    They don't have to retcon a single thing, like they didn't have to for the death knights.
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  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Read about the second generation of death knights, and you might be surprised.

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    And look what Blizzard is doing in Shadowlands: giving necromancers an "out" by showing that necromancy, by itself, is not evil with Maldraxxus lore.


    Um... they all do. Their "fire magic" is just incendiary fel magic, in the lore.


    And continue to willingly practice necromancy, desecrating the souls and bodies of the dead, even after regaining their free will.


    So are the death knights.


    They don't have to retcon a single thing, like they didn't have to for the death knights.
    No. Warlock's fire magic is absolutely no all fel in nature. Most of it is arcane especially since most warlocks used to be mages. Death knights aren't directly tapping into death magic. They're using runic magic which seems to be much different than directly tapping into death magic. And Blizzard WOULD have to retcon a lot of shit since necromancy is outlawed on Azeroth. Even in Maldraxxus, some necromancers are simply portrayed as a little less evil but they are in no way good aligned AT ALL.

  19. #439
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Necromancy is only evil and cant be used in any other way,
    Shadowlands has shown otherwise.

    using corpses also means transmitting death and disease,
    No, it does not. They're not necessarily the same thing.

    also a necromancer can only be undead as they get corrupted overtime and become undead.
    By that statement, all warlocks become demons as they get corrupted. And that has been shown to happen in the lore, several times.

    A warlock can kill an enemy but they rarely ever destory souls anyway,
    You do know that a soul is destroyed every time a demon is summoned? Every time a "healthstone" is created? Then there are the abilities that consume soul shards. You're literally spewing falsehoods.

    The argument is necromancer is not a viable player class and never will be,
    And this bogus argument has been debunked twice by the game itself with the existence of warlocks and death knights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Butt Witch View Post
    It's not gonna happen because China.
    And yet Wrath of the Lich King happened...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    No, they really don't. Summoning demons is literally illegal amongst the Alliance.
    You do know an Alliance warlock summons Jaraxxus in the Trial of the Crusader raid, and none of the leaders of the Horde and Alliance say a peep about it? Well, Garrosh says the Alliance has summoned it to attack the Horde, but that's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So since a DK is channeling an army of undead minions through a weapon instead of channeling an army of undead minions with their lips we need an entirely new class?
    Except it's not a channel. It's literally a "fire and forget" instant ability.

    Semantics. The DK is a necromancer period.
    You say "semantics" and then engage in semantics, yourself. Your dishonest shows no bounds. The death knight is a necromancer as much as a priest is a paladin.
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  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, because Shaman were so devastating in PvP with Searing Totem.

    Also from the feedback I've seen, people like the idea of a turret system.
    And what ended up happening to that searing totem? HMM? What happened to it?

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