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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Because the core gameplay of a necromancer would be using dead bodies, binding souls to those minions so they are constant torment, creating massive abominations for many dead bodies, raising skeletons spreading plagues that cant be cured. None of what a necromancer is can be considered suitable for anyone helping to save the world.
    I can't get over how you're just describing the Death Knight class when you list reasons these things could never be in the game.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Destroying a soul is not a moral issue anyway as it frees the user from any possible suffering,
    It destroys the soul and the entity simply stops existing. You're basically saying it's fine to murder people because it frees the person from any possible suffering in real life.

    necromancers would use souls to animate corpses so they would be in constant pain,
    And warlocks consume parts of one's soul which would be just as painful if not more so.

    Shadowlands proves nothing with the helm, the only powers its stated to have is control.
    Bolvar said that the helm allowed him glimpses of the Shadowlands. And considering that he did not have Frostmourne with himself but still had necromantic powers, indicates that the helm grants powers as well.

    Lore doesnt support you on them being useless without a runeblade,
    I'll repeat, again, what you constantly ignore:
    "The single most important piece of equipment to a death knight is the runeblade. It is through the runeblade that a death knight commands the powers of frost, blood and the unholy. The runeblade also acts as a vessel to store the death knight's runic power.

    The runeblade is an extension of your being. A death knight cannot battle without a runeblade."


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    There is absolutely nothing saying that the dinos reanimated by the Void are anything other than undead.
    The void has never raised undead before, as far as I know, which lends credence to the idea that they are just puppets of the void.

    It's not headcanon. It's literally in the article for necromancy that you've fucking posted. Just because you skim over things for points that fit your narrative and disregard everything else doesn't make it headcanon. Try actually reading the whole thing.
    You're the one saying that "'chill' actually means death coil" because of the WoWPedia link.

    There is also nothing about death knight frost abilities being described as death magic or necromancy.
    It literally says "chill your enemies".

    I'm not projecting anything.
    You are. Because I posted evidence and lore facts, yet you're dismissing them and accusing me of using conjecture while engaging in it yourself.

    The majority of things you've said have been opinion.
    And more projections, considering everything you posted are nothing but opinions, and at no point you posted any evidence of your assertions.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-03-06 at 01:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It destroys the soul and the entity simply stops existing. You're basically saying it's fine to murder people because it frees the person from any possible suffering in real life.


    And warlocks consume parts of one's soul which would be just as painful if not more so.


    Bolvar said that the helm allowed him glimpses of the Shadowlands. And considering that he did not have Frostmourne with himself but still had necromantic powers, indicates that the helm grants powers as well.


    I'll repeat, again, what you constantly ignore:
    "The single most important piece of equipment to a death knight is the runeblade. It is through the runeblade that a death knight commands the powers of frost, blood and the unholy. The runeblade also acts as a vessel to store the death knight's runic power.

    The runeblade is an extension of your being. A death knight cannot battle without a runeblade."


    - - - Updated - - -


    The void has never raised undead before, as far as I know, which lends credence to the idea that they are just puppets of the void.


    You're the one saying that "'chill' actually means death coil" because of the WoWHead link.


    It literally says "chill your enemies".


    You are. Because I posted evidence and lore facts, yet you're dismissing them and accusing me of using conjecture while engaging in it yourself.


    And more projections, considering everything you posted are nothing but opinions, and at no point you posted any evidence of your assertions.
    No. You have posted conjecture. I even pointed out how the dinosaurs are called undead and you fucking double down on them being "puppets" because you refuse to say you're wrong. We had never seen the Void do it before but even though it was used that way in BfA, that means it's still never happened. Do you really not see how asinine of a statement that is?

    I've explained why what I've said are facts and you refuse to listen. Why even open a thread like this for debate if you are utterly incapable of seeing anyone's point but your own?

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    snip
    A quick death to your enemy is a mercy, the soul being in pain for years is just evil plain and simple. Nothing about necromancy is suitable to be a player class, anyone who thinks so is just naive and ignorant to the lore.

    The helm was made in torghast thats in the shadowlands so its linked to where it was created, the helm doesnt grant necromantic powers there is no lore at all to back it up, the helm just acted as a vessel to take control of whoever wore the helm.

    The lore doesnt back up what you said, you claimed if they dont wield a runeblade they are unable to even fight, which is not the case at all and nothing supports you on that. They dont need to fight as a deathknight o be useful, there are plenty warriors far more poweful than any deathknight could ever be, if you learn all the magic a deathknight would use there is no need for a runeblade to be a deathknight, the first deathknights didnt have runeblades at all because they were not melee fighters.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-06 at 01:49 AM.
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  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    No. You have posted conjecture.
    Says the guy who has yet to post a single link to back up his assertion.

    I even pointed out how the dinosaurs are called undead
    You didn't. You asserted that. You didn't provide a link to show that they're actual "undead" or "aberration" or whatever.

    and you fucking double down on them being "puppets" because you refuse to say you're wrong. We had never seen the Void do it before but even though it was used that way in BfA, that means it's still never happened.
    "That means it never happened" is a misrepresentation. I never said "it never happened". I said "we don't know for sure" because we never saw it happen for sure before.

    I've explained why what I've said are facts and you refuse to listen.
    Because I don't accept assertions without evidence. Back up your assertions with evidence.

    Why even open a thread like this for debate if you are utterly incapable of seeing anyone's point but your own?
    If you were to actually back up your assertions with some actual evidence instead of more assertions...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    A quick death to your enemy is a mercy, the soul being in pain for years is just evil plain and simple. Nothing about necromancy is suitable to be a player class, anyone who thinks so is just naive and ignorant to the lore.
    Except it's not a quick death. Every time the warlock casts a spell, it consumes shards of the soul. Imagine, in real life, a person being kept alive but every now and then the kidnapper shows up to carve a piece of their bodies off. That's the same thing, only with the soul.

    The helm was made in torghast thats in the shadowlands so its linked to where it was created,
    Bolvar specifically said Shadowlands, not the Maw only.

    the helm doesnt grant necromantic powers there is no lore at all to back it up, the helm just acted as a vessel to take control of whoever wore the helm.
    Watch the Shadowland's intro cinematic. Bolvar has necromantic powers despite not having frostmourne.

    The lore doesnt back up what you said, you claimed if they dont wield a runeblade they are unable to even fight, which is not the case at all and nothing supports you on that.
    Again:
    I'll repeat:

    A DEATH KNIGHT CANNOT BATTLE WITHOUT A RUNEBLADE!!


    if you learn all the magic a deathknight would use there is no need for a runeblade to be a deathknight,
    Except the death knights have no power without their runeblade.

    the first deathknights didnt have runeblades at all because they were not melee fighters.
    I'm not gonna repeat it. Read about the three generations of death knights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Says the guy who has yet to post a single link to back up his assertion.


    You didn't. You asserted that. You didn't provide a link to show that they're actual "undead" or "aberration" or whatever.


    "That means it never happened" is a misrepresentation. I never said "it never happened". I said "we don't know for sure" because we never saw it happen for sure before.


    Because I don't accept assertions without evidence. Back up your assertions with evidence.


    If you were to actually back up your assertions with some actual evidence instead of more assertions...

    - - - Updated - - -


    Except it's not a quick death. Every time the warlock casts a spell, it consumes shards of the soul. Imagine, in real life, a person being kept alive but every now and then the kidnapper shows up to carve a piece of their bodies off. That's the same thing, only with the soul.


    Bolvar specifically said Shadowlands, not the Maw only.


    Watch the Shadowland's intro cinematic. Bolvar has necromantic powers despite not having frostmourne.


    Again:

    I'll repeat:

    A DEATH KNIGHT CANNOT BATTLE WITHOUT A RUNEBLADE!!



    Except the death knights have no power without their runeblade.


    I'm not gonna repeat it. Read about the three generations of death knights.
    I literally posted the exact quote that marks the raised devilsaurs as undead and you made an asinine comment about them actually being puppets despite them being called undead. You haven't posted a single point that is solid proof anything. Everything you have posted has been your interpretation of things and when clicks on, those links don't actually back up ANYTHING you're saying. Like how the wowpedia link describes how the different races and factions use necromancy without actually using Death magic but you REFUSED to read that part of the very articles you posted.

    So I ask again....why participate in a debate when all your points are not made in good faith?

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I literally posted the exact quote that marks the raised devilsaurs as undead
    Except your quote doesn't do that, at all. It doesn't say "undead". It just says it raises them. And it doesn't say it raises them as "undead", which is why I pointed out that a valid explanation is that it just animated the bones with void magic, akin to a golem, instead of undead, especially since we never saw or heard the void creating actual undead.

    and you made an asinine comment about them actually being puppets despite them being called undead.
    It is a valid possibility.

    You haven't posted a single point that is solid proof anything.
    Which is fine, since I'm not making statements of fact, simply pointing out a possible explanation to the void raising the dinosaur skeletons.

    Like how the wowpedia link describes how the different races and factions use necromancy without actually using Death magic
    You didn't post any link of that sort.

    So I ask again....why participate in a debate when all your points are not made in good faith?
    If you would stop the projection, perhaps we could talk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The void has never raised undead before, as far as I know, which lends credence to the idea that they are just puppets of the void.
    Before BFA, Light has never created undead either. Light has always brought the dead back to the living. Calia is the first case where this happened.

    Umbric uses Void to do a similar feat to the dinosaur. It is definitely undead, and not just a mere 'puppet'. It is the first case in the lore where Void has been shown to raise undead.

    We now know of at least 3 different ways of creating undead with different magic (not counting 'Necromancy is Arcane' from the Dalaran books old lore)
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Before BFA, Light has never created undead either. Light has always brought the dead back to the living. Calia is the first case where this happened.

    Umbric uses Void to do a similar feat to the dinosaur. It is definitely undead, and not just a mere 'puppet'. It is the first case in the lore where Void has been shown to raise undead.

    We now know of at least 3 different ways of creating undead with different magic (not counting 'Necromancy is Arcane' from the Dalaran books old lore)
    We know it's "undead" because, as far as we can tell, it is Calia's soul in that raised body. We don't know if Umbric is actually raising the dead (i.e. pulling their soul back from the Shadowlands and linking into that dead body) or if it's just puppeteering it like a mage would an arcane golem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Drain soul is not the same as consuming it
    Semantics notwithstanding, it's still an attack on a person's SOUL. Which is I dunno...kinda evil.
    Like no other class has a spell that attacks the soul except maybe Demon Hunters?

    And what happens when you drain a soul entirely?

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    Semantics notwithstanding, it's still an attack on a person's SOUL. Which is I dunno...kinda evil.
    Like no other class has a spell that attacks the soul except maybe Demon Hunters?

    And what happens when you drain a soul entirely?
    Damn, now that you mention it, Demon Hunters literally carve off pieces of their target's soul WHILE IT IS STILL ALIVE!!

    But warlocks consuming a soul, piece by piece, or a demon hunter carving pieces of a living soul, those are all completely, totally a-okay!

    But a necromancer raising the dead by binding a soul to a corpse? That is a big "no-no"! And don't forget to ignore the existence of death knights, that do this exact same thing that is being condemned!
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  12. #612
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    it's not distinct enough from stuff like shadow-priest, warlock and deathknight to be viable. It's fun to speculate and theorize but I see something completely different out of left-field to be more likely. Then again is there room for anymore and can they handle more? If it happens it'll be reduced to one spec.
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  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Again:

    I'll repeat:

    A DEATH KNIGHT CANNOT BATTLE WITHOUT A RUNEBLADE!!
    And Necromancers would've use Runeblades, therefore they're NOT Death Knights

    (I think giving them Scythes are a class-only weapon like how DHs can only use Hlaives would be cool tho)

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    And Necromancers would've use Runeblades, therefore they're NOT Death Knights

    (I think giving them Scythes are a class-only weapon like how DHs can only use Hlaives would be cool tho)
    I think just making more staves look like scythes would be nice.

    Ooooh... what about one-handed sickles?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    snip
    When you fighting an enemy no matter what class you would be your either going to be slashing it with a sword, burning them with magic, shooting them with arrows so it makes no difference. The warlock isnt desecrating the corpse or using thier soul for anything further, the necromancer on the otherhand will do whatever they want with the corpse and soul.

    you do know that the only place the helm has a link to is torghast, it doesnt look anywhere else as it was made in torghast which is still part of shadowlands and still doesnt prove the helm has any more powers other than that of control.

    A person who is turned into a deathknight can battle without a runeblade, you have to be stupid to believe otherwise, the warriors retain all thier previous abilities so they can just battle with those, they dont need to use deathknight abilities to battle with, if a powerful mage was turned into a deathknight they wouldnt stop being able to use magic or a warrior wouldnt forget all his other abilities so stop talking total BS, i didnt say they would battle as a deathknight and deathknights are not all that powerful compared to someone who is the top of thier class.

    The first deathknights didnt use runeblades they attacked with ranged magic so a deathknight is far from useless without a runeblade.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-07 at 03:18 AM.
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  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The warlock isnt desecrating the corpse or using thier soul for anything further,
    Yes, he is. You have been demonstrated so by several others, numerous times, and yet you continue to openly, dishonestly handwave everything. Every single one of your points against the inclusion of the necromancer also work against the death knight. And many of your points also work against the warlock and the demon hunter.

    the necromancer on the otherhand will do whatever they want with the corpse and soul.
    And the warlock will do whatever they want with the soul while the body is left misshapen by the fel magic.

    you do know that the only place the helm has a link to is torghast,
    No, I don't. And neither do you. Bolvar specifically mentions getting glimpses of the Shadowlands. Not Torghast. Not the Maw. But the Shadowlands.

    it doesnt look anywhere else as it was made in torghast which is still part of shadowlands
    This nonsense you wrote there is akin to saying that a car produced in Texas can only run in Texas, and not any other state, "which are still part of the US".

    and still doesnt prove the helm has any more powers other than that of control.
    Look at the opening cinematic where we have a Bolvar without Frostmourne using abilities he did not possess prior to donning the helm.

    A person who is turned into a deathknight can battle without a runeblade,
    Except the canon lore expressly said they cannot, as without the runeblade they are powerless.

    you have to be stupid to believe otherwise,
    The only stupidity is ignoring canon facts in lieu of your headcanon.

    if a powerful mage was turned into a deathknight they wouldnt stop being able to use magic
    Except they do, otherwise we would have death knights using non-death knight abilities in the game... and yet we don't.

    or a warrior wouldnt forget all his other abilities so stop talking total BS,
    The only bullshiter here is you, who is ignoring canon lore of the game and stating their debunked headcanons as fact.

    The first deathknights didnt use runeblades they attacked with ranged magic so a deathknight is far from useless without a runeblade.
    I said it before and I'll say it again: read about the three separate generations of death knights. They are wildly different than one-another. The original death knights have nothing to do with the death knights of today, aside from having the same name.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    snip
    Your the one being dishonest, the player warlock doesnt go around desecrating corpses at all once the enemy is dead thats it. Neither do the demon hunters or deathknights do anything to the dead bodies afterwards, once they are dead thats it they are left alone. The player warlock does nothing to the enemy soul after the target is dead.

    Your the one claiming the helm has more powers when you have nothing to back it up, we know it has a link to torghast thats why bolvar can see torghast through the helm. Theres a reason its called the helm of domination because it controls the undead and makes you the lich king.

    And your ignoring the mourneblade that is the big huge mace bolvar has and projecting your unfounded theories.

    The lore doesnt back you up, it doesnt say they still cant battle without a runeblade it just says they cant do it as a deathknight so stop talking BS trying to claim lore says something it actually doesnt. All a runeblade does is grant you extra abilities you would otherwise need years of training for.

    A deathknight doesnt just forget all the abilities it knows otherwise it would be pointless to make them a deathknight, for the game it wouldnt be fair if the deathknight had access to more abilities than another class would it, even arthas as a deathknight still occasionally used his paladin abilities.

    It doesnt matter what generation it is, a deathknight is not useless without a runeblade and thats a fact, runes and runic power are only relevant to the abilities in the weapon itself not the users actual abilities they can use without runic power or runes.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-07 at 04:13 AM.
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  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Your the one being dishonest, the player warlock doesnt go around desecrating corpses at all once the enemy is dead thats it.
    Except that's "not it" at all. The warlock will from now on torture the soul he captured, carving and consuming bits and pieces of the soul. That is so merciful~

    Neither do the demon hunters
    Demon hunters literally carve off pieces of their enemies' souls and eat them.

    or deathknights do anything to the dead bodies afterwards,
    Death knights are constantly raising the bodies of the fallen. Read upon how the Unholy rotation works. They also make the corpses of the fallen explode.

    once they are dead thats it they are left alone.
    Demonstrably false, but hard facts never stopped your headcanons before, right?

    The player warlock does nothing to the enemy soul after the target is dead.
    They torture it by ripping and consuming pieces of the soul.

    Your the one claiming the helm has more powers when you have nothing to back it up,
    I have Bolvar's words, and the Shadowlands intro cinematics, which are two canon information. You, meanwhile, have shown nothing but your own assertions.

    we know it has a link to torghast thats why bolvar can see torghast through the helm.
    If it has a connection to the Shadowlands I would imagine it could also peer into Torghast.

    Theres a reason its called the helm of domination because it controls the undead and makes you the lich king.
    And that in no way disproves the idea that the helm could have other powers.

    And your ignoring the mourneblade that is the big huge mace bolvar has and projecting your unfounded theories.
    Do you know it's a mourneblade? You don't. But I can tell you this: it's not a mourneblade. And you know how I know that? Because it's lacking the most important part of the mourneblade: runes. It doesn't have a single rune in it:


    And we know Mourneblades have to have runes:


    The lore doesnt back you up, it doesnt say they still cant battle without a runeblade it just says they cant do it as a deathknight so stop talking BS trying to claim lore says something it actually doesnt. All a runeblade does is grant you extra abilities you would otherwise need years of training for.
    Except the lore says exactly that: a death knight cannot battle without a runeblade. It doesn't say "you can still fight as you did in your previous life", it outright says: a death knight cannot battle without their runeblade.

    A deathknight doesnt just forget all the abilities it knows otherwise it would be pointless to make them a deathknight,
    Why? Death knights on their own are powerful soldiers with just their death knight abilities.

    for the game it wouldnt be fair if the deathknight had access to more abilities than another class would it, even arthas as a deathknight still occasionally used his paladin abilities.
    Care to link to those instances? Because, as far as I recall, he never did that.

    It doesnt matter what generation it is,
    It does matter. At all. Because they're three different and separate versions of the "death knight."

    a deathknight is not useless without a runeblade and thats a fact,
    No, that's an outright lie. The lore expressly says that a death knight is powerless without their runeblades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    snip
    Since when is the player tormenting souls or even capturing souls, the only relevant warlock is the player so stop talking BS about things you have no clue about. The warlock doesnt do anything to the enemy soul afterwards and even if they did consume it fully it would be a mercy to prevent further suffering.

    The player Deathknight summons the same undead thats why his name is constant, they dont use corpses of the dead on the battlefield and dont have an ability to blow them up, even army of undead and apocoylspe is a temporary pure magic summon as it can be used without the need of a corpse.

    You have nothing backing up anything on your so called claims of the extra powers the helm has.

    The helm is connected to torghast, you know the only place the helm lets bolvar look into, it has never once looked anywhere else so even more BS from your mouth.

    The visual presence of runes from some pictures doesnt prove it doesnt have runes on it, he easily created shadowmourne so its not hard to create a hammer version of it.

    The lore doesnt back you up, it only says they cant battle as a deathknight, it doesnt say they cant battle as the warrior they were before, which is my whole point, your trying to cherry pick quotes and pass them of as evidence.

    It doesnt matter what generation because you are claiming a deathknight is unable to battle without a runeblade when there is actual lore saying otherwise.

    alexandros morgraine is using corrupted ashbringer currently as a deathknight, that weapon is not a runeblade.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-07 at 04:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Since when is the player tormenting souls or even capturing souls, the only relevant warlock is the player so stop talking BS about things you have no clue about. The warlock doesnt do anything to the enemy soul afterwards and even if they did consume it fully it would be a mercy to prevent further suffering.

    The player Deathknight summons the same undead thats why his name is constant, they dont use corpses of the dead on the battlefield and dont have an ability to blow them up, even army of undead and apocoylspe is a temporary pure magic summon as it can be used without the need of a corpse.

    You have nothing backing up anything on your so called claims of the extra powers the helm has.

    The helm is connected to torghast, you know the only place the helm lets bolvar look into, it has never once looked anywhere else so even more BS from your mouth.

    The visual presence of runes from some pictures doesnt prove it doesnt have runes on it, he easily created shadowmourne so its not hard to create a hammer version of it.

    The lore doesnt back you up, it only says they cant battle as a deathknight, it doesnt say they cant battle as the warrior they were before, which is my whole point, your trying to cherry pick quotes and pass them of as evidence.

    It doesnt matter what generation because you are claiming a deathknight is unable to battle without a runeblade when there is actual lore saying otherwise.

    Darion morgraine is using corrupted ashbringer currently as a deathknight, that weapon is not a runeblade.
    He isn't though.

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