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  1. #1

    Civil discussion about BF nerf

    Hello,

    as the previous thread was closed, because yea... too much toxicitiy. I would like to open a new one, and if anyone wants to just insult each other, keep scrolling and dont post please.

    Now on the topic. While I think that a nerf was justified I just think this is the typical blizzard "oh snap we have to do something because MDI" reaction. Absolutely without any thought they just slapped -15% (actually 15% out of 45% is a 33% nerf).

    This of course does its job in a high key/MDI environment, where ppl pull multiple packs of mobs and blade flurry gets really really out of hand.

    However, i think that mediocre groups that regularly just pull pack after pack got the shorter end of the stick. And lets not forget about 2 target cleave.
    I think much more viable nerf would be reducing the number of targets BF hits. That way MDI groups would get nerfed the most, and regular Joe groups would not feel the nerf so badly, depending on their style of pulling.

    And once again, only constructive replies please.

  2. #2
    "I think much more viable nerf would be reducing the number of targets BF hits. That way MDI groups would get nerfed the most, and regular Joe groups would not feel the nerf so badly, depending on their style of pulling."

    I think this would be a decent solution.

    There is some misconception that rogues in general are just brought for shroud ; outlaw was top because of cleave + shroud (occasionally)

    However the nerf was purely for MDI as we all know ; I just don't know why blizzard takes so long to fix something as broken as it is. MDI would probably have been Warrior (tank) druid (healz) + 3 rogues in a lot of comp's or at least 2 rogues which is I guess boring to watch - personally I have zero interest in watching it anyway

    Interesting though that I guess 99% of comp's will have a warrior tank and druid healer but of course they won't make any changes to that

    Surely its equally boring to watch a warrior tank in pretty much every comp and a druid / cat weaving druid healing?

    Sounds boring to me anyway

  3. #3
    man subtlety is really bad can we please have it reverted to wod subtlety? that is what worked and it was really fun to learn.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2019-08-12 at 06:45 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Rikkuu View Post
    Hello,

    as the previous thread was closed, because yea... too much toxicitiy. I would like to open a new one, and if anyone wants to just insult each other, keep scrolling and dont post please.

    Now on the topic. While I think that a nerf was justified I just think this is the typical blizzard "oh snap we have to do something because MDI" reaction. Absolutely without any thought they just slapped -15% (actually 15% out of 45% is a 33% nerf).

    This of course does its job in a high key/MDI environment, where ppl pull multiple packs of mobs and blade flurry gets really really out of hand.

    However, i think that mediocre groups that regularly just pull pack after pack got the shorter end of the stick. And lets not forget about 2 target cleave.
    I think much more viable nerf would be reducing the number of targets BF hits. That way MDI groups would get nerfed the most, and regular Joe groups would not feel the nerf so badly, depending on their style of pulling.

    And once again, only constructive replies please.
    The reason why Outlaw is so good in MDI is the utility and I'm not only talking about shroud.

    Even if Outlaw didn't have shroud they would still have a crazy good utility package:

    - Gouge
    - Feint
    - Cheat Death (essentially a combat ress… bringing 3 Rogues essentially gives you 3 extra CR's.. think about that :O)
    - Vanish (outlaw doesn't have to use vanish as a part of the combat rotation)
    - Riposte (100 % parry)
    - Cloak
    - Cheap shot
    - Blind
    - Sap
    - Tricks

    I don't think people realize how good Outlaw utility is even without shroud. Gouge and Feint are two of the best abilities in the entire game for M+. People who don't play Rogue have no idea how valuable these are.

    On top of that, Outlaw is also one of the best classes to deal with the affixes like Explosive and Bolstering as it is very easy to change target and control the AOE.

    People think Outlaw is popular in the MDI because of the damage meter, but that is not true. Of course it is a great bonus that Outlaw does good AOE, but it definitely not the strongest part of the spec.

    I think nerfing Outlaw AOE was the simple solution to the problem, but it was not the right solution. Outlaw didn't need a nerf in raids, only in high M+ keys. The utility is OP, not the damage.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-08-12 at 12:46 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The reason why Outlaw is so good in MDI is the utility and I'm not only talking about shroud.

    Even if Outlaw didn't have shroud they would still have a crazy good utility package:

    - Gouge
    - Feint
    - Cheat Death (essentially a combat ress)
    - Vanish (outlaw doesn't have to use vanish as a part of the combat rotation)
    - Riposte (100 % parry)
    - Cloak
    - Cheap shot
    - Blind
    - Sap
    - Tricks

    I don't think people realize how good Outlaw utility is even without shroud. Gouge and Feint are two of the best ability in the entire game for M+. Outlaw is strong because of the utility the spec brings.

    On top of that, Outlaw is also one of the best classes to deal with the affixes like Explosive and Bolstering as it is very easy to change target and control the AOE.

    People think Outlaw is popular in the MDI because of the damage meter, but that is not true. Of course it is a great bonus that Outlaw does good AOE, but it definitely not the strongest part of the spec.

    I think nerfing Outlaw AOE was the simple solution to the problem, but it was not the right solution.
    "Cheat Death (essentially a combat ress)" - um, how? *Healer dies* "It's ok rogue has cheat death".

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazz17 View Post
    "Cheat Death (essentially a combat ress)" - um, how? *Healer dies* "It's ok rogue has cheat death".
    Haha fair point. I appreciate the sarcasm!

    From my experience it is usually the melee dps that dies most often in M+ and MDI. So I rephrase my expression to "essentially a personal self-combat ress for the Rogues".

  7. #7
    A cap to targets hit (for example 5) would not nerf MDI groups, it would essentially remove outlaw as option.

    Most specs simply would need a complete rework to balance things in m+, which in the end would lead to losing even more class identity.
    The implemented heavy nerf obviously was a panic reaction to the mdi and they cannot just overwork a spec mid patch.

    It will be a complete mystery what they decided at their class design meetings for BFA when they gave classes like rogues or DHs so much utlity, but on the other hand decided that for example a arms warrior has no hard CC baseline and then has to decide between a mobility talent, a aoe stun and a single target stun. Obviously it was never their goal to spread utility evenly across the board (or they really, really should look for another job), and that after they saw in Legion how m+ has changed and added to the game.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    A cap to targets hit (for example 5) would not nerf MDI groups, it would essentially remove outlaw as option.

    Most specs simply would need a complete rework to balance things in m+, which in the end would lead to losing even more class identity.
    The implemented heavy nerf obviously was a panic reaction to the mdi and they cannot just overwork a spec mid patch.

    It will be a complete mystery what they decided at their class design meetings for BFA when they gave classes like rogues or DHs so much utlity, but on the other hand decided that for example a arms warrior has no hard CC baseline and then has to decide between a mobility talent, a aoe stun and a single target stun. Obviously it was never their goal to spread utility evenly across the board (or they really, really should look for another job), and that after they saw in Legion how m+ has changed and added to the game.
    Personally I think they should fix the problem by giving all specs the same amount of utility that Rogue and DH have. Because I think having a lot of utility is fun and it still requires skill to use that utility efficiently. I'm not saying all classes should have shroud ability, but they should have more CC and defensive abilities as long as they are based on skill. E.g. I like that Feint cost Energy to use so it has a negative influence on your dps when you use it. It's a tradeoff that requires skill to optimize. All classes should have abilities like this. Except for BM hunter of course. BM should only have abilities which are easy to use as the BM playerbase can't handle skillful gameplay.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-08-12 at 01:27 PM.

  9. #9
    My only gripe with this change is that it will influence outlaw's already marginal raid performance. It has one of the worst ST damage output, and now with frost DK getting buffed it will probably be the worst of all dps specs.

  10. #10
    I get why it was nerfed but I really disagree with the way it was done. It feels terrible to lose that much power in a simple tuesday hotfix after investing so much into this spec. Why haven't they nerf it at the start of 8.2 or waited for 8.2.5 so people can do so planing ahead. Now I'm stuck with a useless spec which I farmed all essesnces and azerite armor for. It will be fun to play a subpar assassination for months.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Khain View Post
    I get why it was nerfed but I really disagree with the way it was done. It feels terrible to lose that much power in a simple tuesday hotfix after investing so much into this spec. Why haven't they nerf it at the start of 8.2 or waited for 8.2.5 so people can do so planing ahead. Now I'm stuck with a useless spec which I farmed all essesnces and azerite armor for. It will be fun to play a subpar assassination for months.
    This is the part that irks me.
    IO / WP

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    A cap to targets hit (for example 5) would not nerf MDI groups, it would essentially remove outlaw as option.

    Most specs simply would need a complete rework to balance things in m+, which in the end would lead to losing even more class identity.
    The implemented heavy nerf obviously was a panic reaction to the mdi and they cannot just overwork a spec mid patch.

    It will be a complete mystery what they decided at their class design meetings for BFA when they gave classes like rogues or DHs so much utlity, but on the other hand decided that for example a arms warrior has no hard CC baseline and then has to decide between a mobility talent, a aoe stun and a single target stun. Obviously it was never their goal to spread utility evenly across the board (or they really, really should look for another job), and that after they saw in Legion how m+ has changed and added to the game.
    It is indeed puzzling to me that Blizzard lets some classes/specs have so much utility while others have none. Rogues have survivability, CC and utility for days while Warriors are stuck with Shout and an AoE fear that is close to useless, and Shamans... can save a brez every 30 mins in exchange for poor mobility and toughness? Have a delayed, AKA objectively inferior stun? yay.

    Another good example is Resto druids vs Priests. Resto has a complete utility package; roots, two different displacement abilities, soothe for some encounters, movement, the all-important brez. Priests have... Mass Dispel and a CC that works on one mob type. yay.

    IMO all healers should have a brez, and most utility should be made baseline. Stuff like Storm Bolt shouldn't be talent choices.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    It is indeed puzzling to me that Blizzard lets some classes/specs have so much utility while others have none. Rogues have survivability, CC and utility for days while Warriors are stuck with Shout and an AoE fear that is close to useless, and Shamans... can save a brez every 30 mins in exchange for poor mobility and toughness? Have a delayed, AKA objectively inferior stun? yay.

    Another good example is Resto druids vs Priests. Resto has a complete utility package; roots, two different displacement abilities, soothe for some encounters, movement, the all-important brez. Priests have... Mass Dispel and a CC that works on one mob type. yay.

    IMO all healers should have a brez, and most utility should be made baseline. Stuff like Storm Bolt shouldn't be talent choices.

    Thats the another thing. Maybe giving shroud equivalent to feral druids and tuning their damage a bit would shuffle the healer pool aswell, because the groups would not rely on healer having a bress anymore? Just a thought

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroxxic View Post
    This is the part that irks me.
    so, they should never nerf anything because people put time and effort into them? how precisely do they attempt to fix things then?

  15. #15
    It's not like Rogue has another extremely strong spec right now - and outlaw is still great. Jesus it's so entitled that rogues seem to not understand being like 20% ahead of every other dps in M+ is not a good thing

  16. #16
    Glad this happened now, I was right about to buy BFA and start leveling. I literally was hovering over the upgrade now button but decided to read patch notes first....Thank god I did NOT upgrade and re sub! This reminds me of why I quit retail almost 2 years ago. 33% nerf to specs cleave haha. Still the same old bloated hot garbage of a game with huge spec swings, casino loot and daily/weekly chore like grinds. Classic can't come soon enough!

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Coldkil; Today at 05:27 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    It's not like Rogue has another extremely strong spec right now - and outlaw is still great. Jesus it's so entitled that rogues seem to not understand being like 20% ahead of every other dps in M+ is not a good thing
    But why punish an entire spec so much for only being good in M+ multi-target fights? It's currently one of the worst ST specs, it's only good point was the aoe part. So now it's aoe damage will be around other dps's aoe damage, while ST is still bottom 1-2. I think most rogues understood that our aoe damage in m+ is too good, but getting nerfed to the ground without any compensation is not the solution but again Blizz took the shorter route.

    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    so, they should never nerf anything because people put time and effort into them? how precisely do they attempt to fix things then?
    This is not a fix, this is a band-aid at best. And why shouldn't people complain? We were aiming for specific weapons and items with very specific azerite trait combinations (like sin and sub) to have ok-ish dps in the few raid fights where we can cleave at least.
    Last edited by Avengerx; 2019-08-13 at 03:12 PM.

  18. #18
    Yes this change should have been pushed in 8.2.5. I do agree, a major nerf like this should have been held off until a big patch update, not just some random reset Tuesday. Give people heads up this is coming, and let them prepare to change spec's or classes, or make other changes to the spec to help off set the nerf.

    Now Combat spec just does average AOE, on par or worse than most others, but it's single target abilities blow, with crap dps and just not a good spec for boss fights compared to Sub / Assassin

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    Yes this change should have been pushed in 8.2.5. I do agree, a major nerf like this should have been held off until a big patch update, not just some random reset Tuesday. Give people heads up this is coming, and let them prepare to change spec's or classes, or make other changes to the spec to help off set the nerf.

    Now Combat spec just does average AOE, on par or worse than most others, but it's single target abilities blow, with crap dps and just not a good spec for boss fights compared to Sub / Assassin
    The nerf was appropriate, and I think we'll still see outlaw played in several dungeons in the MDI. This sky-is-falling attitude is just reactionary, and fails to appreciate just how broken rogues have been. That being said, I agree they should have made the nerf less severe, AND implemented a nerf to the BF scaling with mob numbers like...you know...nearly every other AOE ability in the game.

  20. #20
    They should have gave it back the energy recharge reduction. This was BF + ar is still a bit better then old baseline BF, but unbuffed BF is weaker.

    I have an issue with the ability because it scales too well with ST damage, which isn't the case for other classes.

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