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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The reason why Outlaw is so good in MDI is the utility and I'm not only talking about shroud.
    Nice write up but you couldn't be more wrong. The only reason you see 3 rogues in MDI is because of the ridiculous damage. Other classes have good utility too you know?

    JB once said it well "If your spec does good damage, we'll find a way to fit you in the group".
    People don't forgive, they forget. - Rust Cohle

  2. #22
    It has been so transparently broken for ~6 months. The only discussion needed is why it wasn't nerfed a long, long time ago.

  3. #23
    Outlaw will still be a top pick, arguably even THE top pick among M+ DPS specs. While their cleave damage is undeniably phenomenal, people have rightfully pointed out the entire catalog of useful other abilities they bring. The damage nerf will reign in their dominance, but it will not even come close to "killing" the spec as some doomsayers like to proclaim.

    While more class balancing in M+ is absolutely a good thing, I personally think that in the case of the MDI in particular we could perhaps do with some tournament rules that only apply there. Something that has been put forward was to limit the compositions - i.e. you'd essentially stipulate that MDI teams cannot use more than 1 of a given spec or class (depending on how strict you want to be). This of course would only apply to the MDI, not in the retail game itself. The idea behind it is to increase diversity and reward more creativity with party setups, which in turn would (hopefully) lead to a better viewing experience for the audience. I personally think it'd be more compelling entertainment if we had different approaches to comps battling each other rather than just seeing which of the two identical WDRRR teams makes a mistake somewhere and loses.

  4. #24
    To be honest, I am new to the Rogue class, after using my BfA boost on a brand new 110 Rogue character last year, but got him to 120, then quit playing him, because I could not get comfortable and figure out a good smooth rotation.

    Last week, I dusted him off after 9+ months, read stuff here and other sites, and found Outlaw to be really fun now in M+, and this was after the nerf just happened LOL. I ran just a couple low key M+ dungeons and did pretty good. I tried the same in Assassin, but I always found energy lacking and long wait times for spells to be up and ready.

    I only do low Mythic dungeons, and some LFR and Normal raiding. It seems Outlaw is still best for dungeons, but for single target stuff in Raids, I think Assassin might be best.

  5. #25
    blizzard cant fix the m+ balance utility problems because of Arena/Raids ....i mean on the on side they talk about class identity then specc identity and then on the othe side they give some specs to much utility and some none

    also giving a rogue spec so much has nothing to do with balancing i mean come on a outlaw lacks only a aoe stun besides that he has everything i dont speak about dmg here

    we also have the Healer problem of br its just not understandable that only a restodruid have one the only solution is to give it away from a resto druid or to make it baseline for all healers which i doubt they do because their philosophie is not to make every specc class the same ...tbh i think they should remove brs from m+ because they cant balance arround it something like a ankhtotem from a restoshaman is ok i my eyes skill it + you need to know when someone is dying etc.

    the other problem what i see is healer dmg and there a resto druid is also to viable rolling hots while rolling dots catweaving is just to strong while other healers need to cast and doing lesser dmg + the time to heal peopel ...and then you have the same shit with tankdmg warriors

    tbh this all matters only for 15+ keys under that you can run it with every comp

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Faesroll View Post
    Nice write up but you couldn't be more wrong. The only reason you see 3 rogues in MDI is because of the ridiculous damage. Other classes have good utility too you know?

    JB once said it well "If your spec does good damage, we'll find a way to fit you in the group".
    Outlaw Rogue got by far the best utility for M+ in the game. Other classes can compete with Outlaw on damage but they are far behind in terms of utility. Damage is not the main reason why people bring 3 Outlaw Rogues in MDI.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-08-13 at 06:19 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    But why punish an entire spec so much for only being good in M+ multi-target fights? It's currently one of the worst ST specs, it's only good point was the aoe part. So now it's aoe damage will be around other dps's aoe damage, while ST is still bottom 1-2. I think most rogues understood that our aoe damage in m+ is too good, but getting nerfed to the ground without any compensation is not the solution but again Blizz took the shorter route.



    This is not a fix, this is a band-aid at best. And why shouldn't people complain? We were aiming for specific weapons and items with very specific azerite trait combinations (like sin and sub) to have ok-ish dps in the few raid fights where we can cleave at least.
    Because you still are one of the best at AOE - plus all the extreme utility and survivability that comes with being a rogue - and if you don't like how bad your ST as outlaw is, you can just go sin and do some of the best ST in the game and pretty decent AOE. Rogues are still in a much better place than most DPS classes

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Faesroll View Post
    Nice write up but you couldn't be more wrong. The only reason you see 3 rogues in MDI is because of the ridiculous damage. Other classes have good utility too you know?

    JB once said it well "If your spec does good damage, we'll find a way to fit you in the group".
    Nah I'm sorry - you can't seriously believe other DPS have utility equal to rogues - mages and some ranged perhaps - but against other melee? Rogues have always been prized for more than their damage

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    so, they should never nerf anything because people put time and effort into them? how precisely do they attempt to fix things then?
    No, they should nerf them ASAP, when they see there's a real issue, not months and months after. At some point, as a player, you start to think "OK, this is the way this will play" and gear accordingly. I mean.. we're at 8.2 - it's reasonable to think that if they'd not nerfed outlaw during 8.0 or in 8.1 or in 8.1.5 or on the release of 8.2 that they were OK with it.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Outlaw Rogue got by far the best utility for M+ in the game. Other classes can compete with Outlaw on damage but they are far behind in terms of utility. Damage is not the main reason why people bring 3 Outlaw Rogues in MDI.
    You know nothing Jon Snow!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Khain View Post
    You know nothing Jon Snow!
    Even John Snow knows that Outlaw got crazy utility

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Even John Snow knows that Outlaw got crazy utility
    And you know what was it's greates utility? Yes! outdpsing every other class.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Khain View Post
    And you know what was it's greates utility? Yes! outdpsing every other class.
    Other classes can compete with Outlaw dps. Outlaw single target is not very strong. However, other classes can't compete with Outlaw in terms of utility.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Other classes can compete with Outlaw dps. Outlaw single target is not very strong. However, other classes can't compete with Outlaw in terms of utility.
    Do you even play rogue?

  14. #34
    Outlaw damage was pretty broken in M+.

    Insane utility is just an icing on OPAF cake. I'm not even sure what exactly is the QQ about, it's not like Outlaw will suddenly drop dead and do 0 DPS, pretty sure even with this nerf it will do a shitton of AoE anyway, just maybe not to the point of making alternatives obsolete.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Khain View Post
    Do you even play rogue?
    Haha I was about to ask you the same thing xD

    Yes I do main a Rogue and that is why I know how strong utility like Gouge and Feint are. This utility is not something which is flashy like shroud and people who only know Rogues by watching them in the MDI will most likely not notice the value of utility like Feint and Gouge.

    A spec like Unholy DK can easily outperform Outlaw on damage in some M+ settings, however Unholy will not be able to come near Outlaw in terms of utility.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Haha I was about to ask you the same thing xD

    Yes I do main a Rogue and that is why I know how strong utility like Gouge and Feint are. This utility is not something which is flashy like shroud and people who only know Rogues by watching them in the MDI will most likely not notice the value of utility like Feint and Gouge.

    A spec like Unholy DK can easily outperform Outlaw on damage in some M+ settings, however Unholy will not be able to come near Outlaw in terms of utility.
    Unholy could outperform outlaw in some very specific dungeons last season where the affix was just aoeing a bunch of mobs down, but now there's no way they can.

  17. #37
    Listen, rogues were brought for the damage output which has now gone to the dumpster. C'mon now if you thought rogues were brought for utility then you believe your girlfriend when she tells you its the motion of the ocean that counts and not the size of the boat. One button one trik.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Outlaw Rogue got by far the best utility for M+ in the game. Other classes can compete with Outlaw on damage but they are far behind in terms of utility. Damage is not the main reason why people bring 3 Outlaw Rogues in MDI.
    I can guarantee you no one will be running triple or even double outlaw rogue after the nerf. Even tho their so called OP utility got untouched.
    People don't forgive, they forget. - Rust Cohle

  19. #39
    Have all you doomsday messiahs even tried the new build? I'm at work and in the EU, so I haven't tested the new build yet. But i'm only simming 4k less than I did on the old build.
    Former hardcore raider of SlashCry - Kazzak EU
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Argonion View Post
    Have all you doomsday messiahs even tried the new build? I'm at work and in the EU, so I haven't tested the new build yet. But i'm only simming 4k less than I did on the old build.
    Remember that OP wanted a civil discussion

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