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  1. #21
    It has been so transparently broken for ~6 months. The only discussion needed is why it wasn't nerfed a long, long time ago.

  2. #22
    Outlaw will still be a top pick, arguably even THE top pick among M+ DPS specs. While their cleave damage is undeniably phenomenal, people have rightfully pointed out the entire catalog of useful other abilities they bring. The damage nerf will reign in their dominance, but it will not even come close to "killing" the spec as some doomsayers like to proclaim.

    While more class balancing in M+ is absolutely a good thing, I personally think that in the case of the MDI in particular we could perhaps do with some tournament rules that only apply there. Something that has been put forward was to limit the compositions - i.e. you'd essentially stipulate that MDI teams cannot use more than 1 of a given spec or class (depending on how strict you want to be). This of course would only apply to the MDI, not in the retail game itself. The idea behind it is to increase diversity and reward more creativity with party setups, which in turn would (hopefully) lead to a better viewing experience for the audience. I personally think it'd be more compelling entertainment if we had different approaches to comps battling each other rather than just seeing which of the two identical WDRRR teams makes a mistake somewhere and loses.

  3. #23
    To be honest, I am new to the Rogue class, after using my BfA boost on a brand new 110 Rogue character last year, but got him to 120, then quit playing him, because I could not get comfortable and figure out a good smooth rotation.

    Last week, I dusted him off after 9+ months, read stuff here and other sites, and found Outlaw to be really fun now in M+, and this was after the nerf just happened LOL. I ran just a couple low key M+ dungeons and did pretty good. I tried the same in Assassin, but I always found energy lacking and long wait times for spells to be up and ready.

    I only do low Mythic dungeons, and some LFR and Normal raiding. It seems Outlaw is still best for dungeons, but for single target stuff in Raids, I think Assassin might be best.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Faesroll View Post
    Nice write up but you couldn't be more wrong. The only reason you see 3 rogues in MDI is because of the ridiculous damage. Other classes have good utility too you know?

    JB once said it well "If your spec does good damage, we'll find a way to fit you in the group".
    Outlaw Rogue got by far the best utility for M+ in the game. Other classes can compete with Outlaw on damage but they are far behind in terms of utility. Damage is not the main reason why people bring 3 Outlaw Rogues in MDI.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-08-13 at 06:19 PM.

  5. #25
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    so, they should never nerf anything because people put time and effort into them? how precisely do they attempt to fix things then?
    No, they should nerf them ASAP, when they see there's a real issue, not months and months after. At some point, as a player, you start to think "OK, this is the way this will play" and gear accordingly. I mean.. we're at 8.2 - it's reasonable to think that if they'd not nerfed outlaw during 8.0 or in 8.1 or in 8.1.5 or on the release of 8.2 that they were OK with it.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Outlaw Rogue got by far the best utility for M+ in the game. Other classes can compete with Outlaw on damage but they are far behind in terms of utility. Damage is not the main reason why people bring 3 Outlaw Rogues in MDI.
    You know nothing Jon Snow!

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Khain View Post
    You know nothing Jon Snow!
    Even John Snow knows that Outlaw got crazy utility

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Even John Snow knows that Outlaw got crazy utility
    And you know what was it's greates utility? Yes! outdpsing every other class.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Khain View Post
    And you know what was it's greates utility? Yes! outdpsing every other class.
    Other classes can compete with Outlaw dps. Outlaw single target is not very strong. However, other classes can't compete with Outlaw in terms of utility.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Other classes can compete with Outlaw dps. Outlaw single target is not very strong. However, other classes can't compete with Outlaw in terms of utility.
    Do you even play rogue?

  11. #31
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Outlaw damage was pretty broken in M+.

    Insane utility is just an icing on OPAF cake. I'm not even sure what exactly is the QQ about, it's not like Outlaw will suddenly drop dead and do 0 DPS, pretty sure even with this nerf it will do a shitton of AoE anyway, just maybe not to the point of making alternatives obsolete.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Khain View Post
    Do you even play rogue?
    Haha I was about to ask you the same thing xD

    Yes I do main a Rogue and that is why I know how strong utility like Gouge and Feint are. This utility is not something which is flashy like shroud and people who only know Rogues by watching them in the MDI will most likely not notice the value of utility like Feint and Gouge.

    A spec like Unholy DK can easily outperform Outlaw on damage in some M+ settings, however Unholy will not be able to come near Outlaw in terms of utility.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Haha I was about to ask you the same thing xD

    Yes I do main a Rogue and that is why I know how strong utility like Gouge and Feint are. This utility is not something which is flashy like shroud and people who only know Rogues by watching them in the MDI will most likely not notice the value of utility like Feint and Gouge.

    A spec like Unholy DK can easily outperform Outlaw on damage in some M+ settings, however Unholy will not be able to come near Outlaw in terms of utility.
    Unholy could outperform outlaw in some very specific dungeons last season where the affix was just aoeing a bunch of mobs down, but now there's no way they can.

  14. #34
    Listen, rogues were brought for the damage output which has now gone to the dumpster. C'mon now if you thought rogues were brought for utility then you believe your girlfriend when she tells you its the motion of the ocean that counts and not the size of the boat. One button one trik.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Outlaw Rogue got by far the best utility for M+ in the game. Other classes can compete with Outlaw on damage but they are far behind in terms of utility. Damage is not the main reason why people bring 3 Outlaw Rogues in MDI.
    I can guarantee you no one will be running triple or even double outlaw rogue after the nerf. Even tho their so called OP utility got untouched.
    People don't forgive, they forget. - Rust Cohle

  16. #36
    Have all you doomsday messiahs even tried the new build? I'm at work and in the EU, so I haven't tested the new build yet. But i'm only simming 4k less than I did on the old build.
    Former hardcore raider of SlashCry - Kazzak EU
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Argonion View Post
    Have all you doomsday messiahs even tried the new build? I'm at work and in the EU, so I haven't tested the new build yet. But i'm only simming 4k less than I did on the old build.
    Remember that OP wanted a civil discussion

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The reason why Outlaw is so good in MDI is the utility and I'm not only talking about shroud.

    Even if Outlaw didn't have shroud they would still have a crazy good utility package:

    - Gouge
    - Feint
    - Cheat Death (essentially a combat ress… bringing 3 Rogues essentially gives you 3 extra CR's.. think about that :O)
    - Vanish (outlaw doesn't have to use vanish as a part of the combat rotation)
    - Riposte (100 % parry)
    - Cloak
    - Cheap shot
    - Blind
    - Sap
    - Tricks
    But the rogues had this utility even before. And there were no 3-rogue groups before - damage AND utility matters, and utility comes second. I also think that having a warrior tank with AoE stun allowed the 3-rogue comps to thrive and without the warr they wouldn't be as popular. I may be wrong.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Faesroll View Post
    The only reason you see 3 rogues in MDI is because of the ridiculous damage.
    And 3 Shrouds, which let you skip a lot of annoying trash.

    Outlaw damage is still ahead even after these nerfs.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    But the rogues had this utility even before. And there were no 3-rogue groups before - damage AND utility matters, and utility comes second. I also think that having a warrior tank with AoE stun allowed the 3-rogue comps to thrive and without the warr they wouldn't be as popular. I may be wrong.
    Damage is of course also required. But the difference between an Outlaw Rogue and a Fury Warrior is not damage, it’s utility.

    If you gave the Utility of an Outlaw Rogue to Fury then you would start to see 3 Fury warriors in the MDI.

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